"Sirus" wrote:

"The Great 100" wrote:

I would think it doesn't require daily beatings, and that someone who is old enough to marry and in a fix with the family might well resort to moving out. People do all kinds of things. LilSis puts it well, she obviously has a pious, open-minded and warm family but acknowledges many families are nothing of the sort.

who does? sorry, didnt read the whole thread!

moving out, and running away are two diff things tho

Still.

Quote:

Yash, you make it sound like you live in the far east every girl left right and center is being forced into marriage. No offence to you, but where you live sounds kinda messed up. Ive never been a supporter of marrying young as they dont know what the hell they're getting themselves into and parents usually stick to the 'we're you're parents we know whats best for you, i say you do bass!' routine.

Every girl has the right to say 'no'... saying 'yes' then saying 'no' is just stupid. If she dont know, or if she's not ready just say so damn it. To hell with the emotional blackmail. Girls should understand its their futures at stake. Im not necessarily saying they're cowards... okay according to my above post i am... its just i have no time or patience for the weak. Stand up and make yourself be heard people. Let them know you wont be forced into this cr@p and you aint gonna take this BS from them.

Actually I live in the UK and the asian community to a large extent is in denial. It has nothing to do with the locality I live in. I could live anywhere in the world, this problem would still remain.I mean would you wana admit your community is responsible for forcing girls into marrying against their wishes? You don't have to live in the far East to experience forced marriages.

As for girls being weak. If you know you'll get a good beating, or be made destitute at say 16 yrds old, or be disowned, denied access to your siblings, i doubt you would say no. Very few girls would say no in such a situation. You may see it as a weakness in these girls but I don't. Not everyone has the courage to leave not only home but all their siblings, knowing they may never see them again.

You're speaking as a guy so I don't think you can understand the female position.

I never said all girls are beaten. Those who aren't beaten are "pressured" on a daily basis to get married to whom the parents choose. Defining "pressure" and "Compulsion" is very hard. A girl may feel they're one of the same thing.

Yep they have a choice, but within boundaries. These boundaries are normally son/daughter you can marry whom you choose so long as they're muslim (which i won't argue with), Same ethnic origin i.e we're bengali so the partner must be bengali, same caste if you follow a caste system, same colour, same language. Do you call this freedom to "choose"?

I never expected total agreement from anyone, that's just how i see things. Of all the asian friends I had at school all of the Pakistani girls were effectively forced to marry their cousins back home. As for the Bengali girls I know one rebelled left home, and she was disowned. I have one mate right now who is being pressured to marry exactly whom her parents choose. So far she's said no, no, no. But she knows she can't fob them off for much longer, she has said she knows she'll have to say yes eventually otherwise she'll wake up one day and the wedding will be arranged. We've spoken about her leaving home, but she doesn't wana lose her siblings, although she's willing to leave her parents. So the situation isn't as simple as you're making out is it?

Yes i've seen liberal parents who have very different attitudes. But generally i don't think things have changed very much at all. Like my parents generation for example they're still very much stuck in their old ways, and ironically a lot of their backward traditions are now being copied by the new generation.

btw 100 i don't think this is a muslim issue at all. of late everything seems to be a muslim issue it's an insane comment and way off line.

Prevalent amongst many different cultures and religions but tends to be centred around, asian or indopak communities. Asians and Indopaks apartf rom muslims tend to be sikhs, hindus, bhuddists,christians, Jains etc.

yashmaki,

Maybe in some other ethnicities also but it is very much a Muslim issue. Muslims who do this cite Islam and not Benny Hill. Until Muslims acknowledge that many cultural problems are advanced by people citing Islam they will be unable to deal with it, because nobody is addressing the authority behind such practises. I know that my opinion may make you defensive but that doesn't change it. Where I may be out of line is my comment on another thread about women in burqas, and about that I am far more open to your opinion.

actually they don't cite islam, granted a few may but rather lamely. How can they cite Islam, when Islam very clearly says there is no marriage without the woman's consent? Also Islam says we can marry whom ever we choose regardless of "boundaries" so long as they are "muslim" or ppl of the book. So if you hear someone citing Islam ask them for the evidence, they won't able to tell you nothing but a few incoherent lines about this is what islam says, i say so coz my mum and dad taught me that way. Their ignorance will be very apparent.

You only have to tune in to the bbc asian network radio or alternatively their forum on the bbc to see that this problem with forced marriages and runaways is prevalent amongst Sikhs and Hindus just as much. In fact it can be worse coz they have the caste system which parents feel very strongly about. This was discussed on the radio just last week. It's more about culture and traditon rather than religion. You have probably heard more stories of runaways and forced marriages with muslim examples so your view is some what tainted.

It's all about reputation in the community, religion is far from it.

I find that many Hindus in Britain are like upper-class Muslims from India and Pakistan in being open-minded and kind about other cultures. Having said that, perhaps you are right about there being a problem with Sikhs and Hindus, but there is a specific problem in the Muslim community, and the people who adhere to misogeny do cite the Qu'ran, just as people with other vile practises such as mass murder cite the Qu'ran, just as you cite the Qu'ran when making your point about how lovely Islam is, which no doubt it can be. I'm sorry, yashmaki, but there is no point trying to convince me that this problem can be entirely treated as areligious. Take your evidences and show them to the wife-beaters and girl-killers, I don't need them.

Yash: maybe you're right, bcoz im a guy i see things differently. But i just call it like i see it. If the familys all against her, why cant she bring in a third party? A cousin, an aunt someone who will see her side of the arguement (personally i would have thought the girls mother would be able to help) and intervene.

As far as i knew they only boundaries that should exist are that they should be muslims aswell. Everything else after that is parental culture cr@p. Although i understand the reasoning behind the culture side, its not necessary or compulsary which is why ive always told my parents that.

I realise a girl can have some pressure one her (with the passing of time and her biological clock and all that) but surely they can find a suitable partner which she wont reject. Personally im against the 'cousin from back home' routine its plain arrogance to the point of stupidity.

I dont think its impossible for some one to be forced into marriage its just my opionon that its stupid of them to allow it to happen and then complain about it later.

Oh and the freedom to choose is never given... its taken.

Thing is I know some people where what Seraph is describing happened, and later they changed their mind AFTER marriage, and then said they were forced. Then they drag it out ruining the others' life for atleast a while.

That also happens, with weak souls latching onto stereo-types as an excuse.

I do accept that.

The only thing is its not always the case.

So you have to look at everything on a case by case basis.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"Seraphim" wrote:

I dont think its impossible for some one to be forced into marriage its just my opionon that its stupid of them to allow it to happen and then complain about it later.

.

ur very naive

tell me-where did u purchase ur rose tinted glasses frm

Which part of that is naive??

If you were actually paying attention you'd notice i accepted it happens but added the girls not always soo innocent as you make out. Admin has already expanded on this point so i wont go further into it.

And I still think its stupid if they allow it to happen. You are who you choose to be, and you are where you are becoz of the choices you've made. Fate will judge you on your choices not your reasons behind them.

Now you can either accept that or you're in dire need of those rose tinted glasses which your soooo fond of.

Love/loyalty/ a sense of “owing”/obligations/emotional attachment/fear of being disowned by the parents etc are incredibly strong feelings…

I can understand why a young girl would feel compelled to marry someone just to keep her parents happy with her….I myself could never be happy knowing that my parents were not happy with me.

I don’t think giving into emotional blackmail highlights how “stupid” one is.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I don’t think giving into emotional blackmail highlights how “stupid” one is.

Perhaps stupid is a strong word... but i would never give in to it. Giving in would mean i allow and accept it which i dont. My personal view point is people should make more of an effort to stand up against this.

Maybe girls are incapable of doing this especially against their parents.... i dunno. And im not saying do this so you can marry your bf or something like that but stand against whats wrong and stay strong in what is true.

"Seraphim" wrote:

My personal view point is people should make more of an effort to stand up against this.

A friend of mine was saying 'No' until her wedding day, it was only when she said 'No' to the Imam who asked her if she accepted the proposal on her wedding day did her parents finally get the message..

For the rest, well the whole tears and drama act that some parents do is enough to force them to agree.

Even though I'm fortunate enough to come from a family who wouldnt even consider putting me through this...I know that I'm weak enough to succumb to such pressure.

This life is a test - sometimes we fail and sometimes we pass.

Those who run off although they do a wrong act need to be offered sympathy and good advice and brought back to their homes - particularly the women. It is easy to judge them and to condemn but that isnt going to change them nor remedy the situation.

The correct approach is to help and provide assistance to such women/men and encourage them to go back to their families. The devil is an extremely clever and devious enemy and he deludes even the most pious people so we are no challenge to him.

There is an arabic saying:

"Ash shabaabu sho'batum minal junoon"
That youth is a branch of madness.

and indeed this is true. In the folly of youth a person becomes deluded and intoxicated with romantic ideas and illusions - the test is to pass it.

Any girl considering running off should be advised by her sincere advisers not to run off no matter how good the other person appears because actions taken against the pleasure of the parents are lacking in blessing and are accursed.

The person should be asked that what matters more to you this boy/girl or your ALLAH? InshaALLAH they will choose ALLAH and hence tell them that for the pleasure of ALLAh stamp on your nafs and obey your parents. This is the path to salvation and this is the path to Jannah.

May ALLAH Most High ennable us to follow the Path of the Righteous and save us from delusion in deen. ameen.

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

there is no marriage without consent

so "stamping on ur nafs and doing whatever ur parents say" is not applicable here

We all have our own opinions. But I think seraph and yashmaki mentioned how if a girl/boy for their parents sake agrees to a marriage then its not really forced - forced is wen she/he is taken kicking and screaming.

At the end of the day lets look at what the fuqaha have written and it is well-known that if a boy says qabool then its valid, and if a girl remains silent then its accepted.

It has even been mentioned in some of the books that if a girls nikah is done while she is a minor then when she becomes mature she must at the time of attaining maturity decline the nikah verbally or it is binding on her. People should consult the relevant books and ulama.

"Seraphim" wrote:

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I don’t think giving into emotional blackmail highlights how “stupid” one is.

Perhaps stupid is a strong word... but i would never give in to it. Giving in would mean i allow and accept it which i dont. My personal view point is people should make more of an effort to stand up against this.

Ok how can someone stand up to someone when they are in a situation where they are getting physically abused and their family is all they have?Most of us here on this forum don't have this problem but the fact remains there are other girls out there who face this and give into such blackmail and violence for their own safety.

"Angel" wrote:

"Seraphim" wrote:

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I don’t think giving into emotional blackmail highlights how “stupid” one is.

Perhaps stupid is a strong word... but i would never give in to it. Giving in would mean i allow and accept it which i dont. My personal view point is people should make more of an effort to stand up against this.

Ok how can someone stand up to someone when they are in a situation where they are getting physically abused and their family is all they have?Most of us here on this forum don't have this problem but the fact remains there are other girls out there who face this and give into such blackmail and violence for their own safety.

Safety is nothing, the will is everything.

Put your foot down girl. Tell them they can do what they like but you aint changing your mind. Becoz no it doesnt matter if they raise their hands to beat you or raise their hands to beg you; you only have one life to lead and marrying the wrong person will only make things worse as you're not only runing your life but the other persons aswell.

Seek help if they can, try and persuade their parents if they can but the bottomline: tell them you aint gonna take this lying down.

"Seraphim" wrote:

Safety is nothing, the will is everything.

Put your foot down girl. Tell them they can do what they like but you aint changing your mind. Becoz no it doesnt matter if they raise their hands to beat you or raise their hands to beg you; you only have one life to lead and marrying the wrong person will only make things worse as you're not only runing your life but the other persons aswell.

Seek help if they can, try and persuade their parents if they can but the bottomline: tell them you aint gonna take this lying down.

Seraph, its easy for us to say this all but you can't truly know what a person is going through and how hard it is for them to say no, some people have parents who are backwards and would do anythin to force their children into marriage, so its not as easy as you're making it out to seem.

You think these girls don't think twice before running away? For a girl her home, her parents mean a lot, so to leave that all is very hard. Also to stand up to backward people whose thinking dont change is a tough thing, so i think you can only say this if you have yourself been through this.

I never said it was going to be easy angel. Change rarely is. But untill we are willing to make it happen nothing will change. I agree im fortunate enough to have parents who arent as closed minded as some can be but my point is still certainly valid.

Lastly... not all girls are that innocent as you're making out. Some make a habbit of running away over the tiniest of matters. But thats not whats under question here.

Standing up against such backward people will be tough due to their arrogance and pride. That much anyone can say and agree upon without having to have faced it ourselves. Its common sense really. But the key to fighting ignorance is knowledge.

Make no mistake marriage can be a life changing experience for the good aswell as the bad. So if by Islamic and British law you have a choice in the matter... who will you stand with?

"Seraphim" wrote:

Safety is nothing, the will is everything.

Put your foot down girl. Tell them they can do what they like but you aint changing your mind. Becoz no it doesnt matter if they raise their hands to beat you or raise their hands to beg you; you only have one life to lead and marrying the wrong person will only make things worse as you're not only runing your life but the other persons aswell.

what a load of rubbish. :roll: it helps to be alive to actually get married. if a girl's parents are evil enough to beat her with their own hands to force her into a mariage, how does she know she'll be alive after her next beating? :roll:

i'm sorry if that was harsh seraph, but i've read all your posts in this thread and they are ridiculously insensitive. you are so detached from the reality of the situation that you cannot even empathise with such people. :?

Man jailed for murdering sister

A man has been found guilty of murdering his sister after she fell in love with the wrong man.

Greengrocer Azhar Nazir, 30, was convicted of murdering 25-year-old Samaira at the family's home in Southall, west London in April 2005.

She was stabbed 18 times after asking permission to marry an asylum seeker from Afghanistan.

Prosecutor Sally Howes QC told the trial Samaira's family wanted her to marry within the Pakistani family circle

After a heated row, Miss Nazir was repeatedly stabbed and had her throat cut. A neighbour heard her screams and knocked on the door.

Miss Howes told the court: "She was murdered in her own home where she bled to death following a horrific attack during which she was beaten and had multiple stab wounds.

"The defendants acted together by stabbing Samaira and holding on to her to prevent her escaping."

Both face life sentences.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5087702.stm]BBC NEWS[/url]

Seraph,

This girl stood up for herself and refused to marry within the family...look where is got her.

Lookin at the above situation, you understand why girls run away from such idiotic parents, its the most digustin thing anyone can do, take the life of someone to suit their own pathetic "values". I hope Allah (swt) blesses her with peace in heaven and gives guidance to her family so they never think of doing this kind of thing ever again.

I just dont know how people can live with themselves after killing someone who is family, i just dont.

Seraph i am not making out all girls to be innocent, but in such situations like the above, I understand why girls run away, for them that is the only way to live and get away from such torture.

May ALLAH have mercy on the lady.

May ALLAH have mercy on her family.

ameen.

MS, that man was a coward and an a$$ for murdering his own sister. A guy who does that should have his a$$ removed.

Secondly the actions of a sick individual does not represent the majority. Any guy who kills/beats his sister for whatever reason is an a$$ in my opionon and i pity the fool.

Sisters should be able to trust their brother to back them up and brothers should be able to trust their sisters enough to back them up.
Aslong as what they're doing is not Islamicly wrong brothers should not have a problem helping them out.

I acknowledge that there are geniunly a few evil people out there who deserve whatever comes there way, but my feelings are a person should not run away from a problem but stand and fight for it. Unfortunately somes times you loose fights. Maybe im thinking about this too much from a guys point of view but theres nothing i do about that.

"Seraphim" wrote:

Sisters should be able to trust their brother to back them up and brothers should be able to trust their sisters enough to back them up.

...in an ideal world. and in an ideal world, a girl would not expect to be beaten/killed when she 'stands up' for her Islamic rights. however it is sad that this does indeed happen and the world we live in is far from ideal.

I've heard quite a few stories where the parent has found out that their daughter has a boyfriend so they take her back home and get her married off.

They 'persuade' her to get married and not force her.

Isn't it better to get married then to have a boyfriend....

Can I have your views on this.