An investigation has been called for, as it should be. At the moment this information is based entirely on reports from eyewitnesses and the agencies concerned are not making allegations. We can only await further information.

wednesday seems very sympathetic towards israel!
nobody should be sympathetic towards israel...nobody!

wednesday wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

wednesday seems very sympathetic towards israel!
nobody should be sympathetic towards israel...nobody!

I am genuinely a very caring person thanks for depicting it appropriately.

It's not sympathy. All I see them do is fight for a cause and I really believe that if this is the way forward then it should carry on. Like Elmert himself said, "the sooner, the better" as a response to "when will it end?" ... I can't deny that It's NOT happening, no one can and altho I am deeply hurt by the 'killing' and waghayra waghayra... I also believe that it's onto something.

Patience must be observed at all times.

I think Ed was a bit harsh there even though he made a short comment.

But if Israel is fighting for a cause, then so is Hamas and all the other Palestinians.

Whatever the merits of Israel's cause, it is Israel that does the most damage. Israel kills more people, destroys more homes and wrecks lives more completely. And I don't mean Israel kills a few more people than Hamas does - more by a factor of almost 100.

Even neutral observers recognise Israel is the aggressor. Just check out websites of some human rights organisations.
- Amnesty International
- Human Rights Watch
- B'Tselem (Israeli human rights org)

The Palestinians are the victims here. Israel is the aggressor.

wednesday wrote:

I don't know how others work, but I've found that being resonable and NOT arguing about somethign that is already happening through irrational manners and gestures provides us with valuable time to think and to reflect upon the situation rather than blame and shame.

I don't know what else to say but acting all agressive and unreasonable is not me. It blocks you from understanding those around you and may lead you into an abyss of selfishness and that aint 'humanly'.

I will remind myself of human rights and morality from what you have linked. Thanks.

Same with me. Alot of people are protesting. Alot of people are swearing and some people in Gaza are firing rockets into Israel. I pass no judgement on any of that except to say, it doesn't seem to have stopped the butchering of Palestinian people.

So like Wednesday, I'll try to understand why Israel drops the bombs in the way it does. And why apart from Muslims and hippies, no-one cares too much.

Dawud wrote:

So like Wednesday, I'll try to understand why Israel drops the bombs in the way it does. And why apart from Muslims and hippies, no-one cares too much.

I don't think that's quite fair. Then again, Muslims aren't great at reaching out to the wider community when it comes to this. I see the point of this author's article:

Bringing God to the protest won't help the cause
Sunny Hundal in the Guardian CiF
I marched on Saturday to express solidarity with Palestinians and anger at Israel's bombings, not to attend a religious demo

On Saturday I attended the London demo held in solidarity for the people of Gaza. I realise that is enough to set off an argument worth 300
comments but I'm not interested in having that discussion for now. You're welcome to read my writings on PP or LC. I attended the demo, I support Palestinian self-determination, I support the right for Israel to exist, and I oppose the invasion of Gaza. End of story.

My quibble is more with some aspects of the demo itself. Wandering around and taking pictures I didn't hear anything antisemitic, which was a relief. A bunch of "rudeboys" with their faces covered by bandanas performed like monkeys for the television cameras as usual. The atmosphere was generally light, even while charged with emotion. Not many cheered when George Galloway was introduced (thank God for small mercies).

I had an uncomfortable feeling I couldn't articulate until I was leaving via Charing Cross tube. It was crowded inside as we made our way to the trains. Two girls started to chant "We are Hamas" (I'm not, thank you very much) but were almost immediately drowned out by "Free free Palestine" before I had the chance to get annoyed. And then it came: Allah hu Akbar, Allah hu Akbar on repeat. Our fellow white travellers said little.

And therein lies my problem. I came to the march to express solidarity with Palestinians and express my anger at Israel's bombings. I didn't come to express solidarity with Hamas, nor want to come to a religious march. If I wanted to hear "God is Great" I could have gone to a mosque or a gurudwara. But I didn't. People can say what they want – freedom of speech etc – but I think this encapsulates a broader problem.

British Muslim organisations have broadly failed to capitalise on the widespread support for Palestinians in the UK, compared to the United
States, by constantly bringing religion into a dispute essentially about land.

Muslims aren't alone in this: every year Sikh groups hold a protest in London to highlight human rights abuses by the Indian government since the invasion of the Golden Temple in 1984. And almost every year you get people burning the Indian flag and screaming Khalistan Zindabad and other religious slogans to keep up the symbolism.

Suffice to say their behaviour ensures most Sikhs don't bother coming and an issue about human rights gets hijacked by people who want a separate homeland for Sikhs. The mixture of religion with human rights by extremist elements denies it widespread support and the Indian government can afford to ignore it.

The same applies here. Most non-Muslims who go to such marches don't really have an interest in exploring Islam: they care about human rights. Religious chants merely end up alienating the very people Palestinians need the support of – a wide swathe of the population.

But many Britons, despite their sympathies, won't I suspect because they feel such events are dominated by religious types who like to shout
Allah hu Akbar, and rudeboys with kaffiyeh bandanas who like to prance around in front of the television. Let me tell it to you straight: it doesn't help the cause.

The issue needs a certain amount of political maturity that neither the Socialist Workers Party nor the Muslim Association of Britain, the chief
organisers, are able to muster. Arguably, this is done to the origin of these organisation themselves.

Either way, it also explains why, following the massive anti-war march of 2003, not much really followed through. Their focus was on creating a
narrow Muslim/socialists alliance which ended up turning off most well-intentioned middle-of-the-road people not long after. The "We Are
Hizbullah" movement was especially ugly, following the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, as is the inclusion of extremist groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir.

My point is this: unless Muslim, Sikh and other organisations find ways to broaden their coalitions, whether through language or focus, then
their issues can easily remain neglected. Many of the Muslim organisations who organise these marches, for example, are rarely seen expressing solidarity when non-Muslims are involved in human rights abuses. I think that's short-sighted.

If support for the Palestinian cause, or even British Muslim issues generally, is to be expanded, then it takes a public relations effort too. It doesn't help when some give their opponents easy ammunition to demonise them as a whole.

If the Jews had the right to go 'back home', it would be to the countries that participated in or condoned the nazi's war, many of which are now supporting the occupation of Palestine. There were many Arab Jews pre 1948, many were harboured by Arab countries during the Holocaust, however the very term 'Arab Jew' has become an oxymoron.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3107219.stm

Thanks Ya'qub that was intersting and worth reading!

BD Brother wrote:

If the Jews had the right to go 'back home', it would be to the countries that participated in or condoned the nazi's war, many of which are now supporting the occupation of Palestine. There were many Arab Jews pre 1948, many were harboured by Arab countries during the Holocaust, however the very term 'Arab Jew' has become an oxymoron.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3107219.stm

Unfortunately, that argument doesn't hold any sway any more.

If you were saying it 50 or even 40 years ago, perhaps. But the fact is most Israelis, certainly all the Israeli soldiers, were born since the creation of the state of Israel. It is unhelpful, and down right silly, to say 'lets go back in time to the borders that suit us most', otherwise couldn't the Italians say 'well, actually, Jerusalem used to be part of the Roman Empire, so we should have the right to sovereignty, thank you very much.'

Every country on earth is the product of some sort of invasion at some time or other in history... looking back all the time won't give us anything except neck-ache.

wednesday wrote:

And a back-ache by bending over backwards just to try and see it clearer.

Or... being beaten by Israeli soldiers.

We should make a movie about this. When the Israeli soldiers come we should play the Empire March.