Straw asks Muslim women for veil rethink

You —

[quote][size=18]Straw asks women for veil rethink[/size]

[b]Muslim women in the UK who wear full veils make "better, positive relations" between communities "more difficult", Commons leader Jack Straw has said.[/b]

Concealing a face was "a visible statement of separation and of difference", the Blackburn MP wrote in the Lancashire Evening Telegraph.

He said he now asks women who have meetings with him to remove their veils so they can truly talk "face-to-face".

"My concerns could be misplaced, but I think there is an issue here," he said.

The MP for Blackburn - where Muslims make up about a quarter of the population - said: "The value of a meeting, as opposed to a letter or phone call, is that you can - almost literally - see what the other person means, and not just hear what they say."

Mr Straw later told BBC Radio Lancashire that this was "an issue that needs to be discussed because in our society, we are able to relate, particularly to strangers, by being able to read their faces, and if you can't read people's faces, that does provide some separation".

He said he understood why some women wanted to be covered, citing a recent meeting with a constituent who "said she felt more comfortable when she was outside wearing the veil and she was less troubled by people".

"What I'm saying on the other side is, would those people who do wear the veil think about the implications for community relations," he said.

[b]'Selective discrimination'[/b]

Mr Straw was home secretary from 1997 to 2001, and then foreign secretary until 2005, a period which included the build-up to, and invasion of Iraq.

He said he always made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to remove their veil - and his constituents had so far always agreed when he had asked.

Mr Straw also said he defended the right for women to wear headscarfs - which, he said, was the issue in France which had led to recent controversy.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission claimed his request would lead to "selective" discrimination.

"It is astonishing that someone as experienced and senior as Jack Straw does not realise that the job of an elected representative is to represent the interests of the constituency, not to selectively discriminate on the basis of religion," said Massoud Shadjareh.

But Dr Daud Abdullah of the Muslim Council of Britain said it was up to individual Muslim women whether to wear the veil, adding he understodd the matter "does cause some discomfort to non-Muslim".

"Even within the Muslim community the scholars have different views on this.

"Our view is that if it is going to cause discomfort and that can be avoided then it can be done. The veil over the hair is obligatory."

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5410472.stm]BBC News[/url][/quote]

Forum

Imaani — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 18:51

[quote="stmark"]
You've been brainwashed by the media. The kkk is a nice peaceful group, you just have to get to know them. They realy are a religion of peace. :roll:
You would feel insecure around them but if they didn't have that costume on you weouldn't feel insecure, same with the veil if they don't wear it the brits aren't likely to feel insecure. Tolerance has limits and there's a limit to what will be tolerated.[/quote]

No, your sarcasm isn't amusing.

You HAVE been brainwashed by the media. Most Muslims are nice and peaceful, you just need to give them a chance. Islam really is a religion of peace.

If you're tired of hearing us saying it, why not open a book, ie the Quran and read it. You never know, you might learn something.

stmark — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 19:03

[quote="Imaani"][quote="stmark"]I'm from america and I don't know how the british mind thinks but I imagine if they think their security is threatened your religion will become irrelevant.
The lady looks similar to a kkk member when she dresses like that. I'm sorry for the comparison but they do. Why can't they wear regular slacks or jeans and a long sleaved blouse? They are still muslims and it shouldn't
take away from their muslimness.[/quote]

Exactly, you don't live in this country so how can you ask the above question.

Let me tell you, Muslim girls here in the UK [i]do[/i] wear jeans with long sleeved blouses and dresses.

You are a perfect example of how dangerous the media can be. You dont live here, but you have made assumptions about Muslims in the UK on the basis of a few news reports. You do not need me to tell you to not believe everything you read.

How many Muslim girls, say out of a 100, do you think wear the niqab in the UK?

I would also like to ask you, if you dont mind, what your views are on the Amish community? And what are your views on the recent school shooting?[/quote]Actually I base my assumptions on what I see other Brits post on other forums, the media doesn't have that much to do with it. I would think relatively few maybe 10 or 20 but it's not about how many wear it but that they wear it all the time. I would think that you can wear it at religious functions if you want but they want to be able to see your faces because they don't know who's under there. It's probably not a criminal, but it could be in fact that has happened.
I don't know much about the Amish but whoever did the shooting should be caught and tried.

Beast — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 19:42

[quote="stmark"][quote="Beast"][quote="stmark"]Ok some muslim cab drivers refuse to give blind men with dogs or people carrying alchohol a ride... [/quote]

They must all be like that!

:shock:[/quote]I don't think many are like but that co was about 3/4 muslims and one blind person was stranded because the driver wouldn't pick her up and about 500 blind people filed descrimination complaints against that company.[/quote]

Why did we start talking about Muslim cab firms? What does that have to do with the topic in hand?

[quote="stmark"]The government has been catering to muslims to the point of discriminating against it's own people...[/quote]

Can we have some examples please?

[quote="stmark"]I don't know what's going to happen but something will and I think there will be more deportations of islamic radicals.[/quote]

How would deporting "Islamic" radicals help with the "Dhimmitude" issue?

[quote="stmark"]You would feel insecure around them but if they didn't have that costume on you weouldn't feel insecure, same with the veil if they don't wear it the brits aren't likely to feel insecure. Tolerance has limits and there's a limit to what will be tolerated.[/quote]

The KKK's dress is symbolic of its outright and proven racist and violent views. A person wearing this would most definately be a racist. You would therefore rightly feel uncomfortable in the precense of someone wearing a KKK hood and gown. However, if someone was not wearing a KKK hood but expressed racist views you would also rightly feel uncomfortable.

A niqaab is not symbolic of any racist or violent views - any such impression is a misconception on the part of the beholder. To asumme that someone wearing niqaab has a particular worldview which is racist or violent is wrong. To feel uncomfortable in the presence of a niqaabi for the same reasons that you would feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone wearing a KKK hood is unreasonable.

Therefore comparing KKK hoods to a niqaab is wholly innappropriate.

stmark — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 20:50

[quote="TEX"][quote="stmark"][quote="TEX"]Mark u have been reading too many conspiracy theories about muslims trying to control the world,

u poor thing

they is phycologically damaging,

keep away from them bro....[/quote]It's in the koran.[/quote]

yeah right :roll:

provide the verse for me then[/quote]I don't know but that's what a lot of islamic clerics teach.

yashmaki — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 21:06

St Mark if you want to be taken seriously come forward with some intelligent debate rather than spin and generalisations from the media. Also if you want a two way conversation be a bit more respectful, no ones asking you to accept our beliefs but if we're respecting you on these forums the least you can do is reciprocate, otherwise you may aswell speak to yourself.

What's this about a muslim cabby refusing to drive blind ppl and drunks? I know it's a real story because i heard about it a few weeks ago on the radio. However i also recall there were many other cabbies the media spoke to (muslim btw) who were very happy to have blind ppl enter their cabs with guide dogs. As for drunkards any cabby muslim or not would be out of business if they refused to drive home drunkards, because lets face it this country is full of them every evening. So if you're not regurgitating a lie what are you doing exactly? Coz of the ignorance of one muslim cabby you're making a sweeping statement that they're all prejudiced against disabled ppl? You sure you're not prejudiced against muslims?

stmark — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 21:40

[quote="TEX"]i know ur a bit stupid (and america is officaly the fattest, dum.best and most hated nation in the world- lol u certianly fufill 2 of the 3 catogries, because i cant see u so i cant decide on the fat part lol, but wid all da extra large coke and burgers u prolly fufill that, unless u live on rabbit food that is)

But there is a REASON we are offended that u r comparing it to the KKK. The tiny minority of women that where it where it because of the reason i have mentioned. The reason the KKK wore the white ghost costumes was to define who they were and the reason it was white was to indicate that white skined ppl r superior, veiled women dont where veil for that...[/quote]I thought they wore it to scare the blacks on their terror raids during the 1800s and took it off after the raid.

Imaani — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 21:54

[quote="stmark"]Actually I base my assumptions on what I see other Brits post on other forums, the media doesn't have that much to do with it. I would think relatively few maybe 10 or 20 but it's not about how many wear it but that they wear it all the time. I would think that you can wear it at religious functions if you want but they want to be able to see your faces because they don't know who's under there. It's probably not a criminal, but it could be in fact that has happened.
I don't know much about the Amish but whoever did the shooting should be caught and tried.[/quote]

Your post screams ignorance.

You state your source almost proudly, as though you think it's reliable. Excuse me, but that's kind of funny.

So you think 10 - 20% of Muslim women in the UK wear the niqab.

You are way out.

I think it extremely arrogant and ignorant that you, as an American, don't know much about the Amish community, especially given the recent tragedy. I think you should pay more attention to your own country, and leave the UK to us.

Just for your information, the guy who did the shooting is dead.

stmark — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 21:56

[quote="TEX"][quote="stmark"]You've been brainwashed by the media. The kkk is a nice peaceful group, you just have to get to know them. They realy are a religion of peace. :roll:
[/quote]

u have quite clearly made ur up mind about muslims

spewing ur hate on a muslim forum achieves nothing

so do one will ya!

go back to studying the stories in the bible...

bye![/quote]I just don't see why you make such a big deal out of everything. You sure don't do islam anygood and you are digging your own grave..

stmark — Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 23:49

[quote="Beast"][quote="stmark"][quote="Beast"][quote="stmark"]Ok some muslim cab drivers refuse to give blind men with dogs or people carrying alchohol a ride... [/quote]

They must all be like that!

:shock:[/quote]I don't think many are like but that co was about 3/4 muslims and one blind person was stranded because the driver wouldn't pick her up and about 500 blind people filed descrimination complaints against that company.[/quote]

Why did we start talking about Muslim cab firms? What does that have to do with the topic in hand?

[quote="stmark"]The government has been catering to muslims to the point of discriminating against it's own people...[/quote]

Can we have some examples please?

[quote="stmark"]I don't know what's going to happen but something will and I think there will be more deportations of islamic radicals.[/quote]

How would deporting "Islamic" radicals help with the "Dhimmitude" issue?

[quote="stmark"]You would feel insecure around them but if they didn't have that costume on you weouldn't feel insecure, same with the veil if they don't wear it the brits aren't likely to feel insecure. Tolerance has limits and there's a limit to what will be tolerated.[/quote]

The KKK's dress is symbolic of its outright and proven racist and violent views. A person wearing this would most definately be a racist. You would therefore rightly feel uncomfortable in the precense of someone wearing a KKK hood and gown. However, if someone was not wearing a KKK hood but expressed racist views you would also rightly feel uncomfortable.

A niqaab is not symbolic of any racist or violent views - any such impression is a misconception on the part of the beholder. To asumme that someone wearing niqaab has a particular worldview which is racist or violent is wrong. To feel uncomfortable in the presence of a niqaabi for the same reasons that you would feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone wearing a KKK hood is unreasonable.

Therefore comparing KKK hoods to a niqaab is wholly innappropriate.[/quote]Theese articles deal with ethnic minorities more than with just muslims.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1706046/posts
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=533
I mentioned cab drivers because tex asked me to use a differant example than my god told me to kill muslims in replying to his post about person x whos god told her to go naked. If that did happen about the cab drivers I bthink it would be catering to m,uslims at the expense of the blind people.

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 00:02

[quote="yashmaki"]St Mark if you want to be taken seriously come forward with some intelligent debate rather than spin and generalisations from the media. Also if you want a two way conversation be a bit more respectful, no ones asking you to accept our beliefs but if we're respecting you on these forums the least you can do is reciprocate, otherwise you may aswell speak to yourself.

What's this about a muslim cabby refusing to drive blind ppl and drunks? I know it's a real story because i heard about it a few weeks ago on the radio. However i also recall there were many other cabbies the media spoke to (muslim btw) who were very happy to have blind ppl enter their cabs with guide dogs. As for drunkards any cabby muslim or not would be out of business if they refused to drive home drunkards, because lets face it this country is full of them every evening. So if you're not regurgitating a lie what are you doing exactly? Coz of the ignorance of one muslim cabby you're making a sweeping statement that they're all prejudiced against disabled ppl? You sure you're not prejudiced against muslims?[/quote]Did I say all muslims were that way? I specifically said about 3/4 of a cab co was muslim and they didn't want to pick up blind people with dogs or people carying alchohol. I wasn't generalizing.

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 00:17

[quote="Imaani"][quote="stmark"]Actually I base my assumptions on what I see other Brits post on other forums, the media doesn't have that much to do with it. I would think relatively few maybe 10 or 20 but it's not about how many wear it but that they wear it all the time. I would think that you can wear it at religious functions if you want but they want to be able to see your faces because they don't know who's under there. It's probably not a criminal, but it could be in fact that has happened.
I don't know much about the Amish but whoever did the shooting should be caught and tried.[/quote]

Your post screams ignorance.

You state your source almost proudly, as though you think it's reliable. Excuse me, but that's kind of funny.

So you think 10 - 20% of Muslim women in the UK wear the niqab.

You are way out.

I think it extremely arrogant and ignorant that you, as an American, don't know much about the Amish community, especially given the recent tragedy. I think you should pay more attention to your own country, and leave the UK to us.

Just for your information, the guy who did the shooting is dead.[/quote]I have no idea how many do, you asked me to tell you what I thought and I just took a wild guess.

Beast — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 08:40

[quote="stmark"]Theese articles deal with ethnic minorities more than with just muslims.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1706046/posts
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=533[/quote]

None of these articles deal with "Dhimmitude". They are about immigrants and ethnic minorities.

The story about the guy dressing in a "burqa" is not proven nor is it an example of any policy or rule initiated either by gov or by religious authorities.

Do you have any examples of "Dhimmitude"?

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 17:23

[quote="Beast"][quote="stmark"]Theese articles deal with ethnic minorities more than with just muslims.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1706046/posts
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=533[/quote]

None of these articles deal with "Dhimmitude". They are about immigrants and ethnic minorities.

The story about the guy dressing in a "burqa" is not proven nor is it an example of any policy or rule initiated either by gov or by religious authorities.

Do you have any examples of "Dhimmitude"?[/quote] The religious hatred law was passed and now people are scared to critisize islam but it should be critisized as should every other faith.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1323124/posts
They rebuilt some toilets in a jail to face away from mecca.
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/brits-turn-jail-toilets-away-fro…
I just think they are too politically correct for their own good and they descriminate against other minoroties as well as the native population.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_33_16/ai_65091753

Beast — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 19:56

[quote="stmark"][quote="Beast"][quote="stmark"]Theese articles deal with ethnic minorities more than with just muslims.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1706046/posts
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2395178,00.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=533[/quote]

None of these articles deal with "Dhimmitude". They are about immigrants and ethnic minorities.

The story about the guy dressing in a "burqa" is not proven nor is it an example of any policy or rule initiated either by gov or by religious authorities.

Do you have any examples of "Dhimmitude"?[/quote] The religious hatred law was passed and now people are scared to critisize islam but it should be critisized as should every other faith.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1323124/posts
They rebuilt some toilets in a jail to face away from mecca.
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/brits-turn-jail-toilets-away-fro…
I just think they are too politically correct for their own good and they descriminate against other minoroties as well as the native population.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_33_16/ai_65091753[/q…]

I'm sorry, I still don't see any examples of "Dhimmitude".

Some toilets had to be rebuilt. Hardly a supresion of Western laws and values.

The gov is trying to encourage museums to cater for [u]minority groups[/u]. This is not an "Islamic" law they are trying to impose or promote.

The religious hatred law is just that - a [u]religious[/u] hatred law. It applies to all religions. How many people have been prosecuted under this law so far?

You are using the facts to fit your preconcived ideas. You're clutching at straws - and no doubt are all the other people who complain about "Dhimmitude".

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 19:58

[quote="Noor...*"][color=indigo]We should be able to wear what we like, when we like. I dont see why the way we dress affects others. Ther our clothes and on our bodies, not thers.

Has this straw guy ever actually spoken to a niqaabi?[/color][/quote]My mother used to tell me no man is an island. Every thing you do affects others. When in public every thing you say or do will have some kind of affect on others.

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 20:19

[quote="Admin"][quote="TEX"][quote="Mr Admin"][b]We[/b] do not mind if women wear next to nothing, [/quote]

Im sorry but who's `we`?[/quote]

'We' as in british society as a whole.

Or just me.[/quote]It would make it a lot easier to fit in if you didn't wear that but that's up to you. It is not even islamic to wear the veil, but then I guess it depends on what sect you belong to. http://www.submission.org/dress.html
Quran is very clear about the dress code for the believers. Innovations and fabrication intorduced Hijab (veil) to Islam (submission.) Hijab (veil) is a traditional, not religious head cover that dates back to ancient civilizations, and is not supported or advocated by the Quran.

You — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 20:33

All I am saying is that people should have the choice to wear it.

My point is not based on religion, religious prerogative, but simple civil rights.

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 21:28

[quote="Admin"]All I am saying is that people should have the choice to wear it.

My point is not based on religion, religious prerogative, but simple civil rights.[/quote]Should you have the right to go around scaring their kids? The adults might just think it's creepy but the children get scared and traumatized. This is a post from one of the forums I visit.
The teacher refusing to remove veil? What a hipocrocy! Children need to see the whole person to understand body languages and expressions. Burkha clad teachers are unfit to teach the children.

My daughter was 6 years old. In a nearby shopping centre, she came across for the first time, a veiled burkha clad muslimmah.(I think it was a lady inside. I am not so sure though. The covering was black in colour.)

My daughter actually got scared. She was on her own in the toy section, and I was closeby, keeping an eye contact with her every often. On seeing this muslimmah, she got scared and came running back to me. She did nt leave my side for the rest of the shopping.

These veiled, burkha clad muslimmahs are actually putting our children under stress and trauma. Its bad enough in a shopping centre, but, to face it in class room? Terrible. And, the children will not learn much either.

TEX — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 21:29

[quote="stmark"][quote="TEX"]Mark u have been reading too many conspiracy theories about muslims trying to control the world,

u poor thing

they is phycologically damaging,

keep away from them bro....[/quote]It's in the koran.[/quote]

twice i quoted the `there shall be no compulsion in religion` verse, and u even admitted u knew it was there, so why lie??

TEX — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 21:31

[quote="stmark"]
Should you have the right to go around scaring their kids? The adults might just think it's creepy but the children get scared and traumatized. This is a post from one of the forums I visit.
The teacher refusing to remove veil? What a hipocrocy! Children need to see the whole person to understand body languages and expressions. Burkha clad teachers are unfit to teach the children.

My daughter was 6 years old. In a nearby shopping centre, she came across for the first time, a veiled burkha clad muslimmah.(I think it was a lady inside. I am not so sure though. The covering was black in colour.)

My daughter actually got scared. She was on her own in the toy section, and I was closeby, keeping an eye contact with her every often. On seeing this muslimmah, she got scared and came running back to me. She did nt leave my side for the rest of the shopping.

These veiled, burkha clad muslimmahs are actually putting our children under stress and trauma. Its bad enough in a shopping centre, but, to face it in class room? Terrible. And, the children will not learn much either.[/quote]

this post is hilarious 😂

`traumatised` eh? :roll: :roll:

stmark — Fri, 13 Oct 2006 - 22:31

[quote="TEX"][quote="stmark"][quote="TEX"]Mark u have been reading too many conspiracy theories about muslims trying to control the world,

u poor thing

they is phycologically damaging,

keep away from them bro....[/quote]It's in the koran.[/quote]

twice i quoted the `there shall be no compulsion in religion` verse, and u even admitted u knew it was there, so why lie??[/quote]Depending on which scholor you listen to it might have been abrogated.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Sene/morethanreligion.html
While the Qur’an does say, "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256), many Qur’anic scholars insist that, in its context, this verse has nothing to do with not forcing non-Muslims to submit to the rule of Islam. Many also teach that this "no compulsion" verse was abrogated (2:106) and replaced by the later and more numerous verses that say things like: "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them." (9:73) "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme." (8:39) "Fight against such of those ... who ... do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29) In Muhammad’s day, conquered Jews and Christians who did not convert to Islam were allowed to live, provided they paid jizya, a "protection" tax

Seraphim — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 12:54

Silly silly little man.

You're quoting the holy Quran totally outta context and i will slap you're monkey a.s.s down for doing that: Yes in the Quran it says 'where ever you find the non-believers kill them' (Surah Al'Tawbah Ch9 verse 5) but if you take a look at the verses before that it will explain why? And before you mis-quote i'll tell you it will go alittle something like this:

The first few verses of surah Al'Tawbah speaks of a peace treaty between the muslims and the mushriqs of Macca which was broken by the mushriks, so Allah (swt) the most just gives an ultimatum to the enemies: 'You put things straight within 4 months time otherwise there will be a declaration of war' so to the muslims in the battlefield where-ever you find the kafirs you kill them."

Therefore this part of the Quran is speaking inregards to the battlefield when the muslims are fighting for truth and justice against false-hood. So basicly it means when the enemy comes dont be afriad kill them. Just as any army general would say 'kill the enemy'.

But thats not all... no no no... verse 6 goes a little something like this: 'If the mushriq want asylum, DONT just let them go, escort them to a secure place so they may hear the word of the Almighty.' But nowadays any army general would either say kill them all or let them go but none would say 'escort them to security'... (with the exception of the prophet(pbuh) and Saladin Ayubi) but THAT is what the Quran says.

TEX — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 13:03

[quote]Depending on which scholor you listen to it might have been abrogated.[/quote]

18/27 And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. [color=red]There is none who can abrogate His words[/color], [color=blue]and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.[/color]

If u take `refuge` besides that words of Allah, it is blatent shirk (idolatry), none can abrogate the word of Allah, and if they do they are commiting a grave sin, and anybody that listons to them is committing shirk, because these words are from `other then allah`, to claim mans law is divine law is blatent shirk, and i agree with u, it is horryfying why so-called Islamic scholers think that they can abrogate the word of allah, and whats even worse is that the masses seem to `let them off` and `believe what they say`. However there are many intellegent muslims that actually read the quran and put god's words before mans word, so dont assume they are all like that.

[quote]http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Sene/morethanreligion.html[/quote]

beware of sites like those

[quote]While the Qur’an does say, "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256), many Qur’anic scholars insist that, in its context, this verse has nothing to do with not forcing non-Muslims to submit to the rule of Islam. Many also teach that this "no compulsion" verse was abrogated (2:106) and replaced by the later and more numerous verses that say things like: [/quote]

78/37 the Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all between, (allah) Most Gracious: [b]No one can abrogate His decisions.[/b]

allah is not fickle, he is not a human, he's not gonna confuse us by saying one thing then saying another.... anybody who thinks he duz is an idiot,,,

[quote]"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them." (9:73) "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme." (8:39) "Fight against such of those ... who ... do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29) In Muhammad’s day, conquered Jews and Christians who did not convert to Islam were allowed to live, provided they paid jizya, a "protection" tax[/quote]

lets discuss those verses in context:

9:73 [color=red]O Prophet ![/color] strive hard against the disbelievers and the Hypocrites. [color=blue]And be firm against them.[/color] Their abode is Hell, and evil destination it is.

this verse is talking about Muhummad (s) - God is [u]directly[/u] talking to him. The pagan Arabs at that time were incredibly cruel towards Muhammad and his companions, if u study the ahadith u will see that they inflicted him and his companions with the worse kind of torture imaginable, some of it is so bad it makes me sick just thinking about it :x :x . studying the ahadith u will see that muhammad was `too soft` on them and god told him to be `firm on them`, they tried to stop muhammad preaching islam and tried to stop people from becoming muslims so God told him `to strive hard against them`.

This verse is not even applicable today, since the verse tells us who it was for right of the beginning. Any scholer tells u that is is applicable today is not worthy of ANY respect.

8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for [u]oppression are worse than murder;[/u] but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

remember that verse is only talking about the oppresors.

9:29 Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favor and acknowledge their subjection.

I need help on that verse.

But any religon that is not morel, should be tolerated, just the inhumane doctarines should not be tolerated.

I is gonna ask ma imam on dat verse, i'll let u know later

You — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 16:21

Can we stay on topic please.

And if you want to discuss the verses regarding war, start a new topic. One thing I would reccomend is that you read the vferses around the one people love to misquote.

The order of the verses goes what to do before hand... but if war starts kill them unless they are women, children, noncombatants, ask for aylum, give up, become muslim yadda yadda yadda.

Now if you only quote the few words before the 'unless' section, you are either looking for issues to argue for the sake of it, with no real urge to understand or have not studied anything about the sibject at all.

TEX — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 16:58

sorry admin i didn't intend to go off-topic.

Mark create another thread please.

So far it just looks like he's here to spew his hate on the forum.... :roll:

Beast — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 17:16

[quote="TEX"]So far it just looks like he's here to spew his hate on the forum.... :roll:[/quote]

I'm sure he doesn't hate. He just needs to hear other sides of the argument.

TEX — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 17:42

[quote="Beast"][quote="TEX"]So far it just looks like he's here to spew his hate on the forum.... :roll:[/quote]

I'm sure he doesn't hate. He just needs to hear other sides of the argument.[/quote]

LOL

u stopped the silent treatment! 😃

cheers beasty u have made my day 😃

xXx

stmark — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 - 19:21

[quote="TEX"][quote="stmark"]
Should you have the right to go around scaring their kids? The adults might just think it's creepy but the children get scared and traumatized. This is a post from one of the forums I visit.
The teacher refusing to remove veil? What a hipocrocy! Children need to see the whole person to understand body languages and expressions. Burkha clad teachers are unfit to teach the children.

My daughter was 6 years old. In a nearby shopping centre, she came across for the first time, a veiled burkha clad muslimmah.(I think it was a lady inside. I am not so sure though. The covering was black in colour.)

My daughter actually got scared. She was on her own in the toy section, and I was closeby, keeping an eye contact with her every often. On seeing this muslimmah, she got scared and came running back to me. She did nt leave my side for the rest of the shopping.

These veiled, burkha clad muslimmahs are actually putting our children under stress and trauma. Its bad enough in a shopping centre, but, to face it in class room? Terrible. And, the children will not learn much either.[/quote]

this post is hilarious 😂

`traumatised` eh? :roll: :roll:[/quote]That's what she said. I don't think it damaged her for the rest of her life but the six year old kid probably was scared and maybe had nightmares about it.