nothing to do with the Islamic faith?

is he off his head?

you'd expect a non muslim to say that not a muslim from a muslim country.

He is trying to please the West.

I know God won't be pleased with that.

What else did you expect from American backed regimes and clerics.

When a scholar's pay-cheque comes from the White House, then his views cannot be Islamic.

Omrow wrote:

What else did you expect from American backed regimes.

When a scholar's pay-cheque comes from the White House, then his views cannot be Islamic.

I don't think al-Azhar is paid for using American money.

Am I the only one who's happy he said this? Even though it doesn't affect me directly, it certainly will be good information to say 'the head of the 2nd oldest university in the world said that it is a cultural tradition and not a religious practice' when my sister complains about women's lib. and Islam.

You wrote:

I don't really care about making it easier to argue things.

That's probably because most of the people you care about are Muslims.

Asalamu alaykum,

Anyone who says that the Niqaab is not related to Islam and is just tradition is evidently not knowledgeable. Two of the four Imams gave the ruling that the Niqaab is fard!

all i can say is good on him, he should ban the niqab, its only culture and pushed onto women because there husbands are insecure, or the women 'choose' to do it to keep there husband happy. end of story, all the typical guys that do this and know this will comment in outrage.

''UniteTheUmmah
Asalamu alaykum,

Anyone who says that the Niqaab is not related to Islam and is just tradition is evidently not knowledgeable. Two of the four Imams gave the ruling that the Niqaab is fard!''
'

why not all four????

K_A_M_R_A_N wrote:

all i can say is good on him, he should ban the niqab, its only culture and pushed onto women because there husbands are insecure, or the women 'choose' to do it to keep there husband happy. end of story, all the typical guys that do this and know this will comment in outrage.

How can u say that? maybe some people do that but some women actually do want to wear it! :roll:

K_A_M_R_A_N wrote:

all i can say is good on him, he should ban the niqab, its only culture and pushed onto women because there husbands are insecure, or the women 'choose' to do it to keep there husband happy. end of story, all the typical guys that do this and know this will comment in outrage.

ok i don't agree at all with that.

i don't know if it's a religious requirement or not. I know there are lots of sisters who wear it in order to be obedient to Allah (swt) and for no other reason, and I respect that and would defend their decision if it was ever threatened to be banned in the uk. I highly doubt that could happen unless a very different kind of government than the two on offer came to power.

But I am also aware that there is, parallel to this, women who are either forced to wear it against their own wishes, or wear it out of culture/custom, when it has little or no relation to observing Islamic rules. The stories that a woman I know who's lived in Saudi told me about the flirting that takes place in cafes with bluetooth and involves women taking down their face covering to show guys what they'd be in for if they followed her to her house/dark alley, which happened right under the noses of the 'religious police' (who were doing their job out of need for money just as much as a wish for 'correct Islamic principals to be upheld') prove that.

I have also heard stories of women who have publicly taken off their veils to show the results that domestic violence has had on their faces which their husbands had hidden under the niqab.

Since niqab is used in these circumstances as well, I would just as happily defend my sisters' right to NOT wear the niqab if it was ever threatened here.

But is this the right attitude to take? JUST worrying about issues like this when they happen in MY/OUR Country? Shouldn't I be just as willing to go out my way for sisters in France or Saudi Arabia who don't have the choice either way? Then again, I do have a modicum of power/sway in the UK as a 'citizen' or a 'subject' or whatever. I don't hold these positions in most of Europe or the Ummah or whoever the Saudi princes claim to have authority over.

K_A_M_R_A_N wrote:

all i can say is good on him, he should ban the niqab, its only culture and pushed onto women because there husbands are insecure, or the women 'choose' to do it to keep there husband happy. end of story, all the typical guys that do this and know this will comment in outrage.

Are you real?

Not necessarily, most women in the West who wear Hijab because THEY want to, because it gives them respect. If, and only IF, I was female I would just stick to the Hijab, but I would accept that if a woman WANTS to wear niqab then in the 21st Century we have no right to stop her.

Ya'qub wrote:

But is this the right attitude to take? JUST worrying about issues like this when they happen in MY/OUR Country? Shouldn't I be just as willing to go out my way for sisters in France or Saudi Arabia who don't have the choice either way? Then again, I do have a modicum of power/sway in the UK as a 'citizen' or a 'subject' or whatever. I don't hold these positions in most of Europe or the Ummah or whoever the Saudi princes claim to have authority over.

nice post btw

Omrow wrote:

He is trying to please the West.

I know God won't be pleased with that.

What else did you expect from American backed regimes and clerics.

When a scholar's pay-cheque comes from the White House, then his views cannot be Islamic.

How do you know what God will or will not be pleased with? It's arrogance like that that makes you so unpopular. Learn some humility - I am pretty sure (but do not know) that God would be pleased with that.

Egypt is a more secular than I thought it would be. Most girls wear Hijaab, but they mostly skinny jeans and tight top/hijabi. Some are scantily clad.

Intrestingly enough, my husband has had more abuse hurled at him for having a beard than he ever got on the tubes in London!

MuslimSister wrote:

Intrestingly enough, my husband has had more abuse hurled at him for having a beard than he ever got on the tubes in London!

:shock:

Yeah, he often gets called Bin Laden. It frustrates me so much, cos these people are Muslims, and instead of looking up to someone who is following the sunnah, they mock it...most egyptian guys are clean shaven.

My husband doesnt bat an eyelid, he's more Sufi than I am when it comes to turning the other cheek.

MuslimSister wrote:

Egypt is a more secular than I thought it would be. Most girls wear Hijaab, but they mostly skinny jeans and tight top/hijabi. Some are scantily clad.

Intrestingly enough, my husband has had more abuse hurled at him for having a beard than he ever got on the tubes in London!

I think it differs around the country, some areas are REALLY 'traditional' and other REALLY 'westernised'.

But I think the trend is more outward symbols of Islam - i.e. more beards and hijabs. Apparantly 20 years ago hardly any women in Egyptian cities wore hijab, and now the majority do.

I have to say i was a bit shocked to read what Shaykh Tantawi has said on the issue of the niqab. Even thought i follow the opinion that niqab is not compulsory and dont think Muslim women should wear it in the West, I still feel this fatwa is a bit... whats the word.... dodgy!

If u study hanafi fiqh, Imam Abu hanifa and especially his students and other major hanagfi scholars agree that niqab is wajib; then there is a debate whether the hijab includes the covering of the face or just the whole body except face, hands and in some cases feet.

There are ahadith which can be argued in favour of niqab.

So the nutshell is : to say it has nothing to do with Islam or just culture surely is wrong.

My argument and argument of ulema who dont favour the niqab is that if a woman chooses to wear it she can but its not compulsory to do so; and in the West scholars like Hamza Yusuf and Shaykh Nuh Keller and others dont encourage it.But no scholar i have heard of has ever said it should be banned, women shouldnt be allowed to wear it, its just culture etc.....

This then leads to why this fatwa was given/ whats the motive? Cos u expect the likes of jack straw, french president , now Italian right wing MP's, also the BNP etc to ask for the niqab to be banned- not a big Islamic Scholar from Al Azhar!

So i would persoanlly not give much authority to this fatwa. It would be interetsing how other big scholars across the world react to this fatwa.

Very good answer on the niqab by Shaykh Yusuf al Qaradawi:

There is an opinion that niqab is a bid`ah that is alien to Muslims and that it has nothing at all to do with the religion of Islam, having penetrated Muslim society during the ages of extreme deterioration. This is neither a scientific nor an objective view. It is an oversimplification of the issue, which deviates people from scrutinizing the subject as it really is.

Any person learned about the sources of knowledge and scholarly views cannot argue about the issue being controversial among scholars. I mean here the issue of whether it is permissible to uncover the woman's face or whether it is obligatory to veil it and the hands too.

Muslim scholars of the predecessors — including jurists, exegetes of the Qur'an, and scholars of Hadith — have differed over this issue. Their difference was due to their various understandings and attitudes towards the religious texts about the subject at hand, especially that there is no definitive clear-cut text about it. Had there been any, there would have been no scholarly difference regarding it.

Among the texts they have differed over is this Qur'anic verse: [ And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their zeenah (charms, or beauty and ornaments) except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof] (An-Nur 24:31).

Ibn Mas`ud was reported to have said while commenting on this verse, "[Except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof] here refers to the clothes and cloaks (women are wearing)." This means the outer garments that cannot be hidden.

Ibn `Abbas was also reported to have said while explaining this verse, "[Except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof] refers to kohl and rings." A similar view was also reported to have been adopted by Anas ibn Malik and `A'ishah. Sometimes Ibn `Abbas would add to "kohl and rings" "henna with which hands are tinted, bracelets, earrings, and necklaces." He might even refer tozeenah as the places where ornaments are worn, by saying "the face and palms of the hands." This was also reported to have been the opinion of Sa`id ibn Jubair, `Atta', and others.

Some scholars also included part of the woman's arm in what is referred to by [what (must ordinarily) appear thereof].

Furthermore, Ibn `Attiyah explained these words by saying that they refer to the parts of the woman's body that are unintentionally unveiled by means of wind and the like. (See the exegesis of the verse as explained by Ibn Jarir, Ibn Kathir, and Al-Qurtubi; and see also its explanation in Ad-Dur Al-Manthur, vol. 5, pp. 41-42.)

Scholars have also differed concerning the explanation of the words [draw their cloaks close round them] in the verse [O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful] (Al-Ahzab 33:59).

Ibn `Abbas was reported to have said, commenting on this verse, an opinion contrary to what he was reported to have expressed as comment on the first verse referred to above! It was also reported that `Ubaidah As-Salmani, one of the Tabi`un (Successors) explained [drawing their cloaks] practically by covering his head and face and unveiling his left eye only. A similar example was also reported to have been set by Muhammad ibn Ka`b Al-Qardhi.

But `Ikrimah, servant of Ibn `Abbas, differed with them, saying "The woman is to cover the unveiled part of her chest by a cloak that she draws round her." Sa`id ibn Jubair said, "It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to be seen by a man lawful for her to marry unless she puts on a face veil in addition to the hijab which extends from her head to her chest." (See Ad-Dur Al-Manthur, vol. 5, pp. 221-222 as well as the sources referred to above for an explanation of the relevant verse.)

As for my point of view on the issue, I see that the woman's face and hands are not part of her `awrah (parts of her body that should not be exposed in public), and hence, it is not obligatory for her to veil them. I also believe that the evidence supporting this opinion is stronger than that supporting the opposite opinion. Many contemporary scholars agree with me in this view, like Nasir Ad-Din Al-Albani (as shown in his book Hijab Al-Mar'ah Al-Muslimah fi Al-Kitab wa As-Sunnah), the majority of the Al-Azhar scholars in Egypt, the scholars of Az-Zaytunah University in Tunisia, the scholars of Al-Qarawiyeen University in Morocco, and many Pakistani, Indian, and Turkish scholars as well as others.

However, it is not right to claim that there is unanimity among contemporary scholars that it is permissible to uncover the Muslim woman's face and hands, as there are many scholars in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, a number of the other Gulf countries, Pakistan, and India, who believe that veiling the woman's face and hands is obligatory. Among them are the late eminent Saudi scholar Sheikh `Abdul-`Aziz ibn Baz, and the late well-known Pakistani scholar Abu Al-A`la Al-Mawdudi (as shown in his book Al-Hijab).

Living contemporary scholars who also believe that veiling the face is obligatory include the famous Syrian writer Dr. Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan Al-Buti, who published a letter in this respect, "To Every Young Woman Who Believes in Almighty Allah." There are also other letters and fatwas published from time to time that condemn women who uncover their faces and adjure them in the name of religion and faith to wear niqab and not to listen to the modern scholars who want to subjugate religion to modernism. The advocates of this view may even refer to me as one of those modern scholars!

But never do I hold that this opinion — that covering the woman's whole body except the face and hands is the obligatory attire for the Muslim woman — be imposed on the woman who believes in the other opinion, according to which veiling the face is obligatory and uncovering it is forbidden. I will only blame the advocates of the latter opinion if they attempt to impose their attitude on the proponents of the former one and accuse them of being sinful and wrongdoers for adopting it. It is agreed upon that, with regard to the controversial issues on which scholars have given different personal legal opinions, there is no blame to be placed on a person for following a certain personal legal opinion to the exclusion of others.

The advocates of my opinion and I, in turn, do not have any right to censure the supporters of the counteropinion for believing thatit is obligatory for women to wear niqab. For, first, this counteropinion is a scholarly one within the framework of Islamic jurisprudence, and, second, had we criticized them, we would have committed a mistake which we are originally against, that is, denying others the right to differ with us.

Moreover, there are some women who see that, to be on the safe side, wearing a face veil is not obligatory, but, rather, desirable, and draws its wearer closer to piety and fear of Allah. There is nothing wrong in so believing, and no one has the right to blame the proponents of this opinion for following it, so long as this would not be of any harm to others or contradict either public or personal interests.

No Muslim scholar, whether among the predecessors or contemporary scholars, has ever been reported to have regarded wearing niqab as forbidden except in the case of ihram for women. The scholarly difference regarding the issue of niqab is only over whether it is obligatory, recommendable, or merely permissible. Thus it is untenable that a Muslim jurist would regard niqab as prohibited or even merely undesirable in Islam. Hence, I was really shocked to learn that the writer Baha' published an opinion attributed to some Al-Azhar scholars to the effect that they believe that veiling the woman's face falls under prohibiting what Almighty Allah has originally permitted. In fact, the advocates of this view cannot be said to be of firm knowledge about the Qur'an or the Sunnah or fiqh.

Suppose even that wearing niqab is merely permissible — as I do myself believe — not obligatory or desirable. Even in such a case, any Muslim woman may wear it, and no one has the right to prevent her from doing so. It is her personal right, and in practicing it she neither falls short of her duties nor causes others harm. Even man-made laws and the conventions of human rights advocate the personal rights of people.

It is ironic that freedom of dress is given to those who choose to uncover parts of their bodies without encountering any objection, while severe censure is launched against the wearers of niqab who consider it a teaching of their religion that they cannot neglect!

Assalaamu 'alaykum,

Subhan'Allah this is reality...female students are now being banned from entering Azhar Uni because they wear niqaab..shocking..

">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOX2w0n5n4U]

I cant believe this! They cant ban veils! It should be a women's choice! Bloody hell and for it to come from a muslim country too.