"seema*" wrote:

"irfghan" wrote:

"seema*" wrote:

no no Constantine that totally is racist...

Duh

what do you mean have i been had by some elaborate joke cos i cant still believe he wrote that was he kidding i thought when he said honestly that he was meaning what he said - please put me out of my misery

lol seems read my second comment at the bottom of page 8; like I said, i'm not a racist.

I have lots of black friends - obviously if I were a racist I wouldn't have black friends!

deleted

my heart cant take no more so like Med i'm gonna say i've said what i was going to say to DTC and will leave it at that no more Birmingham riots thread for me

constantine,

You make assumptions based on YOUR understanding of my posts. I don't blame any one thing for the attitude of black people where I live culture or other wise, there may be a thousand "reasons", culture, passed treatment, social deprevation, I don't have that answer. I really do not know. But that attitude IS there.

Be as clever with your words as you like thats your prerogative. Be as sarcastic as you like my opinion is my opinion what you say is yours. Just leave it there.

.

"DTC" wrote:

constantine,

You make assumptions based on YOUR understanding of my posts. I don't blame any one thing for the attitude of black people where I live culture or other wise, there may be a thousand "reasons", culture, passed treatment, social deprevation, I don't have that answer. I really do not know. But that attitude IS there.

Be as clever with your words as you like thats your prerogative. Be as sarcastic as you like my opinion is my opinion what you say is yours. Just leave it there.

.

And I was so hoping you would blindly agree, what a beautiful trap I had planned.

Ahh well, it's more honest to attack directly

DTC, in normal situations you would have the moral high ground arguing you have your opinion I have mine.

But even you have a more nuanced understanding of the world i'm sure.

Racism and it's best friend prejudice (even when the racist won't admit it) must be beat down, trampled, disproven and disregarded - never ignored.

The sum effect of what you are saying is racist.

This would all have been an entirely different discussion if you had simply said "the people in my neighborhood are rude and aggressive"

But you took that a step further and said "the blacks in my neighborhood are rude and aggressive"

You are either ludicrously challenging our sensibility by suggesting that local black people are rude and aggressive - so often, and in such isolated prominence that you could single them out; or you are attempting to assign characteristics to a racial minority based on percieved personal experience.

What does being black have anything to do with being rude and aggressive?

It matters little whether you are assigning characteristics to a racial minority based on percieved personal experience, or drawing conclusions about a person based on those characteristics you have assigned to the goup they belong to.

It's all part of the same process - and you cannot divorce the one from the other and tell us that makes it not racism.

Judge Scalia once wrote:

[i]One of our most cherished constitutional and societal principles... that an individual's tastes, beliefs, and abilities should be assessed on their own merits rather than by categorizing that individual as a member of a racial group presumed to think and behave in a particular way[/i]

That is the essence of the double edged sword of racism ~ and whether or not you fail to see that is irrelevant.

At least now you understand why we are all disgusted with your comments.

I could sum our conversation up into two responses:

DTC: The blacks in my area are rude and aggressive
Dave: That's what you see

constantine,

You appear to have a greater understanding of my mind than even I do a noteable feat from several thousand miles.

I am kind of tired of repeating myself now but here goes. I was and am commenting on a particular group of people in a particular area of Birmingham, it was not a blanket statement it was and I say again, I am saying what I am certain a lot of people think, in my opinion. If you say that telling the truth as I say it is racist then carry on I really don't care what you think. Being called a racist certainly bothers me but that is your opinion.

The reasons that I said that the MAJORITY of black people, not all, as you keep trying to say, is because that is my experience. If I meant all, I would have said all you can certainly believe that. I have no qualms about speaking my mind, least of all on a web-site forum where no one knows who I am. How stupid would that be?

And that being the case I would be condemning my BLACK friends, you know the friends I have either made up or are using in an attempt to hide my real feelings, ("I've got black friends so i'm not racist") and that, trust me I could and would never do. And wether you believe that really means a gnats testicle to me.

You are assuming that I understand and therefore agree with "all" on here how bloody arrogant. Are you "all disgusted" with my comments. when taken for what they are and how I meant them ? I sincerely hope not.

If there are others on here that live around there please let me know, I'll happily chat to you on here or on Lozells Rd if you like I don't mind I have NOTHING to hide or be ashamed of. Another perspective may well be extremely beneficial, either way.

Bored now, going for a coffee, but not black coffee, hey constantine!!

:roll:

It is not too much to express concern at the way you are feeling about the blacks in your neighbourhood. It is too much to suggest that your feeling is an accurate observation. Especially in this case, you do not seem to have a constructive way forward. That is troubling. The upshot for me will be an insight into one Muslim in that area, and maybe I can use that to understand the tensions, but it is not an insight into what is going on, just a pessimistic judgement. DTC, as you say, the reasons are not useful. What would be useful is some kind of positive action. Anyway I would describe that expression of a broad view on blacks in the neighbourhood as racist, since it generalises about black people (ie is not specific to any particular rude people in your experience), just as a neat way of classifying it as unacceptable to me. That doesn't mean you are necessarily racist, and I don't see why you bother being defensive if you think you have been misinterpreted, just apologise for putting it that way and clarify, if you like.

Hi 100,

Nice to speak to you.

The reasons I have said what I have are clear, I am not going to say them again.

I AM NOT SAYING ALL BLACKS.

The "conversation" is or was about the disturbances which were between asian and black youths. And the innocent people that were victimised for the sake of a rumour, it kind of grew from there.

I have sent a P.M. to one member on here, who I felt that I was unecessarily harsh toward with what I see as part of the solution, but to be perfectly honest I don't want to start another debate.

I didn't think I was being defensive, just stating, over and over, my thoughts and reasons for them. If somone had questioned me maybe I could have put it differently but I think it would have ended in the same place anyway.

And actually I am not Muslim, I don't have a particular belief structure. My mother is a church goer but that is as far as it goes I'm afraid.

Thanks,

Bye.

Bye!

btw I have just reread DTC's comments and it looks like he's a pretty straight guy and I did him an injustice with my patronising summary just then. He has put in all sorts of specifiers like 'most', 'in this area' and the like, and explained that his issue is with an attitude, not black people. He might have put it differently but, fair play to the guy. I commented on the basis of the last couple of exchanges and I shouldn't have.

DTC u aint a muslim?

Bro u spk so well, why aint u a muslim? I DEMAND an explanation!

I think he was half joking/half making an overture toward explaining anything DTC was unclear of.

"Constantine" wrote:

I think he was half joking/half making an overture toward explaining anything DTC was unclear of.

yes dave, couldnt have put it better myself.

admin,

"...most people are racist..." thats exactly right, using your definition of racist, I do prefer prejudiced myself, as a description. Thats because I have always taken racist to mean the belief in single race superiority, as I have said before, racism being "possible" as a direct result / consequence or by-product of having the power to be racist.

I do think that the "acceptance" of racism is not peculiar to a particular race, again using your definition of racism. I do not though think that racism can ever be accepted, really, but rather I think that it tends, sadly, to be ignored - as a matter of fact.

One or two things in your last post that I would like you to clarify if you would.

[b][i]"...are you abhorrent to the fact you think just like a non-muslim on some subjects?"[/i][/b]
Does that mean that med must think like all muslims to be right, or that any one that does not think like a muslim on some subjects is wrong? Just curious.

[i][b]"However there is a level of racism that is accepted by society. If one goes past that, it is frowned upon". [/b][/i]

[i][b]"For different people that level is at a different place".[/b][/i]

That just sounds to me like you are saying that some racism is "excusable" in certain circumstances as long as it doesn't go too far, is that right?

You would obviously put yourself below the "unacceptable" line.

Please don't take this personally, I really am just asking for clarification, if I may.

Med,

I am not a muslim purely and simply because I had religion kind of crammed down my throat as a child and as I got older, just couldn't see the truth of what I had been taught in the "organised" religions of the world, I suppose that is a bit flimsy really because I should have realised that sometimes the messenger doesn't always reflect the real message.

I think now the only excuse that I have for not following a particular religion is laziness. I really can't be bothered nor, realistically, could I commit myself in the right way, wholeheartedly, to God. I don't think that anyone should commit to God when it suits them, if they do they should do it properly or not at all. I think that I know a lot about religion generally, but I know that there would still be a lot to learn.

Thats it, briefly.

"DTC" wrote:

Med,

I am not a muslim purely and simply because I had religion kind of crammed down my throat as a child and as I got older, just couldn't see the truth of what I had been taught in the "organised" religions of the world, I suppose that is a bit flimsy really because I should have realised that sometimes the messenger doesn't always reflect the real message.

I think now the only excuse that I have for not following a particular religion is laziness. I really can't be bothered nor, realistically, could I commit myself in the right way, wholeheartedly, to God. I don't think that anyone should commit to God when it suits them, if they do they should do it properly or not at all. I think that I know a lot about religion generally, but I know that there would still be a lot to learn.

Thats it, briefly.

lol ironic - I know lotsa people like that. I'm kinda the opposite... since my parents really didn't care about me all that much and since they didn't really care about God all that much we made excellent friends (enemy of my enemy). It's funny though I dunno what your orgnized religious bckground was, but i'm protestant in the US and it seems like i'm the only one that isn't pushy and psychotic about it.

Can't do the school prayer group because they are all too busy shouting Jesus saves! at each other.

So it's easy to see how people could get turned off if that's what they were putting up with as a kid.

DTC, if you know the basics of Islaam then Brother I must urge you to accept Islaam, if you have questions they will be aswered, but it is apparent from your posts that ALLAH has graced you with a good amount of intelligence, use it brother.

Brother Islam calls away from the confines of worshipping created beings, into the vastness of worshipping the ONE True Creator, it calls people away from servitude and subjugation to non-enitities and offers servitude to the Lord of the Worlds, it offers you then eternitiy in paradise as opposed to the finite pleasures of this world.

My brother, accept Islaam for your salvation. I do not ask you for money nor do I ask anything personally from you, if you accept Islaam, and I pray that you do, it will bring wealth upon wealth in your life, viz the wealth of pure, clean and pristine faith.

If laziness is an issue, my brother procastrination never got any1 anything. Time is running out, how much will you regret if you decide on the truth too late?

Think about it, bruv.

constantine,

That is interesting. Sometimes I think that God, in whatever guise you think of him, finds you, it just takes a little eye opener to light the touch paper.

My background is "Church of England" thats protestant isn't it?

I suppose if somone had given me the bible as a kid and taught me to read, I could have kept the confusion out of the lack of understanding. Instead I was taught the "right" version of the way and meaning of serving God and left to discern the facts from the gobbledy gook. A fact finding mission that only led to more confusion.

Whats wrong with "jesus saves"? Just asking.

med,

I really do appreciate your words and thoughts.

Its not as simple as just accepting really. I just don't have the inclinaton or motivation. I think what you say about time running out may well be true, but unless I believe that as a fact and am prepared to do something about it there is little point thinking or worrying about it.

Thanks again.

"DTC" wrote:

constantine,

That is interesting. Sometimes I think that God, in whatever guise you think of him, finds you, it just takes a little eye opener to light the touch paper.

My background is "Church of England" thats protestant isn't it?

I suppose if somone had given me the bible as a kid and taught me to read, I could have kept the confusion out of the lack of understanding. Instead I was taught the "right" version of the way and meaning of serving God and left to discern the facts from the gobbledy gook. A fact finding mission that only led to more confusion.

Whats wrong with "jesus saves"? Just asking.

You sound like the early Christian community before they got doctrinal. The original confession for Christians was simply "follow me" - a point Jesus often made in the bible.

Honestly my problem with "Jesus Saves" - at least in the American Protestant tradition is that it's an attempt to "boil it down" to a soundbite. I think it downplays the idea of genuine repentance and it plays a part in this whole "club christianity" thing. Like basically if you are a card carrying member of the Christian faith your sins are all forgiven so don't be too concerned about that ~ and oh yea, since you obviously worked hard for your money screw the poor it's all a reward! That's what we get at home from Falwell and Pat Robertson.

I don't really have anything against them or people who follow them because of that, it's wrong to turn your back just because they aren't 100% in agreement with me.

I don't have such a big problem with organized religion - as long as it doesn't result in factionalizing and stuff. We all have different views and everything but excommunicating everybody the way we often do and getting violent about it is a complete step in the wrong direction.

Outta curiousity, unless I misread you, you're not saying that you aren't religious, you just got turned off by the thousand and twenty opinions everybody has, and retreated insularly?

Kinda like you have a pretty big file to throw at God on judgement day when he asks why you didn't get it right and you can respond "well look buddy you threw me down there told me to follow the right people and then gave me 60,000 people each telling me they're right and everyone else is wrong"

"DTC" wrote:

Oh and here is the killer, I am very happily engaged to a very beautiful Asian girl. .

maybe Med was upset to hear DTC say he was not muslim because of the above thinking that he was marrying a muslim girl?

"seema*" wrote:

"DTC" wrote:

Oh and here is the killer, I am very happily engaged to a very beautiful Asian girl. .

maybe Med was upset to hear DTC say he was not muslim because of the above thinking that he was marrying a muslim girl?

actually, I was upset because DTC clearly has some very good understanding of the world around him, he seems to me to be intelligent, and curious and able to think independently. I hope the best for him, I hope Islam for him.

And k DTC bro, u acknowledged my invite, the rest is upto you bruv.

constantine,

I think in the strictest sense of the word "religious" no I'm not. That to me personally is because I cannot commit 100% or even to the best of my ability, to god.

I do very firmly believe, leaving aside the kind of indoctrination of religious "understanding" that I had, that there is a "designer" of all things, I personally think to deny that would be ignorant.

I think that I [i][b]have[/b][/i] been "turned off" by the over elaboration of the whole "religious" circus, of that we know best and are surely right attitude.
That really shouldn't be what religion is about imo, but that is what it has become or is becoming.

Admin,

I don't think that racism and prejudice are as closely linked as some would like. I think that some would like the two to be equal, in terms of "seriousness" but I don't think that they are.

Racism is, to me, too serious an issue to be compared to cultural, historical, religious, caste or any other "in-built" difference "worthy" of that aire of superiority that exists on a personal, family, tribal, regional basis, these are not always [i][b]racially[/b][/i] motivated. But not only that I think that sometimes we all have this need to feel a part of something that we can associate most strongly with. In your case I assume, your Pakistani heritage.

That too can be confused with "racism" if you are going to use that word so freely, or as a way to label people as separatisit or not "community minded", when it isn't at all. I don't think that people should have to "integrate" and risk losing part of their traditional way of living to avoid having another politically correct label put on them.

I think that you have the definition of racism the wrong way around. Prejudice may be part of your overall definition of racism, but not the other way around.

Britain, America, South Africa and parts of the old Soviet bloc, in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, and to an extent in places still are, examples of pure racism, in particular but not exclusively. Discriminating against a whole race(s), to me is racism.

We really are in danger, imo, of losing the seriousness of that word if we let it become watered down by, traditional "prejudices".

We will probably never agree but "spite" is just too soft a word for racism, for me.

Where did the "20 thugs" thing come from?

Of course, twenty anythings coming towards me at night would frighten me. I could get intimidated quite easily by one or two "thugs" given the right context.

BTW.

My "very beautiful Asian girl", was born into a "Muslim" family. But they are really, as she puts it not practicing. They have husbands and wives from various erm, erm backgrounds, they drink a lot, well the men do. They don't really do any of the Islamic things that they "should". Until it has come to her marrying a "bloody gora", (Sorry her translation not mine). Now they keep throwing, not literally, the Qur'an at her. Oh well, thats prejudice for you.

:roll:

"DTC" wrote:

My "very beautiful Asian girl", was born into a "Muslim" family. But they are really, as she puts it not practicing. They have husbands and wives from various erm, erm backgrounds, they drink a lot, well the men do. They don't really do any of the Islamic things that they "should". Until it has come to her marrying a "bloody gora", (Sorry her translation not mine). Now they keep throwing, not literally, the Qur'an at her. Oh well, thats prejudice for you.

:roll:

Yeah that is just [color=red][size=24]A LITTLE BIT[/size][/color] annoying.

Just tell them your Arab white, they'll love you straight off, maybe. :?

"DTC" wrote:

My "very beautiful Asian girl", was born into a "Muslim" family. But they are really, as she puts it not practicing. They have husbands and wives from various erm, erm backgrounds, they drink a lot, well the men do. They don't really do any of the Islamic things that they "should". Until it has come to her marrying a "bloody gora", (Sorry her translation not mine). Now they keep throwing, not literally, the Qur'an at her. Oh well, thats prejudice for you.

:roll:

lol... know the feelin.

Forget about em - just don't let them break her down... that's a tough situation

Hi constantine,

Absolutely not, she is quite determined. It is really tough for her obviously which does make it a little tougher for me of course.

But I am, as you may have noticed, quite thick skinned I do face off with them sometimes but that just makes it harder for her. It has been going on for so long I can almost quote as much of the Qur'an as they can on this subject.

Anyway "lol...know the feelin". How so?

:?:

"DTC" wrote:

Hi constantine,

Absolutely not, she is quite determined. It is really tough for her obviously which does make it a little tougher for me of course.

But I am, as you may have noticed, quite thick skinned I do face off with them sometimes but that just makes it harder for her. It has been going on for so long I can almost quote as much of the Qur'an as they can on this subject.

Anyway "lol...know the feelin". How so?

:?:

Yea that's hard on everybody - just stressful everytime you see her parents because of the possibility of another awkward disaster. lol hopefully she's as "thick skinned" as you.

My girlfriends parents aren't too thrilled that i'm not a latino and not a catholic, they love the idea i'm white though (go figure) - they aren't as bad as my parents though.

She's a "criolo" spanish mexican, but my parent's just can't get past the mexican part. :roll:

Ironically her parents would be furious if she married a "mexican" - like a mestizo or something.

They don't really rely on religion so much - it's like whenever I am around her parents will talk to her in spanish about me, and whenever she is around my parents make jokes about "sleeping with the help" and stuff, and for gods sake we went to andover together.

Just nastiness all the way around... nobody really cared until recently when they noticed we've been together for a nerve racking amount of time and we're getting close to a marriageable age.

I think it's wearing her down a little...

Anyway - I misjudged you, you couldn't possibly be a racist and be in that situation. It's like banging your head against a wall that's got emotional baggage and isn't afraid to use it. I apologize for putting words in your mouth and jumping to conclusions. - lol I guess you were already vindicated in that I was forced to rely on opinions from Justice Scalia. Hope everything works out with your fiance.

your bird is a spanish mexica?

perfect blend

she got any sisters?

j/k

"Darth V-Hayder" wrote:

your bird is a spanish mexica?

perfect blend

she got any sisters?

j/k

ASTAGIRULLAH :shock:

Fear ALLAH Hayder

lol

the Med in all of us lives on

its a salient feature of the ahlul bidah to grow short beards, pretent to be aashiq-e-rasul and yet still have a thing for latino women. any faults in myself are from me, and not from my teachers

May Allah subhana wa'taala convert our sins to rewards and protect us from the Shaytaan

AMEEN Ya Rabbal A'lameen