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Dave I got a qsn for u.
Are mormons puritans?
I heard they have loads of kids. Sounds good
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
They have similar dress. Thats why you've linked them.
Puritans are protestant whereas Mormons have their own sect of christianity which is pretty heretical by protestant/catholic/eastern orthodox standards.
Mormons are heretics.
The Puritans were a group of anglicans who were angry with the church of England and they broke off and practiced a very strict interpretation of the bible. England had a rough time with them (the Long Parliament et al) and basically exported them to America in an attempt to keep them under control. American Puritanism was just as austere however not militant. They formed the first multiethnic state in the US, and allowed anyone regardless of color, gender or class to vote as long as they were recognized as elect by God.
Local Native Americans often converted (contrary to popular opinion this was not under pressure in the Puritan Colonies) and would find themselves voting along side whites.
Frankly I have no problem with them other than the fact they wore buckles on their heads and were generally depressing people.
The Virginia colonies were a little different - they were the John Smith "convert or die" fortune seeking adventurers and ironically enough the Puritans thought they were barbarians. There are lots of old Puritan folk tales about not wandering into the woods or leaving the village because that's where the devil worshippers live.
Mormons are a heretical sect of Christians in Utah that follow the prophet joseph smith - a man that claimed the original native americans were actually the jews spoken about in the old testament. He claimed to have spoken to two angels who gave him the book of Mormon outlining Jesus second coming to these original native Americans. He tried to form his own country and built himself a rather impressive army but opted for integration at the last moment.
They practice polygamy, follow a false prophet and engage in other heretical activities. I don't consider them Christian, although many do with extreme reservation.
Another qsn.
In the catholic mass there is a ritual called raising of the host?
What does it mean because I was reading that if a person did not pay attention properly to the raising of the host, that would be enough of a reason for the holy inquisition to start investigating the person for heresy? What religion is dave?
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
I meant that the split was a growing threat and I was referring more to the grass roots level.
I know that most of the so-called christian right leaders are just puppets of Reverend Sun Myung Moon who is hardly commited to anything resembling christianity.
No they don't. Some wear plain clothes but nothing really out of the ordinary.
The Amish and other Menonites do wear very old styled clothes and basically live in the 18th century. That is because they believe all modern conveniences are naturally a way to corruption and materialism.
Fascinating people - I have a great deal of respect for them. They work very hard, are notoriously talented builders, and follow scripture to the letter. They do not believe in war, capitalism, and are constantly engaged in charitable work.
Thank you dave.
If you could explain how they have large families, they are polygamous right? Is it doctrinal that they must have many wives and many children or what?
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Basically Catholics believe that during the Last Supper when Christ told the disciples to drink the wine he passed around and eat the lamb wrapped in bread, and then told them to do this in memory of him (his blood being spilled for us, his body being consumed for us) that he literally meant "this is my body", and "this is my blood."
Protestants believe this is a symbolic act.
Catholics whenever they do Eucharist vehemently believe that it is literally Christs blood and body they are eating - thus when the host is raised it is transforming into the body of Christ. It's their ritual miracle - they even have this ridiculous little bell that goes off for those of us not paying attention or not aware a magic trick is going on.
I am southern presbyterian.
hang on a sec. eucharist is the same as raising of the host?
what is the host- the bread and wine?
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
lol a lot of lefties like to bring Sun Myung Moon into the fray. He's sort of like the crazy rich uncle that everybody wants to get close to for handouts but never wants to be associated with for fear of being associated with the whackjob.
He's not very important in american fundamentalism really. The leaders are pretty much the Christian Coalition and that's it.
I'm not sure which split you are talking about? Within American Christendom or within American politics?
Eucharist is the ritual of eating the host (a small wafer only catholics use) and the wine. The part where it is raised is when the priest turns his back on the congregation holds the host up chants in latin something i've never quite understood, and at that moment a bell goes off signifying the host has literally become the physical flesh of God.
so eucharist is not the same as raising of the host?
i think priest says hoc est corpus, this is the body?
well thats what i heard. i would be interested in viewing a catholic mass to see what all the fuss was about. I am fascinated with medieval europe, its one of my forbidden passions!
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
It's doctrinal that they have many children - they understand the passage of "go forth and multiply" to be a command from God directed at them personally "it is a humans duty to multiply" rather than a description of a historic event in which God commanded the first people to do something - let alone anything deeper than that.
Thus they generally will have anywhere from 6-10 children per wife.
Many will marry more than one woman in pursuit of this command, one guy I was reading about had something like 80 wives. They also inherit wives from male relatives who die.
Thus they have these colosal families that suck up state resources and pour money back into the Mormon Church-Machine.
They are extremely wealthy and have been trying to expand internationally for decades.
Is that all? Im gonna get atleast 15 outta each of my wives, lol. Joke!
This inheriting of women happens in US of A? And they worried about us and our marriage traditions?
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
no raising the host is one of the central parts of the catholic eucharist - the eucharist itself is the larger sacriment that Catholocism shares with all branches of Christianity in which we are reminded of Christ's sacrifice.
I'm not sure what he says but hoc is "that" hic is "this" - I think it's actually something from scripture in latin.
lol go to the vatican or any number of monastaries in France if you are interested in the medieval mass. After the Vatican II they are nothing like what they were. They used to be entirely in Latin with the priest facing the opposite direction, there were also various rituals and prayers that have evaporated.
I too am very interested in medieval europe, however I have recently become a little more interested in the activities of the byzantine church in Eastern Europe - probably because they were and are so very secretive due to years of outside oppression from the Catholics, Turks, and Commies.
Damn fascinating - always will be interested in the Crusades though.
lol 15 per wife - hey you could start a farm!
Yes this happens in the US of A. It's entirely illegal and is a major irritation to Mormons who are constantly whining about how oppressed they are and how they should have fought the US at the battle of Salt Lake City and toughed it out.
They woulda been anihilated.
They simply disregard the law - there are no longer any anti-adultery laws in the US, thus they have religious ceremonies and never get legal recognition.
They get around the tax problem by leaving it all to the Mormon Church (tax free religious org) who redistributes a portion to all the wives equally or based on need, and keeps a chunk for itself.
Many muslims do this too.
However we all know they do it and they are sort of ostracized socially as backwards or barbarian.
Jerry doesn't seem to mind.
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/sun-myung-moon/falwell_m...
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Moonies/jerry_falwell_a...
I meant in terms of funding and control. Obviously most grass roots evangelicals wouldn't accept him because he considers himself to be better than Jesus. Example The Washington Times is owned by him but hosts several christian right columnists who I doubt agree with any of his theology. His importance is in where his money goes not in the strange activities of his Unification church.[/quote]
Within American Culture
Yeh, I think history in general is soo fascinating.
It might surprise some here but I am a major sympathiser with Queen Mary I, Bloody Mary. Yes thats right I am a sympathiser of a kafira, queen, woman ruling over men!! Shock horror!
Lol. I dont know where i get this freaky interest from, it doesnt sit well with my image at all but thats life. I think I identify with bloody mary cos she suffered so much abuse and ridicule due to her sticking to her faith. In UK, henry viii is made out to be a great king but he was a villain and a tyrant and more he was a most abusive father. Imagine falling inlove with a protestant whore and for her love divorcing a devout and obedient wife and declaring your own daughter a royal bastard!
History is a pack of lies. Elizabeth I is taught in the schools as being a great queen who devoted herself to her country and so didnt marry, truth is she was a lewd and immoral woman who found more excitement in stealing other womens hsubands than finding one herself. She did bad things with her own stepmothers husband and even with her brother in lawn and with thomas dudley.
Poor Mary and damn that elizabeth.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Horrible Histories Med?
bloody great them books
now availabe on CD in your kellogs cereals
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
OI! u calling me and my future offspring animals! Im gonna hunt u down boy and beat u if u r.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
those ones are just dumbed down versions for the thickos, no offence bro!
I prefer reading more weighty books that actually tell stuff in detail rather than just read some interesting facts.
But to anyone I would urge you to read Bloody Mary by Carolly Erickson. It is a TOP book and even a person with a stone for a heart would be moved by how much Mary suffered in her life, if she was a muslim I swear she would be a saint but she aint muslim so she aint a saint.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
The history taught in schools and to laymen is genearally a very simplified version of events.
The study of History is about dissecting the official version of events.
i like horrible histories....theyre funny and you still learn a lil something
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Absolutely true. But the way we were taught in school about how great elizabeth was makes me sick, she was a cunning person who tried on NUMEROUS occasions to usurp the throne from her sister Mary, yet every time Mary showed her mercy and hoped she would become of the true faith. It just makes me sick, I could go into a rant but cant be bothered.
instead long deep breaths, remain calm.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Like I said, it's a love hate avoid relationship - when the billionaire wants to hand out checks, he's got himself friends. But try to find a mainline news article that shows Jerry hanging out with Moon - he's more sensitive to public opinion than that.
That's a good point I hadn't really thought about - his money is like his tentacles, they reach pretty well into everybody's pocket in the Coalition too. Robert Kennedy Jr. had a chapter about his monetary power within the Christian Right in Crimes Against Nature. Frankly I thought he went overboard - he has a tendancy to speculate conspiracy, but there is meat behind the argument.
Within American Culture it's a different story. Nobody want's a return to puritanic values the country was founded on, nor is anyone advocating that. The Christian Right is motivated largely by money and nationalism, and they are the mobilizing force for wedge issues of the Republican Party. All this stuff about "gay rights" is one such instance, the purpose of the marriage amendment was to detract voters from the death of the Assault Weapons Ban. They flared up at almost the same time - gay marriage just slightly before, and while it was a big issue amongst the Christian Right, it didn't become a national issue until the amendment.
I'm just not seeing an effort or desire to go back to Puritanic Principles. Perhaps a more conservative social framework on the part of those disillusioned enough to fall for the wedge issue stunt - but not a return Puritanism.
yeh they are funny and you do learn stuff, but to learn in more detail and properly should go into bigger books. I used to read those books aswell but now when i get a free week I read some heavy books on history.
I read a wicked one on Catherine de Medici. She was an amazing woman. She orchestrated the St Bartholomews day massacre of all the leading huguenots in france,genius. She purified in her view the french from a new heresy that was plaguing europe.
I think its how individuals in history manage to change the course of an entire nation that so interests me in history and the way they implement their ambitions is amazing. Take Catherin de Medici. The only way she could bring the huguenot lords into paris and into confidence was by making pecae with them. She married her daughter Margot to HENRI de Navarre who was a huguenot thus making it looks like a french reconciliation. It was only later when the huguenot lords had gathered in paris that the catholics went on a rampage killing and looting huguenot properties. I am impressed.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Not in a thousand years will the shame be washed from your unclean soul!
lol, i'm not - she was royalty and threatening catholocism on Britain. Could you imagine how irritating Britain would be if everywhere you looked there was a statue of Mary?
I have some... reservations... on the Catholic Church - I basically think it's an excuse to push Italian culture on the rest of the world.
Yea Henry VIII was a miserable waste of life - the only good thing he did was break off from Catholocism and create - minicatholocism. The protestant little brother nobody likes to talk about.
lol incidentally the title "defender of the faith" was given to Henry by the Pope back when he wrote a vitriolic rant against Martin Luther. He held on to the title after he conjured up the church of england because he liked the way it sounded.
lol never heard about her sexual indescretions but I know she was essentially a man - was into bear baiting and whatnot. She was a good Queen though, she had a fantastic grasp of just how far she could push her royal mandate without losing parliamentary support.
Ironic it would be the Parliament that got out of control in England isn't it?
lol probably.
And whats even more strange is that I think Henri de Navarre survived the massacre and eventually became King after three of his brothers in law became king and then died. Fate is an amazing thing indeed
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
lol taking a stab at the mormons. A lot of people pointed out that from an economic standpoint it was advantageous to have more children back then because you didn't have to hire farmhands.
Children = Free Labor
lol yes indeed, no surprise he signed the edict of nantes
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