Have they lifted that 'shoot to kill' rulse on suspected terrorists now?

Or is that still in play?

Coz im sure you dont wanna go around shouting im a terrorist if that rules still in force.

"Seraphim" wrote:

Have they lifted that 'shoot to kill' rulse on suspected terrorists now?

Or is that still in play?

Coz im sure you dont wanna go around shouting im a terrorist if that rules still in force.

i don't think they have lifted the 'shoot to kill' rule, but i thought they might have done because of the Brazilian man they shot.

Those arrested had no tickets, some even had no passports

Quote:

In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.

link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/

"zara" wrote:

i don't think they have lifted the 'shoot to kill' rule, but i thought they might have done because of the Brazilian man they shot.

Yep it's still in place. The police officers who shot the Brazilian man haven't even been charged. The met has only been charged by the CPS for 'health & safety'.

"Newbie" wrote:

Those arrested had no tickets, some even had no passports

I heard that the police found a large quantity of money in one of the house raided. Apparently they were gonna use the money to buy the tickets.

you hear the gov is thinking about using complete body scanners? I initially thght they reveal a skeletal pic of the body and any illegal contents. However currently it actually reveals an image of the naked body in a very graphic way. I would never fly anywhere if i had to be subjected to such an invasive procedure.

Apparently gov is looking into making a more distorted view of the body so modesty is maintained whilst still performing it's job. Look at yahoo news :?

:shock:

It looks like i'll be staying put here for a while...

"yashmaki" wrote:

you hear the gov is thinking about using complete body scanners? I initially thght they reveal a skeletal pic of the body and any illegal contents. However currently it actually reveals an image of the naked body in a very graphic way. I would never fly anywhere if i had to be subjected to such an invasive procedure.

Apparently gov is looking into making a more distorted view of the body so modesty is maintained whilst still performing it's job. Look at yahoo news :?

:shock: is that necessary???

Really good articles on chemistry.

Quote:

[size=18]Mass murder in the skies: was the plot feasible?[/size]

Binary liquid explosives are a sexy staple of Hollywood thrillers. It would be tedious to enumerate the movie terrorists who've employed relatively harmless liquids that, when mixed, immediately rain destruction upon an innocent populace, like the seven angels of God's wrath pouring out their bowls full of pestilence and pain.

The funny thing about these movies is, we never learn just which two chemicals can be handled safely when separate, yet instantly blow us all to kingdom come when combined. Nevertheless, we maintain a great eagerness to believe in these substances, chiefly because action movies wouldn't be as much fun if we didn't.

Now we have news of the recent, supposedly real-world, terrorist plot to destroy commercial airplanes by smuggling onboard the benign precursors to a deadly explosive, and mixing up a batch of liquid death in the lavatories. So, The Register has got to ask, were these guys for real, or have they, and the counterterrorist officials supposedly protecting us, been watching too many action movies?

We're told that the suspects were planning to use TATP, or triacetone triperoxide, a high explosive that supposedly can be made from common household chemicals unlikely to be caught by airport screeners. A little hair dye, drain cleaner, and paint thinner - all easily concealed in drinks bottles - and the forces of evil have effectively smuggled a deadly bomb onboard your plane.

Or at least that's what we're hearing, and loudly, through the mainstream media and its legions of so-called "terrorism experts." But what do these experts know about chemistry? Less than they know about lobbying for Homeland Security pork, which is what most of them do for a living. But they've seen the same movies that you and I have seen, and so the myth of binary liquid explosives dies hard.
Better killing through chemistry

Making a quantity of TATP sufficient to bring down an airplane is not quite as simple as ducking into the toilet and mixing two harmless liquids together.

First, you've got to get adequately concentrated hydrogen peroxide. This is hard to come by, so a large quantity of the three per cent solution sold in pharmacies might have to be concentrated by boiling off the water. Only this is risky, and can lead to mission failure by means of burning down your makeshift lab before a single infidel has been harmed.

But let's assume that you can obtain it in the required concentration, or cook it from a dilute solution without ruining your operation. Fine. The remaining ingredients, acetone and sulfuric acid, are far easier to obtain, and we can assume that you've got them on hand.

Now for the fun part. Take your hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid, measure them very carefully, and put them into drinks bottles for convenient smuggling onto a plane. It's all right to mix the peroxide and acetone in one container, so long as it remains cool. Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.

It's best to fly first class and order Champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate - especially if you have those cold gel-packs handy to supplement the ice, and the Styrofoam chiller handy for insulation - to get you through the cookery without starting a fire in the lavvie.
Easy does it

Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.

After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.

The genius of this scheme is that TATP is relatively easy to detonate. But you must make enough of it to crash the plane, and you must make it with care to assure potency. One needs quality stuff to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale," as Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson put it. While it's true that a slapdash concoction will explode, it's unlikely to do more than blow out a few windows. At best, an infidel or two might be killed by the blast, and one or two others by flying debris as the cabin suddenly depressurizes, but that's about all you're likely to manage under the most favorable conditions possible.

We believe this because a peer-reviewed 2004 study in the Journal of the American Chemical Society (JACS) entitled "Decomposition of Triacetone Triperoxide is an Entropic Explosion" tells us that the explosive force of TATP comes from the sudden decomposition of a solid into gasses. There's no rapid oxidizing of fuel, as there is with many other explosives: rather, the substance changes state suddenly through an entropic process, and quickly releases a respectable amount of energy when it does. (Thus the lack of ingredients typically associated with explosives makes TATP, a white crystalline powder resembling sugar, difficult to detect with conventional bomb sniffing gear.)

[b]Mrs. Satan[/b]

By now you'll be asking why these jihadist wannabes didn't conspire simply to bring TATP onto planes, colored with a bit of vegetable dye, and disguised as, say, a powdered fruit-flavored drink. The reason is that they would be afraid of failing: TATP is notoriously sensitive and unstable. Mainstream journalists like to tell us that terrorists like to call it "the mother of Satan." (Whether this reputation is deserved, or is a consequence of homebrewing by unqualified hacks, remains open to debate.)

It's been claimed that the 7/7 bombers used it, but this has not been positively confirmed. Some sources claim that they used C-4, and others that they used RDX. Nevertheless, the belief that they used TATP has stuck with the media, although going about in a crowded city at rush hour with an unstable homebrew explosive in a backpack is not the brightest of all possible moves. It's surprising that none of the attackers enjoyed an unscheduled launch into Paradise.

So, assuming that the homebrew variety of TATP is highly sensitive and unstable - or at least that our inept jihadists would believe that - to avoid getting blown up in the taxi on the way to the airport, one might, if one were educated in terror tactics primarily by hollywood movies, prefer simply to dump the precursors into an airplane toilet bowl and let the mother of Satan work her magic. Indeed, the mixture will heat rapidly as TATP begins to form, and it will soon explode. But this won't happen with much force, because little TATP will have formed by the time the explosion occurs.

We asked University of Rhode Island Chemistry Professor Jimmie C. Oxley, who has actual, practical experience with TATP, if this is a reasonable assumption, and she tolds us that merely dumping the precursors together would create "a violent reaction," but not a detonation.

To release the energy needed to bring down a plane (far more difficult to do than many imagine, as Aloha Airlines Flight 243 neatly illustrates), it's necessary to synthesize a good amount of TATP with care.
Jack Bauer sense

So the fabled binary liquid explosive - that is, the sudden mixing of hydrogen peroxide and acetone with sulfuric acid to create a plane-killing explosion, is out of the question. Meanwhile, making TATP ahead of time carries a risk that the mission will fail due to premature detonation, although it is the only plausible approach.

Certainly, if we can imagine a group of jihadists smuggling the necessary chemicals and equipment on board, and cooking up TATP in the lavatory, then we've passed from the realm of action blockbusters to that of situation comedy.

It should be small comfort that the security establishments of the UK and the USA - and the "terrorism experts" who inform them and wheedle billions of dollars out of them for bomb puffers and face recognition gizmos and remote gait analyzers and similar hi-tech phrenology gear - have bought the Hollywood binary liquid explosive myth, and have even acted upon it.

We've given extraordinary credit to a collection of jihadist wannabes with an exceptionally poor grasp of the mechanics of attacking a plane, whose only hope of success would have been a pure accident. They would have had to succeed in spite of their own ignorance and incompetence, and in spite of being under police surveillance for a year.

But the Hollywood myth of binary liquid explosives now moves governments and drives public policy. We have reacted to a movie plot. Liquids are now banned in aircraft cabins (while crystalline white powders would be banned instead, if anyone in charge were serious about security). Nearly everything must now go into the hold, where adequate amounts of explosives can easily be detonated from the cabin with cell phones, which are generally not banned.

[b]Action heroes[/b]

The al-Qaeda franchise will pour forth its bowl of pestilence and death. We know this because we've watched it countless times on TV and in the movies, just as our officials have done. Based on their behavior, it's reasonable to suspect that everything John Reid and Michael Chertoff know about counterterrorism, they learned watching the likes of Bruce Willis, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Vin Diesel, and The Rock (whose palpable homoerotic appeal it would be discourteous to emphasize).

It's a pity that our security rests in the hands of government officials who understand as little about terrorism as the Florida clowns who needed their informant to suggest attack scenarios, as the 21/7 London bombers who injured no one, as lunatic "shoe bomber" Richard Reid, as the Forest Gate nerve gas attackers who had no nerve gas, as the British nitwits who tried to acquire "red mercury," and as the recent binary liquid bomb attackers who had no binary liquid bombs.

For some real terror, picture twenty guys who understand op-sec, who are patient, realistic, clever, and willing to die, and who know what can be accomplished with a modest stash of dimethylmercury.

You won't hear about those fellows until it's too late. Our official protectors and deciders trumpet the fools they catch because they haven't got a handle on the people we should really be afraid of. They make policy based on foibles and follies, and Hollywood plots.

Meanwhile, the real thing draws ever closer. ®

[url=http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/]The Register[/url]

Now that shines alot of light on events. A very good read. (I did a Chemical Engineering at Uni, so there are places where the 'plot' could be improved IMO, but overall its as said above).

you heard the latest? looooool. Once again the US gov is acting like the world police, any possible threat to their power and they swoop down in the name of "defence". This time Bush overstepped his mark. The USA fears the growing economic power of China and it's military power which has been overlooked coz of the focus on the war on terror. Now he's claiming China could be a threat to them as a super power, now he doesn't like that. So he's suggesting Chinese military are up to no good, sounds like a pathetic excuse for another war.

The Chinese ambassador to the UN Sha Zukang, said these allegations are ridiculous and basically told Bush to shut up looooooooool. I heard it on radio five Gosh poor man get's called a cowboy, his road map for peace crap and now this dude is telling him to shut up and butt out of chinese affairs and on implication the affairs of foreign countries.

Also in response to John Prescott's comments of being called crap, the white house has replied Bush said he has been called a lot worse. So i suppose he has no hard feelings

P.S i can't find the transcript for that interview with the chinese ambassador but he said a lot more than shut up been searching all over the net wonder where the radio station found it :x

loooooool

Way to go China!

Quote:

[size=18]US airport in 'explosives' alert[/size]

An airport terminal in Huntington, West Virginia has been evacuated after explosives tests on two containers in a woman's luggage came up positive.

The containers were seen in the woman's hand luggage and subjected to swab tests and sniffer dog examinations, both of which gave positive results.

Officials say the woman is of Pakistani origin and was travelling on a one-way ticket to Charlotte, North Carolina.

She has been detained and is now being questioned by FBI officials.

[b]'Highly sensitive'[/b]

According to the woman's travel documents she is from Jackson, Michigan and was born in 1978.

Chris Yates from Jane's Aviation told the BBC that both the swab and sniffer dog tests were extremely sensitive.

The likelihood that a container that had not come into contact with explosives would come up positive on both tests was extremely low, he said.

The containers have been moved to a remote area by robot for further tests, Tri-State Airport director Larry Salyers said.

About 100 passengers have been affected by the evacuation, airport officials say.

Bob Aaron from local TV station WCHS-TV is at the scene, and he told the BBC that security at the small regional airport is not very sophisticated, relying on a few security screeners.

The incident comes a week after UK intelligence officers say they foiled a plot to blow up planes using liquid explosives.

This is the second security alert at US airports in as many days.

On Wednesday a United Airlines passenger jet flying from London to Washington was diverted and escorted to Boston after an on-board disturbance.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5261456.stm]BBC News[/url]

Quote:

[color=green][size=18][b]Terror police find 'martyr tapes'[/b][/size]

Police investigating an alleged plot to bring down airliners have found several martyrdom videos in the course of their searches, the BBC has learned.

An unofficial police source said the recordings - discovered on laptop computers - appear to have been made by some of the suspects being questioned.

Scotland Yard has refused to comment on what officers are finding.

Police are continuing to search woodland at High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire and 14 addresses.

The Metropolitan Police, which is leading the inquiry, has said it has already completed searches of 36 business and residential sites.

A total of 20 vehicles have also been searched.

'Routine' help

Meanwhile, it has emerged that every police force in the UK is now involved in the investigation.

The 43 forces in England and Wales, eight in Scotland and the Police Service of Northern Ireland have sent, or are sending, officers to assist.

Hundreds are said to be involved with further officers on patrol at airports.

A spokeswoman for the Association of Chief Police Officers said: "All forces across the UK are providing officers to help with the operation by the Metropolitan Police."

The alert began on 10 August after raids in London, High Wycombe and Birmingham.

A district judge has granted anti-terror officers an extra seven days to question 21 of the 23 people being held, and an extra five days to question two.

Under the 2006 Terrorism Act the maximum period someone suspected of terrorist activity can be held without charge is 28 days, subject to regular court approval.

It is believed up to 17 people are being held in Pakistan over the alleged plot - with two British nationals of Pakistani descent among them.

Scotland Yard officers have also flown to Pakistan to liaise with the authorities there over the questioning of Rashid Rauf, the only man who has so far been named by Pakistani authorities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5265182.stm
[/color]

I thought i wud just give this thread a bump.

Have these guys actually been convicted of this alleged threat?? [which IMO does not appear to exist and is the perfect distraction from the Lebonon crisis.]

The NEWS have COMPLETELY forgotton about these guys,

but me is still having nightmares from alleged threats, nearly peed ma self, twas dat bloody scared...

How can anybody so foolishly forget that there could have been "mass murder on an unimaginable scale"???!!! so bloody quickly as well!!

I is gonna scream like a girl if the whole thing was a hoax! :evil:

"TEX" wrote:

I is gonna scream like a girl if the whole thing was a hoax! :evil:

dude i is dead serios!

i is gonna scream like charlott church!

its gonna be so loud its gonna break the windows and the mirror!....

and the computer screen.... :?

charlott church :shock: shes scawwy

if this really is a hoax den i is gonna be scarier den charlott church!

do u think dat it was a hoax?

:?

wow scarrier than charlott church..... its a hoax

"Snoopy" wrote:

its a hoax

u really think so?

yah but u dont need to cry

wait until u hear me scream!! :evil: its gonna be so bloody loud ur ear drums will pop :x , even tho u live far, far, far away from me!! :twisted:

:shock: wow that loud

at least u got the far far far away bit right

yeah i am in Mars

lol n im DEFINTLY FAR FAR AWAY

even at the time they were calling it `the alleged threat`

now this `alleged threat` has completly disapeared.... like it never happened....

i wonder what the others will say on this...

i decided to Quote this post:

"Beast" wrote:

For once I don't have access to much news. I've only got Geo and CNN here and I've read a bit of the BBC News site.

But from what I gather I doubt that there was any real threat or possibility of an attack.

This is being headlined by both Geo and CNN as the foiling of a genuine plot. However in the actual reporting and statements by police and politicians there are caveats and room for doubt.

A police spokesman said 'We are [i]confident[/i] that we have disrupted a plan by terrorists to cause untold death and destruction'. John Reid said something like 'we [i]believe[/i] we have uncovered a plot'. They don't say that they know for [i]certain[/i] or that anyone has been caught red-handed. The language they use is non-commital. If and when we discover that there was no plot or that the evidence was based merely on a conversation between two or more people the politicians and the security spokespeople will say things like 'we beleived at the time...', 'the intelligence pointed to...', etc.

Apparently 25 people were arrested in dawn raids and their homes are being searched - 4 people have been released. But from what I gather they were arrested at their homes - no-one was arrested at an airport, or arrested whilst trying to purchase explosives, or arrested in possession of explosive materials. Whether explosives material is discovered at the homes of these people that in itself does not mean that it was intended for use in a terrorist attack. None of this points to any [i]imminent[/i] threat.

This, for one thing, takes the focus off Lebanon and Israeli war crimes. CNN is focusing solely on this 'heightened security' story. When the signal comes back I suspect Lebanon will have make do with the ticker at bottom of the screen.

This also takes the pressure off Blair. Not only is Lebanon not the main news story, but now when he is asked about why he lets Israel get away with anything, he can say 'well, you know, what I say to you is this: we are fighing an unprecedented global threat. You only have to look at the recent plot to blow up numerous aeroplanes to see that this threat is real and on our doorstep. The threat of Islamic terror is very real. Israel is fighting that very same threat. In this new global war for liberty and freedom there are many fronts. Etc, etc.

In the unlikely case that any charges are brought they will have to be brought against at least 10 people. Apparently 10 planes were being targeted. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, or 9 people can't blow themselves up on 10 planes no matter how much they plot.

They say the arrests follow a month-long investigation. The Forest Gate brothers were investigated for 1 month (or was it 2?) before being arrested.

One last thing, these people were arrested at dawn. If and when they are realeased, the main group will be released late in the evening. Dawn raids allow the 'unnamed senior security sources' enough time to brief press reporters about the full 'horror' and 'destruction' which was going to be committed by 'sick' and 'evil' terrorists. Brace yourselves for alarmist headlines in tomorrow's newspapers. Releasing the final batch of suspects late in the evening gives only about 2 hours to breif the press about how no evidence was uncovered and no terrorism-related charges have been brought. Given that newspapers have to be written up and finalised by 11.00pm this will result in a short measured story on the inside pages - unless the paper is running a campaign against Sir Ian Blair.

Look out for smears and little white lies about the suspects in the coming days. And be sure to watch out for that pesky 'unnamed senior security source'.

Can someone do me favour? Got to sky.com/news tomorrow morning and click on the 'UK papers' link. Try to save some of the frontpages and post them on the forum. (No need to post any tabloids which carry warnings of death along with pics of scantily-clad women). We can compare the frontapages to those which come out the day after the suspects are released.

Beautiful post :o

This calls for another article :idea:

"yashmaki" wrote:

a few ppl i know are also sceptical. They said it's far too convenient, they're losing the war on terror. public support is generally low and now this occurs-PR stunt according to these individuals to increase fear and gain support. Sick PR stunt if it ever was one.

Well i'm not so sure about conspiracy theories and don't believe the above, but i can understand their views.

I'd follow all precautions if i was at the airport. No newspapers allowed either? Some safety measures seem strange but i suppose there's a purpose?

I thought i would also quote this beautiful post by Yash

how are things at the airport?

any body travelled recently?

any cancelled flights recently?

Quote:

[b]Air passengers 'could be tagged'[/b]

Electronically tagging passengers at airports could help the fight against terrorism, scientists have said.

The prototype technology is to be tested at an airport in Hungary, and could, if successful, become a reality "in two years".

The work is being carried out at a new research centre, based at University College London, set up to find technological solutions to crime.

Other projects include scanners for explosives and dirty bomb radiation.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6044310.stm[/url]

"TEX" wrote:

The NEWS have COMPLETELY forgotton about these guys,

What about the 4 guys they caught who tried to do a copycat 7/7 but their bombs failed to detonate and they did a runner? I dont remember hearing anything about them either.