Can British Muslims and Jews get along and still have divergent political beliefs?

100 —

Forum

100 — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 01:33

Hi! I got too annoyed arguing with Ging Ging.

Alif-Aleph isn't my initiative, more fool me, if you look around the site you'll see its been up and running a while. Today was the first time I came across the website so I had to swallow my pride and share it here.

Omrow, its probably a sign of openness that you don't see the question. It's gauging determination, pessismism and optimism. So either, in spite of difficulties our cultures will have strong ties or they won't, or there are no real difficulties. I started with 'yes regardless', because I have experienced people who would like it to go wrong, but they have not persuaded me to forget everyone else or become resigned.

You — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 18:43

I myself do not see a point behund Alif-Aleph.

We all know we have differences.

We all know that you cannot judge everyone by a few (or even alot) people.

We all know the biggest sticking point is Israel.

Now some will have good relations, others will not. I do not see what a cheerleader can or will do.

100 — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 19:29

Admin,

You have been running a website and busying yourself with public projects for a while that I believe confront you with the fact that Jews and Muslims and others live here together and can be apart or together as part of the fabric of a proud United Kingdom. I believe you are fairly exceptional in that regard and could contribute a lot to an organisation like Alif-Aleph.

It is one-sided to maintain that Israel is the sticking point. To me the sticking point is slander and isolation.

You — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 19:38

Israel IS the sticking point.

We admire the fact that the jewish community is far more organised than us. It is far more effective.

The jewish faith is a real faith, though slightly corrupted.

The sticking point IS Israel.

We do not tolerate Israel. You do not tolerate our intolerance of Israel.

Apart from that everything is kosher. We can eat most each other's foods. We both believe in god. We have other differences, but they are only minor. Differences everyone lives with.

I am not against having better relations. That is needed. They can be better. However in regards to israel both sides need to agree to disagree. Massively.

Denying israel as a sticking point is like saying Iraq had nothing with the terrorism in the UK.

100 — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 22:03

Admin,

I am not denying you that. But for some reason you do not see the value in what I have said. I stick by it.

Much of the common Muslim information about Jews is disgusting slander that justifies responding to your 'sticking points' with a good many more sticking points. The sticking point for Israel is terrorism and refusal to acknowledge it's existence. The sticking point for Jews is slander. Saying the sticking point is Israel gives no hope.

Dave — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 22:06

Yea i've noticed that. A lot of the slander muslims and jews believe about each other is derived from Israel. The disagreement on Israel is prolly not gonna go away but some of the detritus that has been cluttering things up so well over the last 30 years can and should definitely be swept away.

You wouldn't believe the stuff some of my friends think about jews and muslims.

Almost comical if they weren't serious

You — Wed, 21 Sep 2005 - 22:14

Yes there is alot of slander. But that is life.

That can mostly be overcome.

Israel is a whole other ball game. Consider you with your good muslim pal, enjoying a meal. Turn on the TV, an its Israel/Palestine. Either you both lie to each other, or you resort to fisticuffs. Or acknowledge each others position, saying the other is wrong, but hey what the heck.

There is no compromise on this issue. On either side.

What do I not see value in? You are being too subtle for me.

judda — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 09:23

i got loads of jewish friends and israil makes no bloody difference. this is gods world, not ours, we are only here for a short time, time is something we lack, fighting for land is a waste of time and only leads to misery or short-term victory b4 the next big problem arrives. it wud be great if the land was shared but that is never gonna happen. my jewish mates are all from different nationalities and only 2 are from israil.

100 i remember u doin a thread on the old forum which was called "jews" and u were asking what jews do. I didn't get a chance to reply so i is gonna reply now.

Jews.
1. believe god is weak (why?)
2. Break wine glasses on weddings (why?)
3. Stone women who commit adultery to death (why?)
4. Don't like talking to muslims about thier religion (why?)
5. R not allowed to touch thier wives when they is on thier periods (why?)
6. Them candels look nice (but y? candels are hazerdes)
7. eat funny looking bread (why?)
8. Think wine is a gift from god, put it in ur cooking at then serve it to the muslims (why?)

BUT WHY????

Dave — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 14:06

100 isnt around but I can take a stab at some of em, i'm sure he'll correctly if i'm wrong.

1. The Jews believe God is all powerful - as well they should, their very existence and identity is fully dependent upon him. He took them out of slavery in Egypt, punished them by keeping them lost in a very large desert for 40 years - but allowed them to somehow survive, he gave them a homeland (these are former slaves remember), and continued to reward and punish them all throughout history.

Must feel somewhat micromanaged to be a Jew... I can think of no other people on this planet that fully understand just how omnipotent God is.

2. They step on the glass at weddings to symbolize the destruction of the temple.

3. I believe it is Leviticus that says they are to stone adulterers, not up on talmud though so I dunno what their position (if changed at all) is today.

4. ...never met a Jew who was reluctant to talk about Judaism with anybody - maybe thats a British thing, interesting people actually - maybe you should hang out with more Orthodox Jews. You can learn a lot from em.

5. Never heard that before - but it just sounds humane, I mean seriously girls got the short end of the stick on biology when it comes to that.

6. Dunno about candles

7. Mazza is delicious - its to do with the fact all they had when they were getting ready to leave egypt was unleavened bread. I think its now part of the passover celebration.

8. Shouldnt be a problem actually, the problem with wine for islam is alcohol I think, the alcohol actually gets burned out when used in cooking thus you just get the taste of 20 year old grape juice. Its a fantastic catalyst in cooking because it burns so quickly and retains the most taste. (There's a book called the Chemistry of Cooking which goes into that in a little more depth)

judda — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 14:39

[quote="Constantine"]
1. The Jews believe God is all powerful - as well they should, their very existence and identity is fully dependent upon him. He took them out of slavery in Egypt, punished them by keeping them lost in a very large desert for 40 years - but allowed them to somehow survive, he gave them a homeland (these are former slaves remember), and continued to reward and punish them all throughout history.

Must feel somewhat micromanaged to be a Jew... I can think of no other people on this planet that fully understand just how omnipotent God is.
[/quote]

well i did hear two of mi jewish mates say that god is weak coz thats y this world is so flawed.

[quote="Constantine"]4. ...never met a Jew who was reluctant to talk about Judaism with anybody - maybe thats a British thing, interesting people actually - maybe you should hang out with more Orthodox Jews. You can learn a lot from em.
[/quote]

they prolly don't wanna talk about it to me, they know what i am like with mi own religion.

[quote="Constantine"]5. Never heard that before - but it just sounds [b]humane[/b], I mean seriously girls got the short end of the stick on biology when it comes to that.
[/quote]

lol u mean [b]in[/b]humane right?

100 — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 14:47

Dave thanks! Hope you don't mind if some of my answers simply reiterate yours.

Judda,

Another time please feel free to ask for more detail, and I can look things up where my answers are brief or incomplete.

1. We do not believe God is weak. How have you come to that?
2. Even when celebrating our extravagance has limits. The crushed wine glass remoinds us of the loss of the temple. On a similar theme, on Passover we read the Haggadah, texts about the exodus from Egypt, with our families before we eat. It takes a long time. As we recite each of the ten plagues visited upon the Pharoah we take with our finger a drop of wine from our glass, so one for every plague. This is because we are sorrowful even at the hardship of our enemies. We are always to consider the big picture.
3. We do not have a temple and a supreme religious court, so we do not pass biblical punishments. It is a good question and I could spend many hours with many Rabbis learning about these punishments, but ftr they are not observed. I do not study much on the matter these days but I will make a point of it when I am with my family for the upcoming festivals. Please feel free to remind me.
4. Religious Jews cannot discuss Torah with those who are not of goodwill. This is measured by observing basic universal, humanitarian laws given to Noah and believing in God. I follow Rambam (Maimonedes) who says Muslims are upright monotheists and we can discuss Torah with them. In any case, Jews can talk more broadly about anything they like within the bounds of responsible conversation, ie honest and not offensive or stirring. Conversion is welcomed but not sought, and salvation is possible without becoming Jewish, if you are essentially upright.
5. Good question. 🙂 You are basically correct. ftr these laws are always overridden if health is at stake. Please Google or ask a rabbi.
6. Candles have lots of symbolic value and I could wax lyrical but I'm being fast, must work. Come off it.
7. Challah loaves were huge loaves prepared in the temple. We still make challah, although it is not necessary if the idea is to begin a meal with bread. Staple food and drinks are considered miraculous and holy. Matzah (dry flat bread, quickly made from flour and water), was all the Israelites had time for when they left Egypt. It keeps well. On Passover we eat it in commemoration, and cannot eat any bread made with yeast. After a while it gets annoying, which is part of the point - we hold it aloft on the two seder nights and proclaim it 'the bread of our affliction'. It sure is. I make a very nice heimishe meal with the leftover matza, called matza brau, which involves soaking the matza, chucking in some eggs and frying it. I top it with loads of sugar and cinnamon.
8. What on earth is that about serving wine to Muslims? There is a dish on Passover which I can think of that contains wine and I guess if you have been served it you should have been warned, would have been an innocent oversight.

Omrow,

I daresay the answer is 'Yes in my experience'.

Dave — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 14:54

[quote="Judda"]well i did hear two of mi jewish mates say that god is weak coz thats y this world is so flawed.[/quote]

lol obviously they were being blasphemous.

[quote="Judda"]they prolly don't wanna talk about it to me, they know what i am like with mi own religion.[/quote]

True, it's a matter of politeness not to constantly irritate somebody with their religious views when it has been made clear that you are not interested in hearing.

I think the forum's tried to intimate that to you a couple times...

[quote="Judda"]lol u mean [b]in[/b]humane right?[/quote]

...have you ever met a girl during that time of month?

They don't [i]want[/i] to be touched, bothered, talked to, irritated, agitated, moved, disoriented, or called.

That's a lesson guys learn the hard way.

lol that's just divine wisdom.

judda — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 15:03

intersting stuff 😃 !

[quote="100"]1. We do not believe God is weak. How have you come to that?
[/quote]

one of my Jewish mates had a book written by a rabbi (cannot remember the rabbis name) and he said something like "[i]we must make the most of this life because this is the only one we may have, god wants good stuff to happen to good people but sometimes he cannot do it, he is not strong enough[/i]"

I'll ask mi mate what the rabbis name was and what the book was called coz i cannot remember....

100 — Thu, 22 Sep 2005 - 17:43

Judda, thanks for checking. Harold Kushner is a conservative rabbi. I don't have an issue with that but it gives him a lot more leeway on unorthodox interpretations.

One word we use a lot for God is 'the Almighty'.

My education is that we all have free will, and God doesn't intercede much, and that's how come bad things happen to good people. So if that really is his exact wording I do take issue with it but c'est la vie. Taking life from the position that anything can happen and I have free will, basically informs my every move.

judda — Fri, 23 Sep 2005 - 09:51

I read a book called "To pray as a Jew" which was a guide to the prayer book and the synagogue service / Hayim Halevy Donin written by Donin, Hayim. In the book I found a lengthy explanation of the Prayers as done by the ancient Jews and few of the contemporary Jews. In this book the author put diagrams showing the movement and positions during the prayer. They are very similar to salat/contact prayers as performed by muslims. It is also interesting to learn from this book that the prayers of the Jews involve wash before the prayers, (like Wudu for Muslims), and the call for Prayers (like the Azan for the Muslims). The book was talking about early jews but do u still pray like that today? Did u think Rabbi Judah was correct in saying that u couldn't add a single word to the prayers because it breaks the "Mathamatically composed literature" of the prayers? or don't u believe in the " Mathamatically composed literature" in the prayers?