Who was there first?
I don’t want a long post or any copied and pasted crap so please go straight to the point!
BTW Is Jerusalem in Palestine or Israel?
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Basically it doesnt matter who was there first what matters is how people who had lived ther were kicked out.
The order in which religions emerged were Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
But that wont answer the question.
The whole Israeli thing is summed up like this (to me anyways)
It is like the druids occupying an area of land in the UK because they 'used' to practice whatever they did and beliving it was theres.
Would this happen No bloody way! Would the UN carve the UK to give them a homeland - no bloody way. For example they would take stonehenge and make it there capital city.
I know i havent explained it fully to u but its the most simple analagy i could come up with for u and one that describes wat happened.
A clever mind can entertain a thought without accepting it
Abraham (or Ibrahim AS) is the forefather top both arabs and jews, so arguing who was there first is false.
Also non arab Palestinians are indegenous to the region, arriving there before both jews and arabs.
However the current fight is wether you can kick someone out just so your people can return to their roots. This is evil.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I know I said that I don’t want any long posts, well I take that back, please explain in more detail…
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
deleted
Two entire generations have grown up in Israel at it's present boundaries, consequently two entire generations of palestinians have not grown up there. Palestinian claims to the lands other than the PA, gaza and the west bank are based on nothing more than vengeance and the religious arguments which they so detest are used to justify the initial creation of Israel.
I truly believe the key to Palestine/Israel is to keep one's eye on what is truly important - the people. Arguments about places, times, and religions are all secondary to the human tragedy going on there. gaza and the west bank should be given to the Palestinians - and no more land taken from them. As for Jerusalem and the lands taken in the 60s and 70s, those should remain Israeli - as there has simply been too much elapsed time.
I don't think I can trust either the Israelis or the Palestinians to treat each other in surrendured territory with anything close to what we have come to cherish in human rights - and mass soviet-style forced immigrations are out of the question.
If you get caught up in this "who was there first" for anything beyond 18 years, or "who God gave it to" you will never find a solution.
Only deeper layers of anger at a pitiful and ever more atrocious tragedy.
I don’t get it… I heard they got troops there...what’s it got to with America and Britain?... why can’t they let them live here or in America if they are so bothered about them… why kill innocent people?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Since we created Israel (well... Britain really) it was our duty to defend the fledgling state from outside invading forces - much like Iraq is an American duty right now. Unfortunately the Arabs attacked several times requiring constant American and British military support, without those supply lines, Israel dies and bad stuff happens.
On top of that the US has vital interests throughout the region, thus we are supplied military bases to pursue those interests which may or may not have anything to do with Israel at all. - We do this in Saudi Arabia as well.
A crime was committed a long time ago so it should not be redressed. :?
What bad stuff happens if Israel is no more?
A very large population is stuck in enemy terroritory, completely at the mercy of very angry people.
Vae Victus
How is such a crime redressed? Isn't that how we got into this mess in the first place?
Besides the two generations of Israelis who have grown up in Jerusalem and other parts of Israel are not to blame for being born.
If US stops arming Israel to the teeth and instead compensates Palestineans along with real work towards peace then that would be a controlled cessation of hostilities.
But no. US has to arm and fund Israel to keep the cycle going.
Surely they can find sanctuary in America.
But the idea of the ending of the modern state of Israel is puerly hyperthetical.
Ofcourse the people who were born and raised in Israel and know no other home home IMO have the right to remain in Israel.
That does not mean that the Israeli state should not compensate the Paelstineans who are left with only a fraction of what was their country.
Israel has to be armed to the teeth, they have been invaded on more that several occasions by literally every neighbor they have (except for the mediteranian at low tide) - sometimes all at once with a coordinated attack.
If that doesn't require "arming to the teeth" I dunno what does.
Besides, we use our military strangle over Israel to produce some very remarkable and reasonable things on the road to peace. How else do you think a hardliner like Sharon suddenly comes to the conclusion that it is necessary to pull every last settler out of gaza?
If that's not "real work toward peace" I don't know what is. - I don't suppose you would have any concrete examples to stand up to public scrutiny would you?
Using our military control over Israel to prevent them from further inflicting the Palestinians is good, moral, correct, and above all necessary. Using that to go any further and surrender lands that 2 generations have lived on is something entirely different - and that is what the arab world is asking for. - Thats abandoning them.
Israel, Palestine has Bethlehem though.
Don't muslims call Jerusalem Al Quds?
With this pullout Sharon is trying to maintain the Jewish majority in the state of Israel. If it seems like a step towards peace then that's just a bonus.
deleted
As of 1996 and 2003 the ethnic and religious breakdown of Israel is as follows
Ethnic groups:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)
Religions:
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html#People
I don't think 187,000 settlers is going to vastly improve upon that number - even if he did need the boost.
And politically this is unpopular among the Israelis and even moreso among the settlers, and to an even greater degree in his own party - Benjamin Netanyahu resigned his position not but 3 weeks ago, Sharon might very well lose his job.
If this is what he calls clever political manuevring/gerrymandering - Otto von Bismark he is not.
Huh, I just read the sub-headline for this article this morning. :roll:
Having read the article properly it seems Shimon Peres agrees that this is about maintaining the Jewish majority.
Your article is certainly persuasive. Despite the census numbers perhaps this a great part of the impetus is to add to the Jewish population in Israel proper. But your article pretty well establishes what I was mainly arguing earlier that the US uses it's power to influence the State toward greater participation in the peace process:
[i]"All this, at the very low price of removing 8,000 of the 400,000 settlers in the occupied territories, and with the additional benefit of gaining easy popularity in the rest of the world and, most important, pleasing the US."[/i]
Given the evidence from your own article how can you say the US is not doing enough.
finally some intelligent doscussion! (not knocking anyone else, but in the last few days all we have been doing is playing those stupid games!).
I am sure if Israel had not decided to remove the settlements, the US gov would not have a diferent opinion on the situaton.
(I do see the removals as a good first sign... as long as they follow removing their terrorist camps from the West Bank aswell.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Irfan was always good at making me think a little further.
It don't help when we agree on alot of points...
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salam
Palestinians were there first and then Jews came from Egypt with Moses and defeated the "Philestine".
Jeruslam is in Israel since 1967.
Omrow
like i said b4 junaid sounds feminin, every1 took da piss when i was going out with a girl called jade, (i still haven't 4given my mother for calling me that) Judda is what mi mates call me, I have never heard of a tribe with my nickname b4...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
It was one of the tribes of Israel in the South, they broke off and maintained Judea as a semi-autonomous state in biblical times.
salaam
[b]Gaza Ends Greater Israel Dream: Israeli Historian
By Hadi Yahmid, IOL Correspondent
http://islam-online.net/English/News/2005-08/17/article06.shtml
PARIS, August 17, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The cherished dream by Israelis and extremist Jews of a “Greater Israel” from the Nile to the Euphrates is over after the Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip, a famed Israeli historian and researcher has said.[/b]
“It is quite obvious that the Jewish settlers who went to dwell in Gaza or West Bank settlements, whether due to biblical claims or cheap land prices, have waken up to the harsh reality that the Greater Israel dream ended in a fiasco,” Paris-based Esther Benbassa told IslamOnline.net Wednesday, August 17.
Benbassa, also director of the Sorbonne’s High Institute for Jewish Studies, said the West Bank settlements will meet the same fate of those in the Gaza Strip.
But she ruled out that the West Bank pullout would take place in the foreseeable future.
“Bear in mind the large population of Jewish settlers (some 230,000) in the West Bank as well as Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who will strongly oppose future pullouts as they unshakably believe that Judea and Samaria (West Bank) was biblical land,” the Peace Now activist said.
She said Jews should come to terms with the fact that maintaining and protecting settlements in the West Bank cost the Israeli government dearly and scuppers the peace process.
“I, to my way of thinking, believe that West Bank settlements should be also uprooted even if it takes place according to a long-term timetable,” Benbassa said.
Following 38 years of occupation, Israel officially launched its Gaza Strip pullout Monday, August 15, to evacuate and dismantle all 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip and four of 120 in the West Bank.
Israeli troops began the forced evacuation Wednesday of thousands of defiant settlers.
Israel once occupied some Palestinian territories from its wars with the Arabs in 1967 and 1973. It controlled part of the Sinai in Egypt, the Golan Heights in Syria, the Gaza strip and the West Bank.
In 1982, it invaded southern Lebanon but was forced to withdraw in 2000 after years of unabated resistance from the Lebanese resistance movement Hezbollah.
Pressure
Jewish settlers defy evacuation from a rooftop. (Reuters)
Benbassa, the author of “Imaginary Israel” and “Transmission and passages in Jewish World”, said Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had to do something in the face of mounting international pressure to revive a stalled peace process especially after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas assumed office.
“Though it has created a political crisis in Israel, I’m sure that the pullout will live up to peace expectations of many Israelis,” she said.
She added that Sharon, who created and nurtured the settlements, has convinced a broad section of the Israelis of the importance of the pullout.
“Many Israelis have called for immediate settlement of the conflict with the Palestinians, which helped Sharon sell his disengagement plan,” she said.
Benbassa said if the Gaza pullout is called a victory by the Palestinians, it is then a victory for both sides and thanks to late Egyptian president Mohammad Anwar El-Sadat, Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin and the Israeli left wing.
The withdrawal of Israeli occupation forces from the Gaza Strip is hailed by Palestinians as a victory and decried by Israeli opponents as a surrender to the Intifada and resistance.
But the Palestinians fear Sharon devised the Gaza plan as a ruse to cement Israel's hold on most of the West Bank, where 230,000 settlers and 2.4 million Palestinians live.
New Party
Benbassa further said that Sharon’s Likud career has become increasingly vulnerable after the pullout.
“Sharon will likely form a new party because he lost his stature inside his Likud party,” she said. “He has been dreaming of making history whether he was a wartime leader or now as a prime minister.”
Most Likud members voted against Sharon's withdrawal in a party referendum in 2004 and were outraged when he went ahead with his plans in spite of the vote.
Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu resigned last week over the cabinet's final rubber stamp vote on the Gaza withdrawal.
Benbassa said Sharon has fully understood how the Israelis think.
“He is fully aware that the Israelis are fed up with bombings, watertight security and restricted freedoms for the sake of the settlers,” she added.
Benbassa said that this new reality could make coexistence with the Palestinians as a fait accompli.
Of the world’s 13 million to 14 million Jews, a minority—5.26 million—make their home in Israel, and immigration has largely dried up due to the Palestinian resistance attacks.
According to 2004 estimates by the Palestine Bureau of Statistics, Palestinians are projected to outnumber the Jewish population in the 1948 occupied Palestinian territories by 2010.
On April 18, 1948, Palestinian Tiberius was captured by Zionist gangs, putting its 5,500 Palestinian residents in flight. On April 22, Haifa fell to the Zionist mobs and 70,000 Palestinians fled.
On April 25, the Zionists began bombarding civilian sectors of the Palestinian city of Jaffa - the largest city in Palestine at the time, terrifying the 750,000 inhabitants into panicky flight.
On May 14, the day before the creation of Israel on the rubble of Palestine, Jaffa completely surrendered to the much better-equipped Zionist gangs and only about 4,500 of its population remained.
wasalaam
Now that it's pretty clear the Israeli's are quite serious about withdrawal from Gaza, what can we expect from the Palestinian side?
Is this the end of land grabs for both parties or will there be more bickering?
Will this result in fewer attacks from both sides?
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