doesn't shock me

Amazing.

Is it the piece of cloth that allows a woman to be accepted and integrated in society? Or the piece of cloth AND the values that comes with it?

In Islam a woman wears the Burka/Khimar/Jilbaab, she is respected as a mother, as a wife, as somebody's daughter and she is given those rights which protect her. When she steps out onto the street she will receive the respect that is due to her. In her old age even she is still at the centre of her family.

Lets look at her non-muslim counterpart, the women who you are asking Muslim women to be more like. She instead has adopted a different piece of cloth, the mini skirt or the trousers or dress which you claim does not allow her to be subjugated, and 'liberates' her from the prison of the burqa.
She steps out of her house and may be harrassed by men on the street, she may be beaten black and blue by her husband (domestic violence is ever increasing), she is not paid equally in the workplace, may be suffering discrimination in the workplace, the children she bears treat her with contempt from the moment they can speak, and when she is old, she is cast into the shadows and miserably awaits her death. Feminism gone horribly wrong indeed.

SubhanALLAH this is the beauty of 'modern civilization' and the way it treats its women.

Another example of an ignorant individual with too much power jumping on the band wagon against Muslim women in an attempt to redefine Islam. (As his basis for the argument was that this dress code for women is not from Islam, who on earth does he think he is? A scholar of Islam?)....

The first such occasion since Bonaparte, and what does he discuss? The burqa and the economy...its hilarious! For the starving french living in todays crisis, the biggest threat is....?
The Burqa of course!!!!

afzana_javed wrote:

Lets look at her non-muslim counterpart, the women who you are asking Muslim women to be more like. She instead has adopted a different piece of cloth, the mini skirt or the trousers or dress which you claim does not allow her to be subjugated, and 'liberates' her from the prison of the burqa.
She steps out of her house and may be harrassed by men on the street, she may be beaten black and blue by her husband (domestic violence is ever increasing), she is not paid equally in the workplace, may be suffering discrimination in the workplace, the children she bears treat her with contempt from the moment they can speak, and when she is old, she is cast into the shadows and miserably awaits her death. Feminism gone horribly wrong indeed.

Can you not be rude about my family please.

You wrote:

To be honest, judging by either pieces of cloth alone are unfair.

And other harsh realities of the world are not just for one type or other - domestic abuse happens in Muslim societies too. It may be worse there as the way out is less clear due to family loyalties etc, especially if the marriage was arranged.

Yes thats what I meant when I said is it the clothes alone or the values that come with those clothes? Islam doesn't just say wear these, it has with it a system which upholds those values ensuring the protection of women. It works hand in hand so to speak. And vice versa for the non-Islamic societies.

Domestic abuse/Abuse of women, does happen in Muslim societies but is that because they're being governed by and upholding Islam or because they have left Islam and these societies are living under a similar model of our western societies?

Ya'qub wrote:

afzana_javed wrote:

Lets look at her non-muslim counterpart, the women who you are asking Muslim women to be more like. She instead has adopted a different piece of cloth, the mini skirt or the trousers or dress which you claim does not allow her to be subjugated, and 'liberates' her from the prison of the burqa.
She steps out of her house and may be harrassed by men on the street, she may be beaten black and blue by her husband (domestic violence is ever increasing), she is not paid equally in the workplace, may be suffering discrimination in the workplace, the children she bears treat her with contempt from the moment they can speak, and when she is old, she is cast into the shadows and miserably awaits her death. Feminism gone horribly wrong indeed.

Can you not be rude about my family please.

How was I to know? :roll:

afzana_javed wrote:

Ya'qub wrote:

afzana_javed wrote:

Lets look at her non-muslim counterpart, the women who you are asking Muslim women to be more like. She instead has adopted a different piece of cloth, the mini skirt or the trousers or dress which you claim does not allow her to be subjugated, and 'liberates' her from the prison of the burqa.
She steps out of her house and may be harrassed by men on the street, she may be beaten black and blue by her husband (domestic violence is ever increasing), she is not paid equally in the workplace, may be suffering discrimination in the workplace, the children she bears treat her with contempt from the moment they can speak, and when she is old, she is cast into the shadows and miserably awaits her death. Feminism gone horribly wrong indeed.

Can you not be rude about my family please.

How was I to know? :roll:

That's not really the point.

You shouldn't be rude, period.

Sarkozy is a prick because he is rude about other people who he knows nothing about.

If you are rude about people you know nothing about, what does that make you?

Personally i dont think women should wear niqab in this country or non Muslim countries simply because it does the opposite of what the niqab aims to do. Niqab is supposed to provide you security and modesty, not be an object of desire and be molested etc.... but by wearing the niqab in the West you:
1. attracts attention where otherwise no one will even notice you. so on the bus you stand out like a sore thumb, in other words it doesnt provide 'parda' but attracts attention
2. it also makes you an obvious target for abuse/attacks from islamaphobes and others- so it doesnt really provide 'security' in non muslim lands
3. lets be honest, wearing a niqab and working- especially when facing the public- is very very difficult and an obvious obstacle...so i can see why people would oppose to it.

i still dont think that anyone should be told what to wear especially when many ppl dont wear much and it is seen as acceptable.

Personally I found the niqab very difficult to wear initially. Even today some days I have this inner battle with myself when i'm feeling weak. But the only reason i continue to wear it is because i sincerely believe it will please Allah. So all these arguments about security, safety, terrorist threat, harrassment, abuse, alienation blah blah blah are insignifant in the greater scheme of things. If I contemplate when times are hard in my life (like now), or when someone close passes away or there's some tragedy in my life, I realise what third parties think about my dress or beliefs or anything else about me doesn't really matter at all, because when I die I will stand alone before Allah. Will I want to stand before Him (swt) and say i didn't do XYZ in religion or life because i was afraid of what others would say do or how they would react to me in general. Point is religious acts are not something you do to seek others approval. So i don't care about the abuse or sticking out like a sore thumb on the bus. I'll swallow hard when i receive abuse, ill wipe my tears and walk away,i've learnt to be tough skinned. I refuse to be a sheep for mere acceptance.

But i don't agree with Afsana on quite a few points with regards to western women. I didn't wear hijab for a very long time in my life, and for the most part of it i was never harrassed. I didn't wear western clothing to feel liberated it was the norm, that's how parents raised me.

It can't be denied without the hijab, jilbab and niqab you are free to express your individuality through your dress I miss that freedom, but it's still there only just for family viewing. Hijab, jilbab and niqabs are not designed with the intention for a woman to flaunt her personality, rather a sign that say's look here i am a muslimah and proud to be obeying my creator. (cousre nowadays the hijab industry has become fashion orientated, too many bling bling hijabs out there)Ironically when i did receive harrassment it was shortly after i started wearing the hijab? My point is harrassment doesn't stop completely because a women wears a hijab or niqab, but i believe it can reduce the likelihood of it occuring, particularly in muslim populated countries where the vast majority wear it i.e middle eastern countries.

I've been wearing niqab for about 5 yrs now, the amount of abuse i've received is minimal compared to the length of time i've been wearing it. Abuse depends on where you live, and also how strong you are yourself in dealing with it.

Domestic abuse is a huge problem in the western world true, but it's false to attribute that to non muslim population. I see it as a huge problem within muslim indopaks, not just amongst spouses but directed at children also. I mean it's not uncommon for asian parents to threaten to smack their adolescent children in front of guests. Guests won't bat an eyelid like it's the norm.

As for children treating western parents with contempt, and discarding them in old age, unfortunately muslims in the west are now following the same trend. Very few of them wish to care for their elderly parents.

You wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

...Personally i dont think women should wear niqab in this country or non Muslim countries simply...

The problem I have with this view is the same as the one I have with Sarkozy's. In both cases it is men dictating to women. Maybe we should leave the women to find their own way?

If women choose to wear it of their own accord, or not wear it of their own accord, then no one can talk about meddling.

Further, if you see the acceptance by others as a problem, how far will you capitulate?

so men are not allowed to comment or have a view on the burkha...ummmmm.... wow

i was chatting about burkha at work with non muslim guy; he was dead against it for one reason: SECURITY.
He emphasised you dont know whose underneath it, cant see face on CCTV, ppl in helmets etc have to remove them before enetering shops/banks but 'muslim women' have their own rules etc....

this view is share dby MAJORITY non muslims i have come across

another point:

Muslim women who wear niqab out of choice ONLY wear it because they think its COMPULSORY to wear it and a SIN to show their face to non-mahram men.

so whether i or other ppl disagree with niqab in the west it wont make a difference to these sisters. i envy them for wearing it even if i dont agree as it must take strong faith and willpower to do this.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Muslim women who wear niqab out of choice ONLY wear it because they think its COMPULSORY to wear it and a SIN to show their face to non-mahram men.

wrong.

You wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

this view is shared by MAJORITY non muslims i have come across

The majority of Non Muslims also think that the qur'an is wrong.

The majority of athiests think believing in God is lunacy.

Islam is not a popularity contest. You do not do something because it appeases others, but because it is the right thing to do.

are u arguing cos u are bored

did i say anything about changing your beleifs because of others.... I am simply making ppl aware that the 'security' issue is a big factor amongst non Muslims regarding niqab- if u read all my posts i have written you would have said something sensible and not sensational.

You wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

i was chatting about burkha at work with non muslim guy; he was dead against it for one reason: SECURITY.
He emphasised you dont know whose underneath it, cant see face on CCTV, ppl in helmets etc have to remove them before enetering shops/banks but 'muslim women' have their own rules etc....

this view is share dby MAJORITY non muslims i have come across

That is a bullshit argument - total prejudice. if/when swineflu takes a hold, people will be wearing masks in the street anyway.

u need to grow up- seriously. come out and speak to real ppl and be aware of what the issues are.

Noor wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Muslim women who wear niqab out of choice ONLY wear it because they think its COMPULSORY to wear it and a SIN to show their face to non-mahram men.

wrong.

OK I SHOULD SAY MOST WOMEN THAT BUT PLS DO ELABORATE

very weak arguments and i sense a feeling of devils advocate but everyone is entitled to their views

Well, you have to obey the law of the land.

If you dont like it, tough luck, leave.

France has just as much right to ban the tent, as Iran
has to force women to be in one.

France can't have it both ways:

"Oh we in France can force women to ditch the hijab,
but you guys in Iran cant tell girls to cover up".

If France said this then you can imagine which finger Iranians would show to Sarkozy.

No its not the end one.

Size matters here.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Noor wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Muslim women who wear niqab out of choice ONLY wear it because they think its COMPULSORY to wear it and a SIN to show their face to non-mahram men.

wrong.

OK I SHOULD SAY MOST WOMEN THAT BUT PLS DO ELABORATE

don't shout me

it's jummah, be nice

i have wore the niqaab in the past on a few occasions and i did not wear it because i thought it was fardh, i had my reasons. some wear it because they believe its fardh others don't. you cannot say the majority wear it because they believe it to be fardh without statistics.

Noor wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Noor wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

Muslim women who wear niqab out of choice ONLY wear it because they think its COMPULSORY to wear it and a SIN to show their face to non-mahram men.

wrong.

OK I SHOULD SAY MOST WOMEN THAT BUT PLS DO ELABORATE

don't shout me

it's jummah, be nice

i have wore the niqaab in the past on a few occasions and i did not wear it because i thought it was fardh, i had my reasons. some wear it because they believe its fardh others don't. you cannot say the majority wear it because they believe it to be fardh without statistics.

point taken, i will re-phrase: most women i know/come across/ spoken to/ aware of etc.....
actually i dont know many girls who wear for other than its fardh/waajib

btw: i wasnt shouting i just like caps lock lol

What does the French president mean by burka, because clearly ppl have different perceptions of what a burka is. To many it is like the garb afghani women were made to wear under the taliban regime, with just a mesh like veil to see through. To others it's simply a face veil like the ones worn by saudi women, and many women all over the uk and usa with a abaya or jilbab.

Omrow seems to confuse outdoor hiking equipment with the burqa, I don't think it's funny at all. Many women wear these garments out of a conviction that it is sunnah, wajib or recommended. Course there are those who wear it because they are forced to but i believe this number is small compared to those who do it through knowledge.

Most of the time i wear a two piece khimar with a face veil, but i have just purchased the full head to toe jilbab because they are better in windy weather. I know they can appear radical to many, i didn't particularly like these outfits to begin with, but I see how they offer better coverage hence i prefer them now. As for Omrows allusions to the tent, i see no resemblance, but the ground pegs would do well to hold your tongue from insulting millions of sisters across the world who wear it for no other purpose than to please Allah. I really don't understand why ppl are so against it. Go about your business feel free not to wear it, no one is forcing you to wear it are they Omrow? Why must you insult me and other sisters on your way? I really don't care what anyone wears, we don't live in a shariah state and because of this i truly believe ppl can wear what they like. Like it or lump it. All i ask is a little respect, i duno i expect it from muslims at least, but ironically they are usually the first to insult and the last to defend sisters like me.

All i ask is a little respect, i duno i expect it from muslims at least, but ironically they are usually the first to insult and the last to defend sisters like me.

i dont think any Muslims disrespects sisters wearing niqab. Omrow is just a fool so ignore him. I dont think if anyone has a different opinion to wearing the niqab that it should be seen as an insult.i may disagree with wearing niqab in the west just as scholars like shaykh nuh keller, hamza yusuf, shaykh salim ghisa etc do but like them i hav eBIG respect for women who wear it as it takes guts and strong faith to do it.

Hajjar wrote:

...As for Omrows allusions to the tent, i see no resemblance, but the ground pegs would do well to hold your tongue from insulting millions of sisters across the world who wear it for no other purpose than to please Allah.

YES!! You go, sis!

I so wanna wear a niqab now, just so I can use that line!

Isn't it true that in certain cases in history in was recommended for a man to wear a face veil - due to preventing Fitnah? (No, I'm not seriously comparing myself with them.)

Prophet Yusuf (as) springs to mind because he was so beautiful, which is one of the reasons why many converts/reverts change their name to his when they convert!