Actually the overwhelming majority of the troops are behaving themselves quite well (do recall it was the troops who also made the abuse public, in the interest of justice). Just like any body there are criminals among them that take the fore-front and poison the whole group.

Of course your vitriolics probably were less driven by a serious thought than they were to get a rise out of me.

I am concerned on one point I might consider a slip of seriousness. Your imam showing you pictures of the Iraqi abuse scandal. I am curious - what was his reasoning in showing you this?

Regarding the sentances, I cannot say for certain what the trials looked like for the individuals responsible for what happened but a combination of forces - both just and unjust most likely (and in my opinion) resulted in terribly light sentances.

They include the burdeon of proof which often results in the exclusion of strong (but unjustly gathered) evidence - which is just, the fact that these are military courts in a war time setting - which I would say is unjust however pretty much standard procedure for all civilizations for all time, and the military's need to make this whole mess disappear - which of course is unjust.

That said there was no shortage of harsh penalties
Charles Graner recieved ten years in prison (the same by law in civilian courts for assault indecency adultery obstruction of justice and conspiracy to maltreat)

Ivan Frederick - whos crimes were particularly perverted recieved 8 years in prison

I don't know what has happened to Lynndie England I think she recieved ten years.

"Judda" wrote:

"Dave" wrote:

I am concerned on one point I might consider a slip of seriousness. Your imam showing you pictures of the Iraqi abuse scandal. I am curious - what was his reasoning in showing you this?

nobody wanted to go on anit-war march... he showed pictures then lots of ppl went...

Anti-war march after the war? That sounds a little strange.

I suppose along with the pictures he said something too... happen to remember what he said?

Again - just curious

What did he say to that effect?

"Judda" wrote:

we were just dead shocked and disgusted thats all...

us muslims are 'not used to it'

u know what i mean (i dont intend to sound steriotypical) or racist

it was local paper and he just mentioned it..

Well it sounds like he did a little more than just mentioned it if he brought a newspaper and pictures along with him that day. I usually don't plan out casual discussions.

You said muslims are "not used to it" is that something you discussed that day? Did he say that or is that you?

"Judda" wrote:

same as everybody else really...

And at that point did he discuss the possibility of future american invasions such as Pakistan or Iran? Perhaps he had a particular opinion on that subject he might have shared with you?

I understand this was casual and all - I am just curious, so if you can't remember that's cool.

"Judda" wrote:

no i sed that

he owns a newsie... he got papers b4 every1 else and brought it and and showed it thats all

Wow, I hear those newstands make a lot of money on the side - nice to have a nest egg ya know?

I suppose if he gets the papers that early everymorning he has a little time to "brew" over the news so to speak...

I suppose he had been thinking about those pictures for a while then.

Hey were the pictures he brought from the actual papers themselves or did he get them somewhere else?

"Judda" wrote:

no

nobody said much it was just a shock really....

The pictures were a shock or the possibility of a future invasion was shocking?

I am a little confused here..

"Judda" wrote:

I brought up discussion about invading Pakistan...

Oh so you did discuss it then - what made you think about that - is your Imam from Pakistan or something?

I remember when the whole thing broke out we were all pretty shocked - no wonder it was such a poignent memory.

Not surprising your imam would play with the idea of future invasions... probably seemed like the US was against Islam or something.

Does your imam normally discuss current events with the muslim youth in your area?

Judda - would you say we are having a "normal" conversation?

"Judda" wrote:

no it is a mosque dave... but that was different... ur an american i wouldn't expect u 2 understand... you guys are famous for filming that sort of filth and selling it.... ( I like 'one night in paris' whats your fave m8?)

when we wanted to raise money for afganistan we showed the papers and showed what was happening and all the bombing made ppl want to give more...

there was an anti war march in london at midday ages ago when the war was still going asking blair to withdraw troops so marches were still going on mate...

So you were discussion this in the mosque itself, I understand perfectly, I often discuss current events with my pastor at home. I've known him forever and it's nice to have a religious voice on political issues.

I am a little curious why he would need to raise money for an anti-war protest in afghanistan after the Abu Ghraib scandal, Afghanistan was a long time ago - but like you say the marches can keep going on I suppose.

Sounds like he was trying to start one himself! Civic duty is completely admirable.

I did notice you said "papers" and mentioned bombings as well... Sounds like a lot of information for just a casual conversation.

What other papers did he bring?

"Judda" wrote:

I hope your not suggesting what I think you are suggesting?

In case your too stupid to realise Muslims are AGAINST terrorism… you’ve been watching too much T.V. mate….

The FBI are more then welcome at our Mosque…

We got nothing to hide and we condemn terrorism…

Whoa - calm down, I am just curious how muslim youth spend their time at a mosque, I am just asking a couple questions... can't suggest anything with a question can ya?

If you don't want to help me out here - no problem I totally understand just say so.

I don't think we need the FBI in Mosques.

lol well unless of course something illegal was going on - but nothing illegal is going on in American or British mosques.

"Judda" wrote:

"Dave" wrote:

Judda - would you say we are having a "normal" conversation?

what do you mean "normal"?

lol okay okay looks like I scared you off.

Just wanted to see if all that stuff I learned actually works - It's amazing if you persistently ask questions and don a controlled calm tone you can really knock people off balance.

lol "normal" conversation doesn't mean one person keeps asking questions and the other doesn't - that's an interrogation.

The best part is I didn't have to have you in a little easily controlled room or anything to freak you out!

"Judda" wrote:

lol i was still typing when you posted that

i know ur brainwashed but i'm not that scared of you...

i got nuffin to hide...

lol the funny thing is that is pretty much how all my conversations went with people at work over the summer - THEY COULDN'T CARRY ON NORMAL CONVERSATIONS.

It was like a combination of interrogation and that guy from Office Space

"Yea... Why don't you just go ahead and..."

I can't imagine what it is like to live with people like that.

you know yeah... in a fair fight yeah...

who would win?

Batman, or joker?

erm... back to topic.

what topic?

where is the discussion?

deleted

"Judda" wrote:

yo dave answer mi Q.

"Judda" wrote:

If I bombed your country, killed your friends, destroyed your house and raped your mum how would you feel if I got sent down for one year?

I would have ruined your mum’s life and only got one year for it! Tell me how you would feel?

y did they only get 1 year?

Judda, Muslims killed my friends, destroyed my friends houses in Manhattan and - although they did not rape my mom, beheaded several of my countrymen.

And let's be quite clear about this, those men were - until the very moment they crashed into the WTC or picked up the knives, Muslims - Doing what they believed was in the service of God.

And now I see Muslims defending their actions and in the case of the beheaders joining their ranks.

My initial response is of course anger; however over the years I have learned to temper my anger in response to how I see it effects negative changes, and furthermore I have understood the world to be a bigger place than just the bad guys and the good guys.

The terrorists, who were Muslims, I have actually learned to forgive - because they were deceived, and led astray. And I understand it is the nature of people - when they are very upset about situations that seem beyond their control - to surrender their freedom, their souls - everything - to someone who promises to alleviate that situation.

So just as we Americans rush to our politicians who promise to end what we cannot control and what scares us - young Muslim men of varying backgrounds rush to demagogues who promise them what they can never deliver.

An interesting thing has happened to me due to this paradigm shift - I no longer think in absolutes "we are the victims - they are the aggressors" unfortunately we are all victims.

I'll promise you this much, if you think all day about how "they" are doing x,y, and z to you - you will start to think about how much you would like to do x,y, and z to them. Not really so much because you want to get back - but because you want them to stop, and [i]you want them to understand[/i] - for the perverse reason that you believe they will sympathize with you and you will all be stuck in the same puddle together.

That just leads to a cycle of retaliation - a self justifying chain reaction.

Are Muslims not justified in being angry at the United States for this?

[img]http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery/albums/Abu_Ghraib_prison_abuses...

Definitely

Are Americans not justified in being angry for this?

[img]http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/wtc-person-fallingsmall.jpg[/img]

Definitely

But so far that's all we've done, watched the videos again and again, analyzed and reanalyzed the pictures, and what has become of all our discussion, analysis and rhetoric?

I'm just seeing more of the same.

And why shouldn't young Americans join Bush in his call to war? Why shouldn't Muslims join bin Laden in his call to Jihad? At least [i]they[/i] are calling for some sort of action - and are not caught up in some deadlock discussion like what I hear from the average middle of the road American or Muslim - "Oh there are really only a few of them responsible for that so it's not our fault, however the other people really started all this mess anyway"

I mean what's that really saying? "There is no problem here - but if there is it's the other guy's fault"

It's both denial and justification for the deceivers all in one.

Frankly - your question is nothing more than rhetoric, either designed to get some sort of vitriolic response out of me - or to make a point to the other members of this forum about the USA. You aren't actually interested in a real response, just reaction - from me or the others on the forum.

Because you like to stir up trouble and giggle while everybody gives you the reaction you are looking for.

But I have given you the best response to your question I can think of, the situation as I have worked it out so far - by no means complete and by all means hypocritical from a person who so often finds himself arguing "it's unfortunate that some criminal actions have occurred but it's not our fault (secret code for it's not our problem)" and who so often tows the administrations line hoping that the next few bombs over Anywhereistan might be the last that have to be dropped to end this all this insanity.

But I suppose it is better to know the truth and be a hypocrite (hopefully not for too long) than to not know it and blindly follow men who promise everything and deliver nothing - like the terrorists, or what's worse, to know the truth but actively reject it because it calls for some level of sacrifice you are not willing to accept - such as bin Laden or the President.

"Judda" wrote:

i is sorry to hear about ur friends m8....

That's life

"Judda" wrote:

i is only asking y they only got sent down for 1 year, thats all....

The administration wanted the embarassment to go away

"Judda" wrote:

i h8 bin ladin as much as i h8 bush... they are both as bad as each other but in different ways...

Why hate them? Bin Laden was deceived too - I don't think he was born to do what he does. Somebody along the line taught all this to him. Bush honestly believes that by staying on the "offensive" and tearing down oppressive regimes he is going to stop terrorism before it starts, and he doesn't care or won't accept the reality of the fact he is steamrolling hundreds of thousands - even millions who live in these countries to do it.

They just don't get it.

If anyone to blame it's our fault. We watch the President or bin Laden continue down this course and we - supposedly the people they do this for, and should therefore be closest to them do not stop them from further sinning.

We worry more about our reputations and how this reflects on us - we try to distance ourselves from them, let them wallow in sin and destruction while we try to selfishly lift ourselves out of the shadow cast upon us by their acts. We cast them out of our ranks and pretend we don't know them and never knew them. I make this more pointed - Lyndie England is a Christian, an American, and a Soldier in the service of the republic.

And every bullet she fires in my name is something I am responsible for.

But when she drags men around on leashes and attaches electrodes to them - suddenly I am out of the picture. She is a "mere criminal" irresponsible - beholden to no one and "should be punished" but above all not connected to me in any way.

Rather than embracing and correcting her - trying to do everything with in my power to save her from her own sin, and thus all of us from her sin - I push her away and let "the system" take care of it while I continue on my morally upright way fully confident I am not to blame.

And I assure you that is not what communities are about. Communities of faith especially.

So really - it's my fault