Salaam
Have any of you watched this documentary (or is it a series) by Ragh Omar?
They are repeated on BBC3 quite regularly.
It is very interesting.
However even though he does portray it as a shining light, a beacon for the modern world to follow, I see it as a sad failure.
The Muslims controlled Spain, and sicily. They lost both. Alot through infighting.
There was even a deal ebtween the rulers of some of the muslims areas with the christians which helped in the fall of other muslim areas.
The Muslims had established 'conviventhia', where all religions practiced freely, but it was smashed by the invading armies.
The muslims were eradicated. The jews were also persecuted. Mosques were turned into cathedrals.
On the other side, there are still a group of christians in Spain, who speak arabic, and only allow new members if they can prove their ancestors were not muslims, as that was the agreement they had woth the muslims centuries ago.
Knowledge was brought to the west through the gates of spain and sicily.
Has anybody seen this documentary? what are your thoughts?
I am wary of these new "Islam and Western History" debates. There has been a lot of effort to erase the spotted history muslim civilization has with the West in the (however well meaning) interest of reducing tension.
Turning the Mezquita into a Cathedral was nothing compared to what happened in Hagia Sophia.
And one mustn't forget the fact that the muslims came to Sicily and Spain with the full intent of invasion and conversion.
As for the "free practice" of religion although it was a somewhat novel concept for the time, it was far from what people of diverse religious background enjoy in the west today. Christians were forbidden to build churchs or repair those that had fallen into neglect without a permit - that was almost never granted.
Dhimmitude is not remembered fondly.
This was the only thing I managed to download with that SunniTorrent site.
The Institute du Monde Arabe building in Paris is fantastic. Great example of Islamic architecture.
[img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6535/000045801mu.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/1061/arabinstitutea007433nw.jpg[/img]
And the Paris mosque. I was amazed.
[img]http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/3140/103w0ik.jpg[/img]
Ofcourse it was not perfect. It was far from it.
There was alot of backstabbing, and fake tolerance.
Those buildings in paris (?)
Are rather good looking.
Hagia sophia? Is that the sathedral turned into a mosque, and then now a museum? (just did a quick look up).Is there a story burried there?
Has anyone else seen the programme?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
In the Ottoman Empire this was hardly ever practiced.
Church renovations went on and the gov allowed it to happen.
Spain was separate from the ottoman empire was it not?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Yep.
[img]http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/hagiasophialast.jpg[/img]
[b] "Hagia Sophia stands on the site of an earlier basilican church erected by Constantius II in 360, some 30 years after Byzantium had become the capital of the Roman Empire. This church was burned in 404 and rebuilt by Theodosius II in 415, only to be again destroyed by fire in 532. The present structure, which is entirely fireproof, was built in 532-37 by Emperor Justinian from designs of his imperial architects Anthemius of Tralles and Isidorus of Miletus . As a result of severe earthquakes, the dome collapsed in 558, but it was rebuilt by 563 on a somewhat higher curve.
With the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453, Hagia Sophia became a mosque, and in subsequent years all the interior figure mosaics were obscured under coatings of plaster and painted ornament; most of the Christian symbols elsewhere were obliterated. The four slender minarets, which rise so strikingly at the outer corners of the structure, were added singly and at different times; the crescent supplanted the cross on the summit of the dome, and the altar and the pulpit were replaced by the customary Muslim furnishings. "[/b]
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[b]"Many of the 600 Greek icons that were stored in the Hagia Sophia _ once the central shrine of Greek Orthodoxy - have been damaged due to humidity and neglect, an official said Wednesday.
The icons were brought to the Hagia Sophia from throughout Turkey for storage after the sixth century church was converted into a museum in 1935. The icons in the storage room date from the 16th century to the 18th century, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity"[/b].
~Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.~
"God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I am so far behind that I will never die" ~ Bill Watterson
lol that drawing ignores the minarets.
[img]http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/9333/sophia18oc.jpg[/img]
Isn't the Suleymania Mosque supposed to be an exact symmetrical copy of the Hagia Sophia?
~Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.~
"God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I am so far behind that I will never die" ~ Bill Watterson
The Suleymaniye, the Sultanahmet, and some of the other Ottoman imperial mosques in Istanbul are roughly based on the Haghia Sophia (but this is debatable).
But no exact symmetry.
Irfgy....remember that Islamic Art and Architecture book that the guy at the stall said he would give me?
well i got it today (bloody hard carrying that around all day!)..........and its got loadza awesome mosques and buildings created all over the world by diffrent peoples, including the one you lot have povided pics of
its a top book...also got the Sacred Trust book.....
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
What is it called?
Islam....Art & Architecture!!!
it was the one where he said it was the last one left, and the guy infront took it b4 me....he went 2 the car 2 see if he had one but didnt
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
I remember... that big hefty one.
Yup....i had to carry around all day at uni as well :shock:
its really good tho....i recommend it to everyone interested in Islamic History
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
In byzantium sure - on the outer bounds of the empire definitely not. Most of the churches along the border with Hungary were anihilated by Emperor Mehmet II "the Conqueror" by many accounts a self absorbed craven homosexual, especially fond if his "close friend" Radu the Handsome
There was also the infamous blood tax by which Christian children were stripped from their homes and sent to fight in the Janisary corps as slaves to the Emperor.
Hagia Sophia was desecrated and turned into a Mosque - as were "little hagia sophia" and other major eastern orthodox cathedrals.
Have no illusions the Muslim Empires were empires in the truest most hated senses of the world - they survived on subjegation and cruelty, especially in Eastern Europe.
It's hypocritical to snear at the Spanish treatment of Muslims after the reconquest of their native lands, whilst the Turks were busy ravaging foreign homes.
The ottomon empire was rather ruthless alot of the time.
Have you read up on secession and the hareems?
Very brutal.
everyone who could make a claim to the thrown, bar one would be killed. Just to preserve the peace.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salam
Is it true that Prophet Muhammad predicted the Muslims will take Rome ?
And does that means/include Vatican ?
Omrow
Huh? I was under the impression that they were brain washed at an early age so that they were devoted to and loved the emporer, and were given lots of honour by the emporer to the extent where muslims would pretend to be christinan in the hope that their children would be 'recruited' to the Janisaries.
Still kidnapping is kidnapping no matter what is done afterwards.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Not as far as I know.
However during the war between the romans and the persians, the romans were winning.
A verse was revealed 'Rome has been defeated'. People laughed at the muslims.
You know. They finally thought they found an error in the revelations.
However soon after, the Persians counter attacked against the roman empire, defeating them.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
They evolved over time but for most of their history involved taking Christian children against their will and the wills of their families and forcing them to fight against other Christians.
The Lombards weren't Muslim.
Where did you get this from?
Those deemed not fit enough to fight were made to work in the bureaucracy.