I think we need a fourth option:

"Grammar is misunderstood"

a bear eats shoots and leaves

without grammar that could mean two very diferent things.

1. A bear eats, shoots and leaves. as in a polar bear will have a meal, shoot someone, and then leave the scene.

2. A polar bear eats shoots and leaves. Basically food for a bear are shoots and leaves.

Well I saw that on a documentry about pedants called the pedants revolt... so I thought I may aswell share.

"Admin" wrote:

eats shoots and leaves

I read that book

I always get confused....when do you use THEN & THAN?

"Muslim Bro" wrote:

I always get confused....when do you use THEN & THAN?

They are different parts of speech. "Then" is a conditional adverb, "than" is a comparative conjunction.

"If the mechanic doesn't say otherwise, then assume the left prop is moving faster than the right"

Ok...kinda get it now.

"Muslim Bro" wrote:

Ok...kinda get it now.

It doesn't really have much to do with the price of tea in China. And who else voted "Click here if you are Don Karnage" ?

English grammar is complicated. Too complicated. It’s (its?) hard for a foreigner to remember all the intricacies. When I was at Uni I lost lots (a lot?) of marks for bad grammer.

English grammar seems hard because most state schools in the UK don't really teach it. All I can remember on the subject was being told about nouns. verbs, adjectives, and commas. We never went into it in much depth, and teachers didn't make a big deal about it in our written work.

It was only at University that we covered grammar but that was probably because of the course I did, and nothing else.

I don't think it's that difficult it's just that we weren't taught it.

I'm not trying to link everything to Islam but seriously Arabic grammar takes the biscuit. Hard is not the word. It's crazy plurals for not just 2 or more but 3 or more 4 or more. It's not as simple as adding on an S as we do in English. A lot of other rules too, pick up a book you'll see what I mean.

"yashmaki" wrote:

English grammar seems hard because most state schools in the UK don't really teach it. All I can remember on the subject was being told about nouns. verbs, adjectives, and commas. We never went into it in much depth, and teachers didn't make a big deal about it in our written work.

Why is that?

When did the government decide that correct use of language is not important enough to be taught in schools?

I agree with Yash.

English has always been my strong point since I love reading and writing, however for the first time ever (at post graduate level) I’m learning grammar, morphology, phonemes, word origins etc etc

And it’s SO hard.

So…here’s a few questions for you English boffins, derived from a practise paper of mine.

1-Explain why the “ch” is pronounced differently in “chef” and “chaos”.

2-Chef, Cosmos, Urban, pyjamas and Piccolo originate from which country?

3-Explain why we do not say “more better” in standard English?

4-Explain the grammatical function of the two commas in the following sentence.

The dog, which had stopped barking, was barking its tail.

I don't know but that's the impression I got from my school days. My sister says the same. I don't know about the rest of you guys and girls, how well did your secondary school cover it?

I passed English GCSE with an A...despite the fact that my spelling and grammar is awful.

Grammar is only worth 5% of your final grade. I've learnt in my PGCE course that teachers do not teach grammar...they just correct childrens grammatical mistakes.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I agree with Yash.

English has always been my strong point since I love reading and writing, however for the first time ever (at post graduate level) I’m learning grammar, morphology, phonemes, word origins etc etc

And it’s SO hard.

So…here’s a few questions for you English boffins, derived from a practise paper of mine.

1-Explain why the “ch” is pronounced differently in “chef” and “chaos”.

2-Chef, Cosmos, Urban, pyjamas and Piccolo originate from which country?

3-Explain why we do not say “more better” in standard English?

4-Explain the grammatical function of the two commas in the following sentence.

The dog, which had stopped barking, was barking its tail.

1. Chef is french, Chaos is greek and use their respective pronunciations
2. Chef is french, Cosmos is greek, urban is latin, pyjamas i'm guessing is arabic or turkish, piccolo from Italy
3. because best is the superlative of better - taken from german "gut besser am besten"
4. A parenthetical phrase

Regarding word orgins.

How can I tell which language words orginate from? What gives it away?

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Regarding word orgins.

How can I tell which language words orginate from? What gives it away?

pre and post fixes usually give it away - especially with greek or latin; most likely if it ends in "os" or includes a greek letter like "Chi" in "Chaos" it's greek. If it ends in us, i, or a it is latin (especially if it has a latin word in it).

If it's from some other language outside of english (like norsk) it's more difficult I think.

"latifah" wrote:

Why is that?

When did the government decide that correct use of language is not important enough to be taught in schools?

As soon as political correctness became fashionable.

Can't spell? you may be dyslexic. not your fault.

Then again, I at times cannot read my own writing. (That may have cause me to get 44% in a massive three hour exam right at the end of my degree... I am certain I should have got 85% plus. and normally my predisciotns in exams are ver good. a couple of percentages off... but being 40-50 percent off is a njew experience. I should have questioned it, but was too thankful to leave uni.)

Oh, and another question: are dyslexics bad at maths? afterall if you can jumble up letters, why not numbers?

"yashmaki" wrote:

English grammar seems hard because most state schools in the UK don't really teach it. All I can remember on the subject was being told about nouns. verbs, adjectives, and commas. We never went into it in much depth, and teachers didn't make a big deal about it in our written work.

true.

"yashmaki" wrote:

I'm not trying to link everything to Islam but seriously Arabic grammar takes the biscuit. Hard is not the word. It's crazy plurals for not just 2 or more but 3 or more 4 or more. It's not as simple as adding on an S as we do in English. A lot of other rules too, pick up a book you'll see what I mean.

lol also true. there's singular, dual and plural in arabic. but that's the simplest part. arabic grammar is very complex.

Something interesting that my Enlgish teacher forwarded to me.

Quote:

Poor Writing Costs Taxpayers Millions
July 04, 2005 9:55 AM EDT

States spend nearly a quarter of a billion dollars a year on remedial
writing instruction for their employees, according to a new report that says
the indirect costs of sloppy writing probably hurt taxpayers even more.

The National Commission on Writing, in a report to be released Tuesday, says
that good writing skills are at least as important in the public sector as
in private industry. Poor writing not only befuddles citizens but also slows
down the government as bureaucrats struggle with unclear instructions or
have to redo poorly written work.

"It's impossible to calculate the ultimate cost of lost productivity because
people have to read things two and three times," said Arkansas Gov. Mike
Huckabee, vice chairman of the National Governors Association, which
conducted the survey for the commission.

The commission, established by the College Board, drew attention with its
first report in 2003. That outlined problems with how writing is taught in
American schools and proposed remedies. The group's second report, last
year, tried to drum up support for writing education by highlighting the
value that business and industry leaders place on writing skills.

This year, the commission surveyed human resource directors who oversee
nearly 2.7 million state government employees, and found writing skills even
more important than in the private sector.

While two-thirds of companies surveyed in the 2004 report said writing was
an important responsibility for workers, 100 percent of the 49 states
responding to the anonymous survey said it was. More than 75 percent said
they take writing skills into account when hiring.

But while 70 percent of state managers said large majorities of their
professional employees had adequate skills, just one-third said clerical and
support staff did. The report estimates the states spend $221 million
annually on remedial writing training, sometimes sending workers to
$400-per-employee classes.

"You have to be able to write, convert an idea and turn it into words," said
Bob Kerrey, the former U.S. senator and governor from Nebraska, who is
chairman of the commission.

In public office, "I read things that were absolutely incomprehensible,"
Kerrey said. He shudders to think how Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of
Independence, published 229 years ago Monday, would have read in standard,
government-worker bureaucrat-speak.

"It would be 10 times as long, one-tenth as comprehensive, and would have
lacked all inspiration," Kerrey said.

In a conference call interview last week, Kerrey, Huckabee, and Gaston
Caperton - a former West Virginia governor who now leads the College Board -
said many of the costs when state employees cannot express themselves
clearly are hard to pin down. E-mail, which is so easy that workers can fire
something off without thinking it through, may compound the problem.

"Increasingly as more things are done electronically, or via e-mail or
blackberry, I think we tend to almost get even more sloppy," Huckabee said.
"The truth is we need to get clear and concise. That adds to productivity."

Another hidden cost is that good ideas may never see the light of day.

"I see that all the time in writing and political speaking," Huckabee said.
"There are some really bright people who can't communicate and as a result
their ideas probably aren't given the attention they deserve."

The commission is calling for more Congressional funding for the National
Writing Project, a professional development program for teachers, and what
Kerrey says are proven methods for improving writing instruction in
classrooms.

But the biggest boost to writing instruction may come from the decision by
the College Board, under Caperton, to add a written essay to the SAT college
entrance exam. The essay, which debuted in March, is expected to cause many
high school English teachers to put more emphasis on composition. Critics,
however, say the essay is formulaic, coachable, and a poor way to test the
kind of writing skills students need in college.

Sources: [url]http://www.writingcommission.org/[/url]

"Don Karnage" wrote:

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Regarding word orgins.

How can I tell which language words orginate from? What gives it away?

pre and post fixes usually give it away - especially with greek or latin; most likely if it ends in "os" or includes a greek letter like "Chi" in "Chaos" it's greek. If it ends in us, i, or a it is latin (especially if it has a latin word in it).

If it's from some other language outside of english (like norsk) it's more difficult I think.

Wow...I guess one needs to learn Latin and needs to know about greek letters to master this. :?

Don Karnage,

I do apologise. There I was having fun and posting willy-nilly and the next thing I knew I was in this topic clicking in a little circle that said "Click here if you are Don Karnage", and I put that circle there! :oops: Please forgive me. Also I have named myself "The Great 100" and there is a touch of your inspiration in that, so I thank you.

Grammer is extremely important. Jus try n read an original Shakesphere (sp?) its freakin stupid. Wat the english teachers dunt tell u is, English Grammer, and the english dictionary werent invented until a century+ after shakesphere.