Its the clothes you wear during hajj/umrah.

Oh, thank you. I feel very ignorant now.

ihram is the special/consecrated clothing that pilgrims wear when doing hajj/umra.

actually ihram is a state.

which involved being clothed in certain ways/meeting certain criteria.

Hajjar wrote:

Address your weakenesses brothers rather than making the woman the "cause" of all your problems.

Fantastic! Do you know where the Hadith comes from? Which Book?

I think this is absolutely ridiculous.

This is how daft cultural stuff begins and then sets within Muslim communities. Today it's telling women to only reveal one eye, then tomorrow it'll be women can't work and before you know it women shouldn't see daylight for fear of a guy finding her attractive. Oh please. This type of stuff only draws people away from Islam IMO.

We already have clear guidelines on how both the male and female species should conduct themselves and so don't need any more. Yes not every girl meets the criteria and obviously, as this clearly shows, neither do the men, otherwise such a thing would not have been put forward. If someone is already doing what God has permitted, then for any human being to add or make changes to that is just really unbelieveable and disrespectful. Life is a test, everything is not supposed to be easy and self control and discipline is extremely important in Islam.

Hm... If you get rid of women from the picture, will the men be more attracted towards other men?

Fitna!

One eyed-women may look like cyclops and scare children and then they'll be told to show no eyes.

MuslimBro wrote:

One eyed-women may look like cyclops and scare children and then they'll be told to show no eyes.

Apparantly there is a big problem with vitamin D deficiency amongst women from Saudi Arabia. This is attributed to the lack of direct sunlight they recieve.

Question: If Allah (swt) desired women to be covered from head to toe whilst whenever they are outside thy house, why would He make the human body reliant on regular exposure to direct sunlight?

Ya'qub wrote:

Apparantly there is a big problem with vitamin D deficiency amongst women from Saudi Arabia. This is attributed to the lack of direct sunlight they recieve.

Question: If Allah (swt) desired women to be covered from head to toe whilst whenever they are outside thy house, why would He make the human body reliant on regular exposure to direct sunlight?

yaq'ub
u have to be the most rational person on this team
ever
I salute you

also
I agree with some girls that posted earlier
men should take some responsibility too
even wen women cover up, its not enough to them!
fair enough, yes a woman should dress modestly
but a man (and women too) is supposed to lower his gaze also

well brother yaqub you can't use rationality and human intelligence to try and understand every single law Allah has given us. Some things are not meant to be understood by us humans, but followed out of a strong conviction of faith. When humans try and rationalise everything and attempt to find a cause and effect for everything this usually leads to disbelief in any sort of religion.

I don't believe that women in saudi or anywhere else in the world who wear full hijab with a face veil are lacking in vitamin D. This is supposing such a woman doesn't remove her veil at home. She doesn't take a walk in her own back yard without the veil? She doesn't sit in a sunny room in her house? I don't sit with my curtains closed all day like a hermit, sunlight does come through my windows. I go to the park regular, and so long as no men are about i do flip over my veil. Point is sisters will take opportunities to enjoy the weather and get some sun exposure.

I was tested for this, coz my midwife thght i may be lacking vit D but i was not, in fact it was much the opposite, and she was a little surprised.

Who says this problem exists Saudi medics, or by any chance the west who generally have a disdain for anything related to Islam?

We are talking saudi arabia here - and not everything there is Islamic - some traditions are extreme and can cause problems.

If there are people there who go to these extremes, it is totally possible that there are people there lacking in Vitamin D and also common sense. (Saying that OI have no idea if there are people there lacking in sunlight derived goodness.)

(Yes, I know the link is to the DM - not the best of sources)

As for the argument of logic - I disagree with that. Allah (swt) gave us an intellect for a reason. Especially social laws/recommendations will have valid reasoning behind it - which a person may or may not know, but it is possible to learn it.

there are countless questions which lead to disbelief like if Allah created everything who created Allah.

If salah is a pillar of Islam, why is it not detailed in the Quran, but rather the ahadith.

If Allah is so great why do ppl die of disease and hunger, why test ppl with hunger what sort of merciful God does this? blah blah blah

Questioning things is fine, but there is a limit we should not cross as believers. We do not believe in cause and effect as many atheist scientists do.

Things like this cannot be understood through human intelligence alone, there is such a thing as God consciousness, and complete trust in Allah. We humans are limited in our intelligence, we should accept Allah has infinite wisdom and power and there are some things which will never make sense to us. Of this the niqab may be one such issue to some individuals.

I don't think the niqab is an extreme thing, that is what you said right, or wrong? It is not a saudi concoction either, there is ample evidence for its use within Islam. Whether is is compulsory or not is another issue

Brother yaqubs argument that if Allah created humans with a need for sun exposure why then would he order women to cover fully. Well the same could be said regarding the basic hijab without face cover. If Allah is all beautiful and creates all things beautiful why would he make women cover their bodies but allow men to show off their adornments? Or are men created ugly hence they can show their bodies off? This sort of logic cannot be used as evidence for disregarding Islamic beliefs, such as the hijab or niqab, they are flawed.

I suggest brother yaqub asks a scholar in one of the 4 madhabs his question about why Allah made humans with a need for sun exposure yet orders women to cover in niqab? I'm sure he would respect their answer more than mine, coz i know he does not have much regard for anything i happen to mutter. I do not blame him, i am just a layman ask those who know, not ignorant ppl like me.

btw i never said i agreed with the scholar in the matter of women leaving one eye covered. I happen to think its a woman choice.

yash <3

Hajjar wrote:

I don't think the niqab is an extreme thing, that is what you said right, or wrong? It is not a saudi concoction either, there is ample evidence for its use within Islam. Whether is is compulsory or not is another issue

Nope, that is not what I said, or atleast, not what I meant to say. If someone wants to wear the niqab, kudos to that person because that IMO takes strength of character, especially if it has not been enforced by another individual. (I will be sort of PC and not say "her"...)

The woman in that linked article was doing niqab from HER HUSBAND and demanded a divorce when after 30 years of marriage he got curious and had a look at her face.

According to that article/woman, women doing niqab from their husbands was a normal thing in that tribe too. That is what I am calling not only extreme, but wrong.

As for the sunlight Vs Niqab thingy, how modern houses are constructed could have a big thingy on how much sunlight a person gets while in the home - if the house is like a box with no natural light (like how some residences for foreigners who work there seem to be), that is not an argument against niqab, and also not an argument against the need for sunlight.

btw i never said i agreed with the scholar in the matter of women leaving one eye covered. I happen to think its a woman choice.

I agree with you there, that its the woman's choice, but I do think that scholar has his logic twisted and wrong.

Sorry, Hajjar, but I still disagree that we cannot question or think. See, Islam is the truth, it's rational and it has nothing to hide (unlike some public figures). There's always a reason why Allah has ordered us to do something, even if we or some scholar may not know it at the time.
I think a real reason for disbelief is when theists are unable to defend Islam because they are afraid to even question with an open mind.
I actually have an answer for your "questions". For example, Allah (swt) exists outside of time and space, He is not a physical body like we imagine. People get tested all the time, but the point of the test is for us to have faith in Allah and to think of solutions rather than sit there and blame Allah, what good is that gonna do?

Hajjar wrote:

well brother yaqub you can't use rationality and human intelligence to try and understand every single law Allah has given us. Some things are not meant to be understood by us humans, but followed out of a strong conviction of faith. When humans try and rationalise everything and attempt to find a cause and effect for everything this usually leads to disbelief in any sort of religion.

Hmmm... Couldn't disagree with you more. It was the rationality of Islam which led me to convert to it in the first place. There aren't any rules/laws which don't seem to have some logical sense/purpose - i.e. either the betterment of the individual or the society. Fair enough, I know some people discourage asking too many questions, but I would never have joined a religion that just says 'do this' unless it also added 'because...'

Hajjar wrote:

I don't believe that women in saudi or anywhere else in the world who wear full hijab with a face veil are lacking in vitamin D. This is supposing such a woman doesn't remove her veil at home. She doesn't take a walk in her own back yard without the veil? She doesn't sit in a sunny room in her house? I don't sit with my curtains closed all day like a hermit, sunlight does come through my windows. I go to the park regular, and so long as no men are about i do flip over my veil. Point is sisters will take opportunities to enjoy the weather and get some sun exposure.

I was tested for this, coz my midwife thght i may be lacking vit D but i was not, in fact it was much the opposite, and she was a little surprised.

Who says this problem exists Saudi medics, or by any chance the west who generally have a disdain for anything related to Islam?

Regarding niqab - I wasn't trying to have a go at women who wear it.

Obviously not EVERY woman who wears niqab is automatically going to have vit D deficiency. But the point goes the same way too - just because YOU don't have a problem with vit D, it doesn't automatically mean other women don't either.

My main problem is with people dictating what others can and can't do/wear - when the laws won't be applied to themselves in return.

And what you said about Saudi doctors is just silly - the VAST majority of doctors (and experts of all types) in Saudi are 'imported' from abroad. The woman who was telling me this has spent most of her life in the middle east - even though she is originally from 'the evil west' - she certainly doesn't have a disdain for anything Islam.

In islam we can question and think, i never said otherwise. But I believe there is a limit. There is a limit because human intelligence is limited. Humans do not have the infinite wisdom of Allah. Humans should not expect answers for everything to be accomodated, because they will not be in this life.

Lamp you said the following:

there's always a reason why Allah has ordered us to do something, even if we or some scholar may not know it at the time.

This just about sums up the point i made above human intelligence is limited, Allah has infinite wisdom and knowledge.

If i did not question things i would not be on this forum debating issues.

If vitamin D is lacking why hasn't a big study been carried out to show this, and maybe encourage women to get more sun exposure? If women are lacking in vitamin D in saudi won't they also lack in the uk and other parts of the world. So makes me wonder why women are not offered vitamin tests by the nhs as an option? If it is such a concern to these medics?

I never said the west was evil but they don't exactly love Arab muslims. They are known for ridiculing the form of Islam the Arabs follow. Yes it may be extreme but I don't particularly like these individuals ridiculing Wahabbi Islam as they so often put it. To me they are ridiculing Islam itself, whilst pretending to be attacking this particular sect.

Hajjar wrote:

Lamp you said the following:

there's always a reason why Allah has ordered us to do something, even if we or some scholar may not know it at the time.

This just about sums up the point i made above human intelligence is limited, Allah has infinite wisdom and knowledge.

Which means there always IS a reason behind every law. You can only truly support a religion if you question it.

Quote:

I never said the west was evil but they don't exactly love Arab muslims. They are known for ridiculing the form of Islam the Arabs follow. Yes it may be extreme but I don't particularly like these individuals ridiculing Wahabbi Islam as they so often put it. To me they are ridiculing Islam itself, whilst pretending to be attacking this particular sect.

So how do you think they should challenge them, if at all?

Hajjar wrote:

I never said the west was evil but they don't exactly love Arab muslims. They are known for ridiculing the form of Islam the Arabs follow. Yes it may be extreme but I don't particularly like these individuals ridiculing Wahabbi Islam as they so often put it. To me they are ridiculing Islam itself, whilst pretending to be attacking this particular sect.

Hmmm... perhaps. I agree there are some people who have horrible views and use 'attacking Wahabbis' or 'attacking Islamism' as a screen for criticisms of Islam in general.

But I think it's a bit unfair to generalise about people in the west in the way you did by saying 'they', though; the same way I think it's unfair for people to generalise about Islam or Muslims. There are plenty of normal British people who aren't Islamophobic in the slightest, perhaps it differs around the country. But on the whole I think its much more accurate when you said 'these individuals'.

Now that the discussion of womens rights/demands is over for now, going back to another point:

Hajjar wrote:

If salah is a pillar of Islam, why is it not detailed in the Quran, but rather the ahadith.

Just a clarification here as I had read that as not being mentioned, but you never wrote that, just being detailed.

As for mentioned, it is. there are a few verses, once along the lines of "Indeed Prayer has been proscribed upon the believers at specified times."

No idea why I posted this as I am not countering anything. Actually, I do know why I am posting - I had read that sentence previously as "not mentioned at all" and had come here looking for it to reply, but I had remembered/read it wrong in the first place.

Its not the first time, and it wont be the last time that Ive heard of a person in the medical profession raise the issue of vitamin D deficiency amongst muslim women. It seems more of an arrogant assumption, rather than anything based on fact. The first time I heard about it was back in 1990s :shock: So Allah knows how old and tired it is. I dont want to hear things through the grapevine etc and it is plainly visible that there is no evidence to support it.

I have YET to see any concrete evidence to substantiate this common complaint, and frankly, and tired of hearing it. I read a female GP comments in reply to this claim. She pointed out that you only require approx 20 minutes of sunlight so as to top up your vit D, and that this amount would be sufficient to last for the rest of the year. :idea: There are also other sources of vitamin such as in oily fish.

As for the Saudi Imam? suggesting that women only look through one eye, its not new. Read English translation of Quran by Hilali and Khan and you will see it mentioned there (albeit in their added commentry).

Amal wrote:

As for the Saudi Imam? suggesting that women only look through one eye, its not new. Read English translation of Quran by Hilali and Khan and you will see it mentioned there (albeit in their added commentry).

That is the translation that is 'officailly recognised' by Saudi, and it's what they give out for free if you ever visit the Qur'an factory near Madina, and it's what they supply all the mosques in English-speaking countries with.

I have to be honest, I much prefer many other translations. That one is too prescriptive and adds way too many things in brakets, implying that that is the One True interpretation of the meaning.

Ooh I didn't know about it being mentioned in the commentary of an english translation of the Quran. Quite surprised by that. And that it is not more enforced then... I don't think I've ever seen a woman revealing only one eye. I think that would draw more attention.

You know whats weird?? Being kissed by someone u dont know...who is also wearing a niqab!

looool@power of silence how would that happen? I;m sure you wouldn't kiss some random niqabi without finding out who they were first right?

Assalamu alaikum Wednesday

Me being nosy what kind of work do you do?

I take my niqab down so long as no men are about, but i know some sisters prefer to keep it on in front of non muslim women. Personally i do what ever is possible to make the person I'm speaking with comfortable.

I do feel I am neglected in a lot of environments, retail shops, docs surgery, library for example. It's like they don't see me or ignore me on purpose, or give out this negative vibe, that they'd rather not serve me. I.e in local library i know some of the staff are shocked that i can read books to my children, but some of them just wish they didn't have to serve me.

In some places they address my husband even though the topic concerns me. Even for a bank account the lady didn't bother to ask if i spoke English she just addressed my husband. My husband just said my wife can speak for herself, and the lady went red like a tomato. I did feel sorry for her, i guess it's down to management and a lack of staff training, maybe she didn't want to cause offense by asking if i spoke English so she addressed my husband i dunno.

I'm hardly what you call discreet in appearance. But my husband has told me i need to speak up like i do at home lol, and be more assertive outside.I truly believe he is right coz strong sisters like my somali sisters are known to be very dominant and forthcoming, no librarian will give them attitude, i am just a walk over like my husband tells me day in day out, too nice for my own good. Maybe i am a walkover but i don't think i should be nasty to someone just coz they are to me.

Apart from being linked to Islam symbolically, I think the main reason niqabis are ignored is because many ppl think we don't speak English. they assume we are non english speakers from the indopak region or some Arab country. We can also appear like timid subordinate creatures depending on how we carry ourselves outside in the niqab. i.e walking with head down shoulder slouched compared to standing upright giving ppl eye contact if necessary. so we are easily ignored or easily abused. Note: i am not trying to get any sympathy from anyone since i chose to wear the niqab no one forced me, just highlighting places where i think we are unfairly treated.

Hajjar wrote:

looool@power of silence how would that happen? I;m sure you wouldn't kiss some random niqabi without finding out who they were first right?

errm i ddnt kiss anyone! i was kissed by someone wearing a niqab. i got out the mosque and my mum was talking to her and the she goes "is this ur daughter?" *hug, kiss*. i may or may not have seen her without her niqaab inside but i ddnt/dont have a clue who she is! lol