The Niqab In the West

[quote="khan"]we went down Oxford street on the tube on saturday to do a bit of winter shopping..

the mrs must've been the only one wearing the nikab there...[/quote]
wow, i didn no sick was married either! congrats. 🙂

[quote="Ramz"]My sister in law from back home was refused a job in a nursury. I can understand where they were coming from. Her niqab did scare some of the little kids.

Niqab should be banned in certain professions, but thats just my view. Big up to everyone who wears one.[/quote]

I also heard that Niqab aint encouraged in the career of teaching.

IMO the teaching world is female dominated anyway-its no biggie to remove the Niqab in front of kids

cheers dave([size=9]welcome back[/size]) and asiya.

i think its a tricky one, nikab in employment in the UK.

http://www.eoc.org.uk/

is a good website on Equal Opportunities here. Although Nikabs aren't mentioned, the Hijab is.

Since its not a big issue in the UK,- Nikabi's applying for Jobs, there's no real need at present of a debate at govt level. But the fact they're acknowledging Hijab is sumthing to be pleased about.

My own feelings on the current scope of things, is that there is a lot of unsurety around, both from the community and authority.

Although there's this edgy feeling of unsurety and dodgy articles on opression, there seems to be peace on the streets on sisters wearing Nikab. Attitude of most is, "If she wants to wear it, let her wear it.."

I hope it stays like that..

Salaam

Niqabi’s are (generally) verbally abused more then Hijaabi’s are….

As a Hijaabi, I’ve never been verbally abused…but someone I know was verbally abused on the bus cos she was wearing a Niqab, and her friend was with her at the time and was wearing a Hijab didn’t receive any abuse…

My other Niqabi friend told her to stop wearing it.

For some reason, it does generate a lot of hostility amongst some people.

But whilst I respect Niqabi’s and would love to wear one in the future. I can’t see myself teaching in a Niqab.

Wasalaam

normally abused because of ppls ignorance. They seem to assume we're foreign women, maybe arabs who can't speak English or european refugees. So they swear or pass comments, thinking you won't understand, cowards.

It's part of the test it's a bitter sweet pill. Bitter in the abuses, sacrifices we make in this life, sweet in the next life God willing. I'll put up with the mutterings, stares and abuse.

Sisters in headscarf may think they're better off, or more accepted. But I once wore just the headscarf for a few years, and that's far from the truth. The only difference for me with the headscarf was that ppl just "appear" to accept you without prejudices. But if you talk to i.e your colleagues or other acquaintances you soon realise it was all a front just for "etiquette" and the sake of being "polite". Course there are genuinely nice ppl about who don't give a tuppence whether you're a nun or not. But by n' large the above applies.

I worked for x amount of years in high st fashion store in town. A well known one to you girls. Anyways customers would always ask me at least twice if not thrice do you work here???? Even though I said yes, and even though i wore a badge, and even though i said how can i help you. Would you like some help? Maybe they just thght i was a good samaritan or something, working for free? If that's not prejudice what is?

I'd be behind the till, but they'd ask my colleague for help rather than me. Then pretending to have overlooked me they'd so oh dear didn't realise u worked here. mm sure lady i just had my fingers in the till but you didnt realise duh. :roll:

[quote="yashmaki"]

Sisters in headscarf may think they're better off, or more accepted. But I once wore just the headscarf for a few years, and that's far from the truth. The only difference for me with the headscarf was that ppl just "appear" to accept you without prejudices. But if you talk to i.e your colleagues or other acquaintances you soon realise it was all a front just for "etiquette" and the sake of being "polite". Course there are genuinely nice ppl about who don't give a tuppence whether you're a nun or not. But by n' large the above applies.

:[/quote]

I know where you're coming from. However, even fake, insincere politeness and acceptence is a lot easier to deal with then in your face verbal abuse.

That ^^ and the fact that I don't regard the Niqab as fard is the only reason why I don't wear one.

fair enough, i understand your view.

I've not made up my mind on the shariah status (wajib, recommended, sunnah, fard) of the niqab. But my desire came about from the sunnah aspect, rather than Quranic evidence.

tell the truth sometimes i think i was better off without the face veil least i didn't get blatant abuse. But then i think nah that's just shaytan talking, stuff him. It's all about mind over matter.

Like one of the brothers already I can't take to heart wht others say, otherwise I'd be letting them dictate my life. I should go with what i believe in, even with all it's so called burdens. Coz Allah burdens no Servant beyond his capacity.

to the sister who said kids get scared of the niqab. Well that's not down to us sisters, that's down to parents not edcuating and exposing them to the different races, cultures and religions out there. I've seen nuns when i was young they never scared me off. Perhaps because i'd seen them around prior to that first appearance. It's all about education. If your child has never seen a man in orthodox jewish dress, or a sikh man in his ethnic wear and turban, and sword in hand, i'm sure he/she would be scared in that situation also. It's not just a niqab issue really, i found that comment kinder offensive.

I've seen kids reactions to me, they're more inquisitive than anything else, or giggly, mummy why does that lady wear those clothes. That kind of thing. Never seen a child scared off by me. If they were and the parents weren't looking i'd prob give them a grimacing look for full effect looooool.

i'm sorry Yashmaki but why would one unduly burden oneself anyway

i would feel that niqaab is personal choice and if one is abused one can choose to remove it but if one does not then this can be seen as a keen resolve to stand up to the abusers and this is also a personal choice not a decree from Allah if you see what i mean

so IMO that about Allah not placing heavier burdens then we can bear does not apply here since we choose this particular burden ourselves

i never said i was burdened. the hijab in itself can be testing. so can the man keeping the beard. Ppl can look upon these as burdens, when in fact they're tests. no one would say take off your headscarf or shave off your beard just coz you faced some hardships. You'd deal with it with patience. You'd get over it.

The same goes with the niqab. I'm not removing it coz i face obstacles from society.

With all due respect sister i wear the niqab i think the verse applies here very well. Ppl use that verse even when they are fasting. Human nature we often think we are burdened from the smallest of tests.

well you can look upon everything as a decree from Allah, the will of God good and bad. i duno sis i take a different approach from you just got to accept that.

its tru that some see the niqab as a burden

some dont

some also see hijaab as a burden-some dont

some see prayer as a burden-some dont

it all depends on a persons perception of "burden"

its relative

yep 😃

[quote="yashmaki"]

Like one of the brothers already I can't take to heart wht others say, otherwise I'd be letting them dictate my life. I should go with what i believe in, even with all it's so called burdens. Coz Allah burdens no Servant beyond his capacity.

.[/quote]

prayer etc is farz and all things made farz cannot be a burden realistically as Allah wouldnt burden us in this way.

but when we say as you do and i quote 'i should go with what i believe..' then this to me is clearly a responsibility one places on oneself
you say 'even with its so called burdens' thats why i was thinking yes it is a self made burden if it is a burden at all.

and we all know one can take on burdens oneself which we cannot sometimes bear

anyways sister i respect your resolve and may you continue in your good intentions didnt mean to upset you but i dont think we'll see eye to eye on this one 'no pun intended'

salaam

its interesting this topic coming up,.. even more interesting my chat with the mrs last night,.

got a bit of a dilemma, none of the other females of my family observe the Nikab, whilst many observe the Hijab, and a few that don't.

thats not the dilemma, the Mrs yesterday told me that a few members of my family has advised her to take off the Nikab.

I asked her -why? she said that -people look upon it in a bad way.
I asked -who looks upon it in a bad way? but got no answer.

I then asked her, -what she wants to do,.. she said she'll do what I tell her to do.

Now I don't want to take this decision,.

I got serious and asked her what she wants, and she got all upset and wanted to avoid the topic all together?

Have I missed something?
Am I supposed to read between the lines?
Do I have the right to tell her to take it off or keep it on?
It should be her decision right? I mean she not gonna enter Jannah with my permission..

[quote="khan"]its interesting this topic coming up,.. even more interesting my chat with the mrs last night,.

got a bit of a dilemma, none of the other females of my family observe the Nikab, whilst many observe the Hijab, and a few that don't.

thats not the dilemma, the Mrs yesterday told me that a few members of my family has advised her to take off the Nikab.

I asked her -why? she said that -people look upon it in a bad way.
I asked -who looks upon it in a bad way? but got no answer.

I then asked her, -what she wants to do,.. she said she'll do what I tell her to do.

Now I don't want to take this decision,.

I got serious and asked her what she wants, and she got all upset and wanted to avoid the topic all together?

Have I missed something?
Am I supposed to read between the lines?
Do I have the right to tell her to take it off or keep it on?
It should be her decision right? I mean she not gonna enter Jannah with my permission..[/quote]

Weird that, I was having similar convo (but about hijab) with sumone who thought he had a right to tell someone to do hijab, i dont think anyone has a right to make that decision even if its the husband. A girl knows what is required from her and its her decision, she should knw the consequences.

Just explain to your wife (congrats btw) that its her decision.

if your wife chose to wear the niqab herself, without your saying so, then maybe she got upset coz she wanted you to morally support her, against those family members who are giving her hassle? Maybe she just wants to hear you say damn right keep it on if that's what makes you happy.

Maybe she sees your response as indifferent and insensitive?

But the only way to really know is ask her. Women are really weird like that, they expect you to be psychic, get all touchy over the slightest things sometimes.

She'll get through it insha'Allah.

P.s angel you sure husband hasn't got a right? When a girl is living with her parents, her parents have more rights over her. So parents can ask of their daughter to wear the hijab. Whether she does or not is her choice. Similarly when a girl marries her husband has more rights over her than her parents do. In the sense that as long as he doesn't ask of anything unislamic, then she is obligated to obey him, over her parents. So Islamically he will be held responsible for his household. He will have to answer for how he bought up his kids, and gave his wife her rights. Surely it's his religious obligation to ask of his wife to wear the hijab. He is just encouraging her towards the good. He wants her to be the best role model for his kids, especially his daughters. If he doesn't do this he will be held accountable won't he? His wife could turn around on judgement day and say well my husband never told me i had to wear it, he was happy with other men seeing me.

Force i don't agree with, but just telling her politely why she should wear hijab, and that he would be happy if she would wear it, and obviously it would be most pleasing to God? Similarly she should ask of him to keep a beard if he already doesn't.

I know that's one of the things that was very important to me when i married. I needed someone who would encourage and support me in the deen. If my husband failed to do this then i would just think he doesn't really care about his faith much.

I'm pretty sure i've read about this issue somewhere, can't recall where though....anyways.

Nice post Yash. Yes, the best partner is the one who supports and encourages his other half in deeni matters.

But its also nice for them to be both on the same wavelength too. Sometimes, two individual's who may be religiously clued out share too many differences.

This is cos ones priorities sometimes differ..I've heard of religious husbands who are strongly anti the Niqab. This makes it difficult for their wife to wear one.

majority opinion is that niqab is not obligatory therefore if husband requests it not to be worn then we should oblige. i can see more of the other way round happening ie husband asking wife to wear one.

because it is not obligatory then it becomes a matter of personal choice and thus a purely selfish act

before anyone gets up in arms i consider all extra religious acts which displease others by any means as selfish ie reading Quran too loudly as to keep people awake etc

[quote="seema*"]

because it is not obligatory then it becomes a matter of personal choice and thus a purely selfish act[/quote]

But wouldn't you think holding the view that you do is selfish as well. Because the girls in niqab are causing you no problem and they doing that little extra to please Allah swt, which is on their own back to bear. I remember asking someone on the forum once how Imam Abu Hanifa was able to do all the things he did in one day with minmum sleep and they said that people who strive in the way of Allah swt, see it as no burden. Which is true and apply in this ocassion. I may not understand how they capable to do it, but i respect the fact that they are able to do it.

Sicky, i feel for you, as Yash said she may just be looking for reassurance from you, but then again she may have felt obliged to wear for your sake and may generally want ur opinion. It come down to communication at the end of the day, but she clearly feel emotional, so best to be careful.

yes yuit of course i agree with you but thats exactly what i'm saying it is a matter of personal choice

my family keep telling me i'm the most unselfish person they know but i keep telling them i'm the most selfish person i know cos all i really care about is the salvation of my own soul because i choose to

i choose to do religious things purely for myself that makes me selfish

we should say for what things are and take responsibility for them and not try and put them on to God and think we are doing Him a favour

oh i'm so off this topic i'm ranting now

Sorry, i think i didn't phrase myself probably the first time round, what i meant was the people who felt displease with someone action, even though they knew that the person was doing for the sake of Allah swt and/or the Prophet (saw), aren't they truely the selfish one as the other person action is causing them no harm and it due to their own insecurity that they displease of the act in the first place. Because the women who wear the niqab, don't normally wear it out of personal choice. Why would they, it make no sense in today environment.

yuit now you're ranting

ok you're saying people who hinder others from Islamic stuff are selfish well yeah course they are

their selfish we're selfish everyones selfish even the one who wants to sleep whilst the other reads quran loudly

but all we have to do is put our hands up and say I am selfish i want to do this i dont care what the majority ruling is its my own decision. and not make it sound like some kind of special farz thing

[quote="seema*"]yuit now you're ranting

ok you're saying people who hinder others from Islamic stuff are selfish well yeah course they are

their selfish we're selfish everyones selfish even the one who wants to sleep whilst the other reads quran loudly

but all we have to do is put our hands up and say I am selfish i want to do this i dont care what the majority ruling is its my own decision. and not make it sound like some kind of special farz thing[/quote]

I wasn't ranting, I was simply giving my opinion, i sorry if it same across as such. Of course everything we do is selfish, i wasn't mentioning that, I was just commenting on the opinion of people who seem against the niqab, even though it doesn't affect them at all but as we seem to agree on most stuff apart from ur last sentence, i will leave it at that.

[quote="khan"]
I asked her -why? she said that -people look upon it in a bad way.
I asked -who looks upon it in a bad way? but got no answer.

I then asked her, -what she wants to do,.. she said she'll do what I tell her to do.

Now I don't want to take this decision,.

I got serious and asked her what she wants, and she got all upset and wanted to avoid the topic all together?

Have I missed something?
Am I supposed to read between the lines?
Do I have the right to tell her to take it off or keep it on?
It should be her decision right? I mean she not gonna enter Jannah with my permission..[/quote]

Khan, when my sister pulls that one, (its up to you) it usually means she wants something that you will probably disagree with or strongly don't want her to have etc.

Same meaning when I use it.

So I think you have to ask her what she thinks you want her to do and then go with the opposite if you can? 8) Be cool about it.

Thats the factually stuff over, now the speculative part; I think she thinks that you would be upset if sshe didn't wear it. I also thinks her lack of enthusiasm for it is ingrained in her from her family's - and possibly your too - views on niqab.
So while I think she doesn't want to wear it, I think that deep down she does, but doesn't have the guts too do it because of either/and her own fears and the tongue and eyes of her family folks.

However I think if you encourage her not too wear it, it will be all to easy for her to crush the feeling of wanting to wear it, and it will feel like a burden is relieved from her, but she might start to get sad because she (deep down) knows its something she want, but is (far more now because the practise of not wearing it) scared too, give rise to that feeling lest it bring her pain. However I maybe calling your Tiger of a wife timid, then again the above could be acurate...

...either make Du'a, be tactful and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala surely knows best.

okay thats $10, next please. 8) 😃

[quote]if your wife chose to wear the niqab herself, without your saying so, then maybe she got upset coz she wanted you to morally support her, against those family members who are giving her hassle? Maybe she just wants to hear you say damn right keep it on if that's what makes you happy.

Maybe she sees your response as indifferent and insensitive? [/quote]

[quote]
but then again she may have felt obliged to wear for your sake and may generally want ur opinion. [/quote]

you know what, i've thought about both.
also hear what yuit and seema & dawud are saying..

i mean, i can look at the situation very deeply, think of consequenses of each option. I really cannot say any of you are wrong in your personal choices as you've obviously thought it through, and have clearly backed up your preferences, [i]hijab/nikab/encouraged/discouraged[/i] type stuff.. i agree with all, but strongly agree with some more than others if you know what i mean.

to be prefectly honest.. the more u think into it, the deeper it gets.
I've decided to leave it upto Allah. After all it is to He we must answer to. If there are variables, then they should critically start with, 1. Allah s.w.t, 2. My submission to Him and 3) My deeds.. The other variables.. society, easing burdons, anything else, should be tactfully resolved as long as they do not compromise the criticals any more than they already are.

I obviously want her to keep wearing it, as its one of the things I admire about her. She already knows that,.. she also knows that I got a lotta love for the family, which is most prob the reason why she bought it up.

I think its best to leave it. deal with the issues as they come inshAllah 🙂

thanks for your thoughts.

[quote="yuit"] Because the women who wear the niqab, don't normally wear it out of personal choice. Why would they, it make no sense in today environment.[/quote]

obvioulsy people choose to cover their face out of personal choice

no one forces them :roll:

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][quote="yuit"] Because the women who wear the niqab, don't normally wear it out of personal choice. Why would they, it make no sense in today environment.[/quote]

obvioulsy people choose to cover their face out of personal choice

no one forces them :roll:[/quote]

That wasn't what I meant and u know it. :roll:

It just I ain't good with words, what i meant was that it wasn't a decision based on dunya and ease, but one taken to please Allah swt, you knew that already, so i don't know why i explaining again. :roll:

there no need to - :roll:

btw pleasing God is a personal choice aint it?

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]there no need to - :roll:

btw pleasing God is a personal choice aint it?[/quote]
:roll:

It is, that why I said, I wasn't good with word, i didn't mean personal choice in the way u mean it, I didn't think no one would pick me up on it, but then again I forgot about you :roll: But you you right about the statement you just said.