Wanton destruction of Palestine and Lebanon

You —

Salaam

I was not gonna start this topic.

Just too erm... I got no words to say. Nothing I can do.#

Just hopeless.

Destroying basic infrastructure is collective punishment. Its a breach of basic human rights. Blowing up power stations, water treatment facilities, bridges does not release a single prisoner.

Flying Jets through Syria as a 'gesture' to say you can't, shouldn't, wouldn't do anything is just gross.

And all this makes people angry.

Not the most fluent post ever. Not thinking straight enough to be. I am not angry. Just no idea what to feel. Or think. Or write.

(and I ruin a good topic by making it all me, me, me.)

[b]EDIT: Title updated ------------- Modnster [/b]

Forum

The Great 100 — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 20:22

[quote="salaf"][quote="The Great 100"] Hamas took hostages. [/quote]

I assume you meant "Hezbollah took hostages".[/quote]

No. I take it you have forgotten, what with Hizbullah getting involved.

[quote="salaf"][quote="The Great 100"]For this they will not receive any reward. [/quote]

Really?

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/idfisraelfuneral10052.html[/quote]

Really. If they insist on holding out by your logic while Israel decimates their positions more fool them.

Medarris — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 20:42

The Great 100 I mentioned "something like" in regards to the % that I gave. Your statistics may well be more accurate.

But my point was that Hizbullah are from the people of Lebanon and they are a grassroots organisation. To try and cut them off from the people or the land and to make them appear as foreign and alien to the country is a great injustice to the democracy and to the Lebanese.

I have to say Nasrallah is the impressive - and thats saying a lot seeing as he is shi'a. The guy has military and political acumen (think thats the right word :? )

Dave — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 22:45

[quote="latifah"]Current death tolls:

Lebanese: 200

Israeli: 24

So who are the terrorists?[/quote]

Who isn't?

Israel for going on a killing spree just because it can?
Hizbollah for rocketing Haifa?
Or the world for watching intently and keeping death tolls like a soccer score while doing [i]nothing[/i].

Did anyone catch the news today? Kofi and Blair are finally talking about putting a UN force together, something that we needed 2 weeks ago.

At this rate they might even be deployed before Lebanon is rubble.

Medarris — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 23:26

I recently read somewhere that the Jews had not left Shebaa Farms and Golan Heights when they withdrew from Lebanon a few years back. If this is true then that means they are still occupying a portion of Lebanese and in Syrian territory so the crossborder incursion of Hizbullah fighters is nothing but the normal act of a standard war.

Any1 got info on this?

You — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 23:43

Those are still occupied. But they are occupied syrian territory. (however Lebanon disagrees about the shebaa farms.)

Everyone is guilty here.

I can play devils advocate, but lets just be honest about it. Noone is standing out in some bright light as innocent.

Apart from the people killed.

Medarris — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 23:48

I dont like Hizbullah particularly and the reason for that is that they are Rawaafidh but on an objective level I have to say that they appear to be in the right here.

Their incursion was fully justified in light of the Israeli occupation in Shebaa Farms.

And I mentioned before and say again that Hasan Nasrallah is a very clever man. I cant quite make myself become his fan but certainly - grudgingly - he has some respect/admiration from me on a purely objective level.

Dave — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 - 23:50

Tenancy really isn't a big deal in those areas, it's the authority that matters. Many of those Jewish farms have been there since the Ottoman Era and the only thing that's changed is who they pay their taxes to from year to year. While to be sure there are probably settlers from when Israel controlled the territory de jure and de facto, they are still there and simply pay their dues to Syria or Lebanon, one would assume since it is sovereign territory that neither country desires them to leave all that badly.

Beast — Tue, 18 Jul 2006 - 22:16

Damn those pesky Iranians...

Iran also tricked Israel into detaining Palestinian cabinet ministers and MPs, knocking out Gaza's power station, bombing families on a beach, bombing bridges, bombing all over Lebanon including villages and apartment blocks, bombing TV stations, bombing a refugee convoy, killing 8 Canadians, killing over 230 Lebanese, knocking out a Lebanese power station, and other dastardly things which Israel wouldn't normaly do.

But the Iranians couldn't have pulled off such a con-trick on their own. They had help from those sly Syrians.

*DUST* — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 02:54

[quote="Beast"][quote="(*_Shazan"]May Allah curse the Israelites[/quote]

Using the term "Israelites" in such a context is anti-Semitic.

Keep it to the IDF or Israeli gov. This way you wont be being anti-Semitic but criticising the actions of the Israeli gov and IDF.[/quote]
He's unashamedly anti-semitic in case you havent noticed. is that why you were banned on MPAC and other forums shazan?

Anonymous (not verified) — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 06:47

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="Beast"][quote="(*_Shazan"]May Allah curse the Israelites[/quote]

Using the term "Israelites" in such a context is anti-Semitic.

Keep it to the IDF or Israeli gov. This way you wont be being anti-Semitic but criticising the actions of the Israeli gov and IDF.[/quote]
He's unashamedly anti-semitic in case you havent noticed. is that why you were banned on MPAC and other forums shazan?[/quote]

And the Zionist Israelis adhere to the principles of an eye for an eye based on the Old Testament, nobody associates violence with their religion!

They can go to jahanam!

Call me what you like- your personal opinion on me doesn’t amount an atoms worth. And I was banned from MPAC for constent viloations and not for being anti-Semtic.

This is no war on terrorism. It is the beginnings of a Final Crusade against Islam and Muslims. The laws and plans, military and otherwise, being introduced, are preparations for a wider war (Afghanistan and Iraq is just the beginning). All the targets are Muslim. Our crime is that our faith is Islam.

We are all guilty. We will all be prosecuted, first the "extremists", then the "moderates", then the cultural Muslims, and finally those in name only. They will use one "type" of Muslim to weaken the other, Musharaf and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban, Arafat against Hamas, spiritual and missionary Muslims against Jihadis, Sufis against Wahhabis, Shia against Sunni, moderate Shias against the "mullahs" and so on. They will attack one Muslim country after the other. All this will go on whilst heads of Muslim states side with the Western Crusading Alliance, but not one Western State will side with the Muslims. By the time Muslims wake up to this reality, it will be too late to use their armed forces.

Beast — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 10:44

[quote="(*_Shazan"]
This is no war on terrorism. It is the beginnings of a Final Crusade against Islam and Muslims. The laws and plans, military and otherwise, being introduced, are preparations for a wider war (Afghanistan and Iraq is just the beginning). All the targets are Muslim. Our crime is that our faith is Islam.

We are all guilty. We will all be prosecuted, first the "extremists", then the "moderates", then the cultural Muslims, and finally those in name only. They will use one "type" of Muslim to weaken the other, Musharaf and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban, Arafat against Hamas, spiritual and missionary Muslims against Jihadis, Sufis against Wahhabis, Shia against Sunni, moderate Shias against the "mullahs" and so on. They will attack one Muslim country after the other. All this will go on whilst heads of Muslim states side with the Western Crusading Alliance, but not one Western State will side with the Muslims. By the time Muslims wake up to this reality, it will be too late to use their armed forces.[/quote]

So, that's why you're anti-Semitic?

*DUST* — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 13:04

[quote="(*_Shazan"][quote="*DUST*"][quote="Beast"][quote="(*_Shazan"]May Allah curse the Israelites[/quote]

Using the term "Israelites" in such a context is anti-Semitic.

Keep it to the IDF or Israeli gov. This way you wont be being anti-Semitic but criticising the actions of the Israeli gov and IDF.[/quote]
He's unashamedly anti-semitic in case you havent noticed. is that why you were banned on MPAC and other forums shazan?[/quote]

And the Zionist Israelis adhere to the principles of an eye for an eye based on the Old Testament, nobody associates violence with their religion![/quote]
i'm not talking about zionists (who can be of any religion), i'm talking about jews. :roll:

Anonymous (not verified) — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 16:46

[quote="Beast"]
So, that's why you're anti-Semitic?[/quote]

Because I said Israelites? I’m also anti your beloved land of your forefathers

[quote="Sirus"]abit apacolyptic[/quote]

Like your Tablighi critique, “go round telling people to convert or go hell”

[quote="Dust"]
i'm not talking about zionists (who can be of any religion), i'm talking about jews.[/quote]

oh. Are you scared to put your neck out for Israel?
[/quote]

Sirus — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 17:39

[quote]
Because I said Israelites? I’m also anti your beloved land of your forefathers [/quote]

are you trying to say pakistan? :? just say it straight

[quote]Like your Tablighi critique, “go round telling people to convert or go hell”[/quote]

that wasnt apocalyptic...how can it be 😛

Anonymous (not verified) — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 18:03

[quote="Sirus"][quote]
Because I said Israelites? I’m also anti your beloved land of your forefathers [/quote]

are you trying to say pakistan? :? just say it straight

[quote]Like your Tablighi critique, “go round telling people to convert or go hell”[/quote]

that wasnt apocalyptic...how can it be :P[/quote]

No. Certainly not- but I have been accused and put on trial- lucky for us, mob verdicts is not Allah swt verdicts....

I would have enjoyed refuting your doggy Wahhabi and Tablighi affiliation, but I feel embarrassed replying to hogwash.

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Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him. [Imam Al-Shafi'i]

Beast — Wed, 19 Jul 2006 - 18:37

[quote="(*_Shazan"][quote="Beast"]
So, that's why you're anti-Semitic?[/quote]

Because I said Israelites? I’m also anti your beloved land of your forefathers
[/quote]
Let me clarify.

Dust said that you are unashamedly anti-Semitic i.e. you have a hateful prejudice against Jews. She proposed that this is probably why you got banned from the MPAC forum.

You replied that your anti-Semitism was not the reason for being banned from the MPAC forum and that this is not a war on terrorism, this is a crusade, and we're all gonna die.

I was just wondering what the war on terror etc has to do with your reply to Dust that you were not banned from MPAC for being anti-Semitic.

[quote="(*_Shazan"]Because I said Israelites? [/quote]

Your use of the word Israelites in a negative context vis-a-vis Israel is not the reason why you are anti-Semitic. It is a symptom of anti-Semitism.

[quote="(*_Shazan"]I’m also anti your beloved land of your forefathers [/quote]

Whaaa???

What's the "land of my forefathers" got to do with it?

The Great 100 — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 - 20:12

I want to thank everyone who has stood up against antisemitism and distinguished it from considered criticism of Israel.

I do not know if Israel's policy in Lebanon is justified. So far Israel has taken out more than half of Hizballah's rockets and unquestionably given them long-term damage, and even if they survive I daresay there can be no response to Hizbullah but a violent one. Israel has also killed a vast number of civilians. I can only justify continuing this policy if Israel can find a way to avoid civilians. I would like to point out that Hizbullah is deliberately firing from civilian areas in Christian villages. In this regard Israel faces the unique problem of terrorists effectively taking the locals or in Gaza their own countrymen hostage. This fact only partially vindicates Israel, because Israel knows this and goes ahead anyway. So the dilemma is how Israel can have security and fight the enemy, knowing that there are civilians about, without hitting the civilians. I don't have an answer but it is not to disregard the dilemma and it is not to quit the fight so it has to do with accuracy and preparedness to fight another day.

The Great 100 — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 - 20:15

[quote="*DUST*"][url=http://www.nkusa.org/]Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism[/url][/quote]

Dust, they are very strange people. A number of Chasidic groups never supported Israel but very few have done what Neturei Karta have done and stood with the mujahideen. They argue on religious grounds, that the return to Zion is a prophesied messianic event and that mashiach is not here. If you present them as popular or even as potentially agreeable I believe you are mistaken.

Beast — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 - 22:52

[quote="The Great 100"][quote="*DUST*"][url=http://www.nkusa.org/]Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism[/url][/quote]

Dust, they are very strange people. A number of Chasidic groups never supported Israel but very few have done what Neturei Karta have done and stood with the mujahideen. They argue on religious grounds, that the return to Zion is a prophesied messianic event and that mashiach is not here. If you present them as popular or even as potentially agreeable I believe you are mistaken.[/quote]

Popular and agreeable Jewish critics of Israel are [url=http://www.chomsky.info/]Noam Chomsky[/url] and [url=http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/]Norman Finkelstein[/url]. [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/184467049X/026-2659913-5350055?v=gla… Chutzpah[/i][/url] is a must read.

The Israeli human rights organisation [url=http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp]B'Tselem[/url] regularly documents and criticises Israeli violations of international humanitarian law.

Beast — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 - 23:23

[quote="The Great 100"]So the dilemma is how Israel can have security and fight the enemy, knowing that there are civilians about, without hitting the civilians. [/quote]

This is not a dilemma for Israel.

The IDF regularly resorts to reckless use of force showing callous disregard for human life.

Israel too fires from civilian areas, sometimes from peoples’ homes: [quote] Some families found their houses taken over and used as military positions by the IDF during an operation while they themselves were ordered to remain inside.
[/quote] http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel2/israel0402.pdf (PDF)
Amnesty International – IN A DARK HOUR: THE USE OF CIVILIANS DURING IDF ARREST OPERATIONS, 2002

[quote] Israeli government and military officials have repeatedly stated that all care is taken not to cause harm to other Palestinians when they carry out such assassinations. The facts, however, indicate otherwise. Scores of men, women and children bystanders have been killed and hundreds have been injured in the course of assassinations or attempted assassinations of Palestinians by the Israeli army.

On 24 June 2003 Israeli Air Force Commander Major General Dan Halutz said on Israeli army radio that in the assassination of Salah Shehadeh "we fired knowing his wife would be near him". On the night of 22 July 2002 the Israeli army dropped a one-ton bomb from an F16 fighter jet on a densely populated neighbourhood of Gaza City, killing Hamas activist Salah Shehadeh, the target of the attack, and 16 civilians, nine of them children. His wife and daughter were among the victims. Some 70 others were injured in the attack and six nearby houses were also destroyed. Amnesty International delegates visited the site of the attack and interviewed neighbours shortly after the attack. The following day Prime Minister Ariel Sharon publicly referred to the attack as "one of the most successful operations".

… widespread and increasingly entrenched pattern of killings and injury of bystanders in the pursuit of a policy of assassinations, themselves unlawful. Claims that efforts are made not to harm bystanders are inconsistent with the practice of carrying out attacks on busy roads and densely populated areas, knowing that it would be virtually impossible not to hurt bystanders. Such practices violate Israel’s obligations under both international human rights and humanitarian law.[/quote] http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150562003
Amnesty International – Israel must end its policy of assassinations, 2003

[quote] Human Rights Watch said that attacks on civilians, or acts to intimidate civilians, clearly violate international humanitarian law, and may constitute war crimes, even if carried out in reprisal for attacks by an adversary on one’s own civilians. [/quote] http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/13/lebano13736.htm
Human Rights Watch - Do Not Attack Civilians, July 13 2006

[quote] In one incident on Monday, Israeli missiles struck a convoy of trucks from the United Arab Emirates near the town of Zahleh as it approached Beirut from Syria, damaging or destroying three of the trucks, as well as four passenger vehicles. Washington Post and Agence France-Press reporters at the scene wrote that the trucks contained supplies of medicines, vegetable oil, sugar and rice. The Red Crescent Society of the United Arab Emirates (UAE RC) said in a statement that the convoy contained medical supplies and medicines, as well as several ambulances. The statement said that at least one person was killed. UAE officials have said that the convoy was clearly marked as a relief operation. [/quote] http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/20/lebano13779.htm
Human Rights Watch – Israel Must Provide Safe Passage to Relief Convoys, July 20 2006

[quote] On Saturday, a number of families fled the southern Lebanese village of Marwahin after the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) warned them to evacuate ahead of a threatened attack. On the road leading to the coast through Chamaa, however, Israeli missiles struck a convoy of the civilians. Maps of southern Lebanon show this road to be the only direct route for escaping the dangerous border area. [/quote] http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/isrlpa13756.htm
Human Rights Watch - Investigate Attack on Civilians in Lebanon, July 17 2006

Stuff about Israel wanting to avoid civilian casualties is just spin. They are just as bad as, if not worse than, the terrorists they claim to be fighting.

The Great 100 — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 - 23:42

[quote="Beast"][quote="The Great 100"][quote="*DUST*"][url=http://www.nkusa.org/]Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism[/url][/quote]

Dust, they are very strange people. A number of Chasidic groups never supported Israel but very few have done what Neturei Karta have done and stood with the mujahideen. They argue on religious grounds, that the return to Zion is a prophesied messianic event and that mashiach is not here. If you present them as popular or even as potentially agreeable I believe you are mistaken.[/quote]

Popular and agreeable Jewish critics of Israel are [url=http://www.chomsky.info/]Noam Chomsky[/url] and [url=http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/]Norman Finkelstein[/url]. [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/184467049X/026-2659913-5350055?v=gla… Chutzpah[/i][/url] is a must read.

The Israeli human rights organisation [url=http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp]B'Tselem[/url] regularly documents and criticises Israeli violations of international humanitarian law.[/quote]

Btselem do a lot of good. Finkelstein and Chomsky aren't for me.