History of Islam in Europe

You —

Salaam

Have any of you watched this documentary (or is it a series) by Ragh Omar?

They are repeated on BBC3 quite regularly.

It is very interesting.

However even though he does portray it as a shining light, a beacon for the modern world to follow, I see it as a sad failure.

The Muslims controlled Spain, and sicily. They lost both. Alot through infighting.

There was even a deal ebtween the rulers of some of the muslims areas with the christians which helped in the fall of other muslim areas.

The Muslims had established 'conviventhia', where all religions practiced freely, but it was smashed by the invading armies.

The muslims were eradicated. The jews were also persecuted. Mosques were turned into cathedrals.

On the other side, there are still a group of christians in Spain, who speak arabic, and only allow new members if they can prove their ancestors were not muslims, as that was the agreement they had woth the muslims centuries ago.

Knowledge was brought to the west through the gates of spain and sicily.

Has anybody seen this documentary? what are your thoughts?

Forum

Dave — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 20:01

I am wary of these new "Islam and Western History" debates. There has been a lot of effort to erase the spotted history muslim civilization has with the West in the (however well meaning) interest of reducing tension.

Turning the Mezquita into a Cathedral was nothing compared to what happened in Hagia Sophia.

And one mustn't forget the fact that the muslims came to Sicily and Spain with the full intent of invasion and conversion.

As for the "free practice" of religion although it was a somewhat novel concept for the time, it was far from what people of diverse religious background enjoy in the west today. Christians were forbidden to build churchs or repair those that had fallen into neglect without a permit - that was almost never granted.

Dhimmitude is not remembered fondly.

You — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 20:22

Ofcourse it was not perfect. It was far from it.

There was alot of backstabbing, and fake tolerance.

Those buildings in paris (?)

Are rather good looking.

Hagia sophia? Is that the sathedral turned into a mosque, and then now a museum? (just did a quick look up).Is there a story burried there?

Has anyone else seen the programme?

Beast — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 20:24

[quote="Constantine"]Christians were forbidden to build churchs or repair those that had fallen into neglect without a permit - that was almost never granted.
[/quote]

In the Ottoman Empire this was hardly ever practiced.

Church renovations went on and the gov allowed it to happen.

You — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 20:27

[quote="irfghan"][quote="Constantine"]Christians were forbidden to build churchs or repair those that had fallen into neglect without a permit - that was almost never granted.
[/quote]

In the Ottoman Empire this was hardly ever practiced.

Church renovations went on and the gov allowed it to happen.[/quote]

Spain was separate from the ottoman empire was it not?

Aphrodite — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 20:37

[quote="Admin"]Ofcourse it was not perfect. It was far from it.

There was alot of backstabbing, and fake tolerance.

Those buildings in paris (?)

Are rather good looking.

Hagia sophia? Is that the sathedral turned into a mosque, and then now a museum? (just did a quick look up).Is there a story burried there?

Has anyone else seen the programme?[/quote]

[img]http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/hagiasophialast.jpg[/img]

[b] "Hagia Sophia stands on the site of an earlier basilican church erected by Constantius II in 360, some 30 years after Byzantium had become the capital of the Roman Empire. This church was burned in 404 and rebuilt by Theodosius II in 415, only to be again destroyed by fire in 532. The present structure, which is entirely fireproof, was built in 532-37 by Emperor Justinian from designs of his imperial architects Anthemius of Tralles and Isidorus of Miletus . As a result of severe earthquakes, the dome collapsed in 558, but it was rebuilt by 563 on a somewhat higher curve.

With the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453, Hagia Sophia became a mosque, and in subsequent years all the interior figure mosaics were obscured under coatings of plaster and painted ornament; most of the Christian symbols elsewhere were obliterated. The four slender minarets, which rise so strikingly at the outer corners of the structure, were added singly and at different times; the crescent supplanted the cross on the summit of the dome, and the altar and the pulpit were replaced by the customary Muslim furnishings. "[/b]
-------------------------------------
[b]"Many of the 600 Greek icons that were stored in the Hagia Sophia _ once the central shrine of Greek Orthodoxy - have been damaged due to humidity and neglect, an official said Wednesday.

The icons were brought to the Hagia Sophia from throughout Turkey for storage after the sixth century church was converted into a museum in 1935. The icons in the storage room date from the 16th century to the 18th century, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity"[/b].

Beast — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 21:04

[quote="Aphrodite"]Isn't the Suleymania Mosque supposed to be an exact symmetrical copy of the Hagia Sophia?[/quote]

The Suleymaniye, the Sultanahmet, and some of the other Ottoman imperial mosques in Istanbul are roughly based on the Haghia Sophia (but this is debatable).

But no exact symmetry.

Sirus — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 21:56

Irfgy....remember that Islamic Art and Architecture book that the guy at the stall said he would give me?

well i got it today (bloody hard carrying that around all day!)..........and its got loadza awesome mosques and buildings created all over the world by diffrent peoples, including the one you lot have povided pics of

its a top book...also got the Sacred Trust book..... 😃

Beast — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 22:03

[quote="Darth V-Hayder"]Irfgy....remember that Islamic Art and Architecture book that the guy at the stall said he would give me?
[/quote]

What is it called?

Sirus — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 22:07

Islam....Art & Architecture!!!

it was the one where he said it was the last one left, and the guy infront took it b4 me....he went 2 the car 2 see if he had one but didnt

Beast — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 22:10

[quote="Darth V-Hayder"]Islam....Art & Architecture!!!

it was the one where he said it was the last one left, and the guy infront took it b4 me....he went 2 the car 2 see if he had one but didnt[/quote]

I remember... that big hefty one.

Sirus — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 22:11

Yup....i had to carry around all day at uni as well :shock:

its really good tho....i recommend it to everyone interested in Islamic History

Dave — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 23:08

[quote="irfghan"][quote="Constantine"]Christians were forbidden to build churchs or repair those that had fallen into neglect without a permit - that was almost never granted.
[/quote]

In the Ottoman Empire this was hardly ever practiced.

Church renovations went on and the gov allowed it to happen.[/quote]

In byzantium sure - on the outer bounds of the empire definitely not. Most of the churches along the border with Hungary were anihilated by Emperor Mehmet II "the Conqueror" by many accounts a self absorbed craven homosexual, especially fond if his "close friend" Radu the Handsome

There was also the infamous blood tax by which Christian children were stripped from their homes and sent to fight in the Janisary corps as slaves to the Emperor.

Hagia Sophia was desecrated and turned into a Mosque - as were "little hagia sophia" and other major eastern orthodox cathedrals.

Have no illusions the Muslim Empires were empires in the truest most hated senses of the world - they survived on subjegation and cruelty, especially in Eastern Europe.

It's hypocritical to snear at the Spanish treatment of Muslims after the reconquest of their native lands, whilst the Turks were busy ravaging foreign homes.

You — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 23:15

The ottomon empire was rather ruthless alot of the time.

Have you read up on secession and the hareems?

Very brutal.

everyone who could make a claim to the thrown, bar one would be killed. Just to preserve the peace.

Omrow — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 23:48

Salam

Is it true that Prophet Muhammad predicted the Muslims will take Rome ?

And does that means/include Vatican ?

Omrow

Dawud — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 23:50

[quote="Constantine"]

There was also the infamous blood tax by which Christian children were stripped from their homes and sent to fight in the Janisary corps as slaves to the Emperor.
[/quote]

Huh? I was under the impression that they were brain washed at an early age so that they were devoted to and loved the emporer, and were given lots of honour by the emporer to the extent where muslims would pretend to be christinan in the hope that their children would be 'recruited' to the Janisaries.

Still kidnapping is kidnapping no matter what is done afterwards.

You — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 23:51

Not as far as I know.

However during the war between the romans and the persians, the romans were winning.

A verse was revealed 'Rome has been defeated'. People laughed at the muslims.

You know. They finally thought they found an error in the revelations.

However soon after, the Persians counter attacked against the roman empire, defeating them.

Dave — Tue, 20 Sep 2005 - 23:59

[quote="Dawud"][quote="Constantine"]

There was also the infamous blood tax by which Christian children were stripped from their homes and sent to fight in the Janisary corps as slaves to the Emperor.
[/quote]

Huh? I was under the impression that they were brain washed at an early age so that they were devoted to and loved the emporer, and were given lots of honour by the emporer to the extent where muslims would pretend to be christinan in the hope that their children would be 'recruited' to the Janisaries.

Still kidnapping is kidnapping no matter what is done afterwards.[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

They evolved over time but for most of their history involved taking Christian children against their will and the wills of their families and forcing them to fight against other Christians.

Dave — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 00:00

[quote="Omrow"]Salam

Is it true that Prophet Muhammad predicted the Muslims will take Rome ?

And does that means/include Vatican ?

Omrow[/quote]

The Lombards weren't Muslim.

Beast — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 09:50

[quote="Constantine"]Most of the churches along the border with Hungary were anihilated by Emperor Mehmet II "the Conqueror" by many accounts a self absorbed craven homosexual, especially fond if his "close friend" Radu the Handsome
[/quote]

Where did you get this from?

[quote="Constantine"]
There was also the infamous blood tax by which Christian children were stripped from their homes and sent to fight in the Janisary corps as slaves to the Emperor.
[/quote]

Those deemed not fit enough to fight were made to work in the bureaucracy.