Noor or Bashar
Salaam,
Last week in university, i was sitting in a study area, doing my work, across from me was a group of girls, all of them were of Asian or Middle-Eastern backgrounds, a few wearing hijab I think, i didnt pay too much attention to them. They were speakin very loudly, and i shushed them a few times, but girls being girls, they payed no mind to me, so I gave up.
Im tryna do my work, but they jus too loud, i cant help but hear there conversation. Suddenly I start listening because I heard one of them say "....noor or bashar".
So I start to listen, call it evesdroppin if you will, but they were on max volume, askin for it. One of the girls says "I was always told the Prophet s.a.w is Noor", and I see a lotta head turn, I look up to see a lot of the girls giving her a shocked look.
They start to throw at her hadith after hadith, narrating verses from the quran, taking them completely out of context, to prove to this young woman, that the Prophet is Bashar, and one even says, "he's not alive anymore".
Anyway this continues for about 5 minutes, and thers atleast 15 of them, and now, they all believe The prophet is Bashar and they were never Noor.
One starts narrating hadith from Tirmidhi Shareef. to further prove her point, then she goes onto a different subject, So im thinking to myself, this girl's got the Tirmidhi Shareef, surely she must have the Shamail Tirmidhi, in which is clear proof, from the character of the Prophet s.a.w.
So this conversation goes on, and one of them says something which disgusted me completely, all this tym ive shushed em, n ive not joined the convo, but now im thinking, "its over now, im joining ya conversation, watch out world". I give them a disgusted look, a few of them see me, and one says "lets go now", I thought to myself "you lucky you got up, other wise it cudda gotten ugly".
Now, I like to think im very tolerable when people talk of aqeedah, and they have certain differences. I think this because in my family, we have all kinds of aqeedah's. Some cousins follow the scholors of Deoband, some Brelwi's, Im more conformed to the Aqeedah of ahl-e-sunnah and follow the scholors of Minhaj, some are Salafi, a few HT's etc etc. And, for the most we all get along, but in family gatherings, when this issue is raised, people are flinging around many insults, Shirk this biddah that etc etc.
So, Revival Family, lets not make this a bashing thread, lets talk about this like civilised muslims, tolerable muslims.
What, in your view, is the Prophet s.a.w. Noor (light) or Bashar (flesh like us). And whatever you beleive, when we talk about them should we pay respect and send durood upon them?
My personal Belief is, they were Noor, with an extent of bashar. That bashar was there to show us, that a human being can be perfect, and we are to follow their perfect example, and we are to fight our nafs and unleash the light within us. I beleive that the Holy Prophet s.a.w. is still amongst us, and if we draw close to them, they will watch over and protect us. They can do all this because they are close to Allah swt.
Re: Noor or Bashar
Noor or Bashar
thght Adam (as) was a creation of Allah, made from the earth. He had life breathed into Him, He was considered a human being, of flesh. The same is said of all Prophets following him they were humans. This concept of them literally being made of light is new to me. To say He ﷺ was the light is very different from saying He ﷺ was made from light? I thght angels were made from light? Enough said.
I'll leave this topic to the scholars I'm not sure what you mean. i think it's dangerous to talk about these kinder things can lead to blashphemous and even erronous statements. I'm surprised the sisters were talking about such an in depth topic so casually :? but at least they weren't talking about boys which was the nonsense i heard in libraries :roll:
Noor or Bashar
Why is it always noor or bashar. The Prophet salalhu'alyhi wasalam is both noor and bashar. The teacher of Imam Bukhari 'alyhi rahma Shaykh Abdur-Razzaq re-affirms this with the hadith narrtated by Jabir radhiallahu ta'ala.
My shaykh told me how the Salafi versions of Shaykh Abdur-Razzaq 'alyhi rahmas' collection had removed this particular hadith. The hadith is as follows:
It is related that Jabir ibn `Abd Allah said to the Prophet: "O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be sacrificed for you, tell me of the first thing Allah created before all things." He said: "O Jabir, the first thing Allah created was the light of your Prophet from His light, and that light remained (lit. "turned") in the midst of His Power for as long as He wished, and there was not, at that time, a Tablet or a Pen or a Paradise or a Fire or an angel or a heaven or an earth. And when Allah wished to create creation, he divided that Light into four parts and from the first made the Pen, from the second the Tablet, from the third the Throne, [and from the fourth everything else]."
Mawlid mubarak
Re: Noor or Bashar
[quote="*DUST*"]
i'm confused. :? why are you saying 'they' and 'them'? are you talking about Mohammed (s.a.w) or all the Prophets (a.s)?[/quote]
Salaam
That used to throw me a bit as well.
'They' here is used rspectfully, instead of 'him'.
I think its the same way that 'We' is used in arabic instead of 'I' to denote great respect.
To conclude, 'They' is used as a more respectful pronoun than 'He'.
Noor or Bashar
but we dont even call Allah (s.w.t) 'Them'. :?
Noor or Bashar
[quote="*DUST*"]but we dont even call Allah (s.w.t) 'Them'. :?[/quote]
Sometimes people do, but they say Allah SWT more often than using pronouns.
Noor or Bashar
This is not so much proofs as a viewpoint.
Its part of a summary by Muslim Sister on a video of Shaykh ul Islam Dr Tahir Ul Qadri.
I agree with it.
[quote]
On this Day the Believers will be saved because of Allah (swt) mercy whilst the sinners will be saved because due to intercession by Our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (s). On the Day of Judgment, Allah (swt) will be on His throne and our Holy Prophet (s) will be on His right side at the superior Abode. The Holy Quran substantiates this fact in these following words. ‘Soon your Lord will raise you to Mukam e Mehmood’ (a station of praise and glory).
Some hadiths narrate that this station is the actual throne of Allah (swt). Allah (swt) is the lord of the heavens and the earth and it is up to him whom He allows to sit beside His throne. This does not in any way diminish or reduce the Exalted status of our Creator. For instance when a King sits with His Slave, this does not reduce the status of the King but only exalts the status of His Slave. In the same way The Holy Prophet (s) is the devotee of Allah (swt). He is the light of Allah (swt) but not Allah (swt) himself, but at the same time He (s) is not separate and alien from Allah (swt).
[/quote]
Noor or Bashar
[quote="Tushu"]Why is it always noor or bashar. The Prophet salalhu'alyhi wasalam is both noor and bashar. The teacher of Imam Bukhari 'alyhi rahma Shaykh Abdur-Razzaq re-affirms this with the hadith narrtated by Jabir radhiallahu ta'ala.
My shaykh told me how the Salafi versions of Shaykh Abdur-Razzaq 'alyhi rahmas' collection had removed this particular hadith. The hadith is as follows:
It is related that Jabir ibn `Abd Allah said to the Prophet: "O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be sacrificed for you, tell me of the first thing Allah created before all things." He said: "O Jabir, the first thing Allah created was the light of your Prophet from His light, and that light remained (lit. "turned") in the midst of His Power for as long as He wished, and there was not, at that time, a Tablet or a Pen or a Paradise or a Fire or an angel or a heaven or an earth. And when Allah wished to create creation, he divided that Light into four parts and from the first made the Pen, from the second the Tablet, from the third the Throne, [and from the fourth everything else]."
Mawlid mubarak[/quote]
khair mubarak bro
i remember reading about the light and how creation came out of it, and the pen/tablet/throne ...... from a Seerah by the wife of Shaykh Nazim Haqqani (or im told it was her) - a very interesting read and very informative
noor and bashr is my aqeedah
and Dawuds post sums it up too
but like yash said, i cant comment much more as i possess little knowledge on the matter
Noor or Bashar
That seerah was definatly written by Shaykh Nazim's wife Hayder.
As for the them and they thing, and the fact we dont call Allah s.w.t. them...
The way i see it is, we say they and them in stead of he and him to the Prophet s.a.w, I've jus got a habit of doing this, its outta respect. We dont say they when mentioning Allah s.w.t. because they and them refers to creation...
Noor or Bashar
Salaam
I do agree that this argument that lead to people getting personal and emotional for some reason.
He ﷺ was Noor and Bashr in my view.
He ﷺ had no shadow nor did flies sit on His and His sweat smelt sweeter than musk….so there’s no way He could have only been a bashr like us.
And, even the Noor aspect of Him ﷺ was way above the noor of the noble angels…as manifested in the incident when He ﷺ crossed Siddra tul Muntaha (the highest place in heaven) which even Angel Gabriel was unable to cross because he would have burnt…
Wasalaam
Noor or Bashar
cant believe we are duiscussing noor or bashr????
of all issues...
shocking?
and what will it achieve....
eee...i dunno....
razor, first it HT bashin, now noor bashr, what next??
i am tempted to lock this....
Noor or Bashar
[quote="TheRevivalEditor"]cant believe we are duiscussing noor or bashr????
of all issues...
shocking?
and what will it achieve....
eee...i dunno....
razor, first it HT bashin, now noor bashr, what next??
i am tempted to lock this....[/quote]
Grumpy Ed, wheres normal Ed gone? He still on holiday?
I brought this up cuz i rememberd it being discussed, n I thouhgt, well thers no Med type character on the board anymore, so lets increase our imaan, by reminding ourselves of The Prophet's s.a.w. beauty, if ofcourse thas ok with you grumpy boss.
Noor or Bashar
the only problem is Razor that we will have differences of opinion only in the Prophet's ﷺ case any differences or discussions about his great nature ie noor or basher seems flippant and disrespectful.
we could not do it justice unless we were scholars.
i think the thread should be locked because a word wrong here could land us in eternal trouble
Noor or Bashar
[quote="laila"]the only problem is Razor that we will have differences of opinion only in the Prophet's ﷺ case any differences or discussions about his great nature ie noor or basher seems flippant and disrespectful.
we could not do it justice unless we were scholars.
i think the thread should be locked because a word wrong here could land us in eternal trouble[/quote]
Fair point, lets lock it down n throw away the key
Noor or Bashar
[quote="razor"]As for the them and they thing, and the fact we dont call Allah s.w.t. them...
The way i see it is, we say they and them in stead of he and him to the Prophet s.a.w, I've jus got a habit of doing this, its outta respect. We dont say they when mentioning Allah s.w.t. because they and them refers to creation...[/quote]
thats not true, 'We' is used in the Quran in reference to Allah (s.w.t), and Allah (s.w.t) is referred to as 'He' as well.
Noor or Bashar
shall I bore youlot with science?
every matter has a wavelength... as in wave... as in energy.. as in 'noor'.
The Prophet ﷺ is what Allah (swt) created him as. Everyone else is Allah (swt) created it as.
There is no insult in being created in a certain way, nor is there IMO any respect in being created in a certain way.
Besides I thoughts we were the souls, which are trapped in human bodies?
(and 'Ed we cannot have a discussion board where all we do is say 'I can't believe we are discussing this! Shock horror!' You are way too reactionary. People discuss what they wanna discuss. Then people mention what they think. And everyone should try to be cordial. Including 'Ed. No need to talk down to anyone, or be condescending. Afterall if I do not want to discuss a topic, I try not to post in it...)
Noor or Bashar
De Broglie wavelength, interesting way of looking at it.
Noor or Bashar
[quote="Admin"]
(and 'Ed we cannot have a discussion board where all we do is say 'I can't believe we are discussing this! Shock horror!' You are way too reactionary. People discuss what they wanna discuss. Then people mention what they think. And everyone should try to be cordial. Including 'Ed. No need to talk down to anyone, or be condescending. Afterall if I do not want to discuss a topic, I try not to post in it...)[/quote]
oh really....
mmm.. a thousand year old topic..
as you know this topic needs commentary of quran and quotes from classical scholars
its an issue that ulema ikhtilaaf on
not a topic for us tom, dick and harry's....
because when us tom, dick and harry's discuss it, it normally turns out pair shape and incites sectarianism and division..
but anyway... continue...
Noor or Bashar
you see, you could have said that in the first place. Instead you chose to be condescending.
All you had to say was:
'this topic can cause fitna. Ulema have some ikhtelaaf on this issue. I am not comfortable for people to discuss it without scholarly guidance.'
All we need to do is set a base limit, which being the Prophet ﷺ is what Allah (swt) created him as. Nothing less. Nothing more.
After that people can take part in almost futile discussions of details. and most discussions will be futile, and not resolve anything.
What matters is how you go into the subject. If you just rant and rave, you may make Abu Hamza sound credible...
Noor or Bashar
[quote="Admin"]
What matters is how you go into the subject. If you just rant and rave, you may make Abu Hamza sound credible...[/quote]
i give up!
Noor or Bashar
wahey!
(its not about winning or losing. But the taking part,. As long as its cordial that is! ) 😛
Noor or Bashar
Salam
God is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth.
Prophet Muhammad is the chosen Messenger of God.
Muhammed is not God.
He was created from the Light of God.
Hence, he has some of God's qualities: Knowledge. Goodness. Justice. Mercy. Wisdom.
Omrow
Noor or Bashar
[quote="Omrow"]Salam
God is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth.
Prophet Muhammad is the chosen Messenger of God.
Muhammed is not God.
He was created from the Light of God.
Hence, he has some of God's qualities: Knowledge. Goodness. Justice. Mercy. Wisdom.
Omrow[/quote]
this is what i mean. if omrow understood the topic he would never have said what he has said...
Noor or Bashar
Omrow; He does not have some of God's qualities.
He has the qualities which God gave him.
Even if there are some which are similar, God's qualities are his own, and the Prophet's ﷺ are those which have been granted to him.
which makes the qualities very diferent.
(and that is a separate issue from noor/bashar... good thing we can clear people minds from misconceptions... by giving clear and concise viewpoints.)
Noor or Bashar
You are a Boss. If you have red apples and you give me some red apple then
I have same red apples as you. Quality of the apples does not change.
You are still the Boss.
Noor or Bashar
if you have read apples, and I have read apples, that means we both have red apples.
but they are not the same. I do not have your apples, nor do you have mine.
and the quality is on the age, ripeness and breed of apple, not the colour.
the devil is in the details.
Noor or Bashar
They ARE the same red apples.
Noor or Bashar
no, they are RED apples. They are NOT the same.
and please consult a scholar. Any scholar. it may not sound like a big deal, but it is.
Noor or Bashar
I have. They ARE the same red apples. How I got them is irrelevant.
Noor or Bashar
look in the dictionary at the words same and similar.
[quote="razor"]What, in your view, is the Prophet s.a.w. Noor (light) or Bashar (flesh like us). And whatever you beleive, when we talk about them should we pay respect and send durood upon them?
My personal Belief is, they were Noor, with an extent of bashar. That bashar was there to show us, that a human being can be perfect, and we are to follow their perfect example, and we are to fight our nafs and unleash the light within us. I beleive that the Holy Prophet s.a.w. is still amongst us, and if we draw close to them, they will watch over and protect us. They can do all this because they are close to Allah swt.[/quote]
i'm confused. :? why are you saying 'they' and 'them'? are you talking about Mohammed (s.a.w) or all the Prophets (a.s)?