Amnesty: Rape girl, 13, killed for adultery

[quote=The Lamp][quote=MuslimBro][quote=1R4M][quote=Courage]Under Sharia, if I'm correct, confessions can reduce the punishment significantly.[/quote]

well said!!!

n besides

stoning to death
requires 4 witnesses
its like Sheikh Ibrahim said on the Let's Talk Show
how perversed would a society have to become in order to witness somethin like that
and the stoning to death with 4 witnesses was introduced to REDUCE deathe by stoning

clearly people are still ignorant
[/quote]
What d'ya mean by well said?

The punishment of fornication or adultery can be initiated by a confession aswell.[/quote]

"He who shows no mercy, will get no mercy." Doesn't that sound familiar to you?
[/quote]
Is that what you normally do, just quote a random verse.

You don't get my post do you.

Well
It's not upto us lay people to suddenly decide the exact jurisdiction on such matters
but
I personally beleive Islam is a peaceful religion
and not one that would sanction stoning to death for something like adultery
if that was true, then MANY people would have been dead by now!
I'm not condoning adultery, I think it's one of the vilest things ever, but to stone someone to death for it, I don't think it's right
castration perhaps... no I'm jokin! ... ish...

Didn't ANYONE listen to Sheikh Ibrahim on the Let's Talk Show???

I'm not condoning adultery, I think it's one of the vilest things ever, but to stone someone to death for it, I don't think it's right

Now that is slippery ground... You can find a few hadith where stoning was used as the punishment for adultery.

By saying that such a punishment is wrong, you are also saying that the actions encouraged in those ahadith are wrong.

Be careful with your words.

[quote=You]but how can we argue that they were not met when we do not even know how old the person was and whether she had claimed rape or not?!?

Yes, in an ideal world there would be no need for even a legitimate execution, but we are not in an ideal world.

We have no idea if the execution was due to social circumstances, religious or even a political statement of intent.

A blanket "its tough to meet hudood standards so she should not have been punished as such" is simply not a good argument.

There are plenty of good arguments against what happened, but that is not one of them.[/quote]

Not punishing and going to the total top are fairly different, in my opinion. Like it or not, hudood has been abused so often.

And MuslimBro: I was saying it's part of the Sharia to be merciful. The emphasis is on mercy and helping people to change ie. rehabilitation. And it really doesn't help if it could be interpreted as though you're defending what happened.

Not punishing and going to the total top are fairly different, in my opinion.

But how can it be going on the top when the punishment is within the limits proscribed?

Yes, its sad that someone received the death penalty. I also felt a tinge of sadness when I read the the Bali bombers had been executed - and they were mass murderers. It is probably a good thing to not want people to die. However, in some instances, it can be the right course of action.

We need to know what happened before attempting to make a solid judgement call. If the case was as originally suggested (13 year old raped), maybe the death penalty for the people who gave the original punishment?

Somalia is desensitised to violence. Unfortunately this means death for the people living there where it would mean far less if the people were living elsewhere.

Or is it? Yeah I know that sometimes it could be the best thing to do. But very rearley, nowadays it's used too often. Plus if there is something only to be used as a last resort then surely using that too readily is plain incompetence or corruption.

[quote=LilSis]I read of another case where a young girl around 12/13 was left alone in Saudi with her older brother whilst her parents went away for the weekend. Her brother invited a bunch of guys around and they spent the whole evening smoking weed, drinking alcohol and listening to loud music and when the girl came down to complain of the noise, her brothers friends, in the state of intoxication, all attacked and raped her; her brother meanwhile was unconsious in the bathroom. The next day, when the guys found out who the girl really was they came out with the story that she seduced them and came on to them and that they didnt really have a choice. her brother backed his friends up as he didnt want the islamic authorities to know that he was taking illegal drugs and drinking alcohol and even her own father believed his son and his friends over his daughter.. the girl also fell pregnant from the attack and under saudi law the girl was not allowed to be stoned whilst expecting so she spent her pregnancy locked up and was taken to the hospital in shackles and after she gave birth, the baby was taken away from her and she was stoned to death.[/quote]

Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

Where did you read of this case?

[quote=The Lamp]Like Muhammad (pbuh) said: "He who shows no mercy, will get no mercy.
"It's better to make a mistake in forgiving/being lenient than punishing/being harsh."
(Tirmidhi.)[/quote]

Thats fantastic... i mite steal that 😃

The above article is sickening. I dunno whose, worse the rapist or the people who stoned the poor girl.

[quote=The Lamp]And MuslimBro: I was saying it's part of the Sharia to be merciful. The emphasis is on mercy and helping people to change ie. rehabilitation. And it really doesn't help if it could be interpreted as though you're defending what happened.[/quote]
If all the conditions are met and a person is found guilty of adultery, there is no chance of rehabilitation, they have to pay the price. They should have thought of it before they did their business. The punishment which is handed out is upto the Qadi as they are knowledgeable in this field.

Btw I am not defending what has happened.... if it did really happen according to what the report says.

[quote=MuslimBro][quote=The Lamp]And MuslimBro: I was saying it's part of the Sharia to be merciful. The emphasis is on mercy and helping people to change ie. rehabilitation. And it really doesn't help if it could be interpreted as though you're defending what happened.[/quote]
If all the conditions are met and a person is found guilty of adultery, there is no chance of rehabilitation, they have to pay the price. They should have thought of it before they did their business. The punishment which is handed out is upto the Qadi as they are knowledgeable in this field.

Btw I am not defending what has happened.... if it did really happen according to what the report says.[/quote]

If all the conditions are met, ie. guilty of commiting adultery, caught by four ultra-reliable witnesses and they still think they're absolutely right. I don't think you can generalise and say that there is no chance of rehabilitation. Remember Umar bin Al Khatab? People would have said that he had no chance of changing. Look what happened! Mate, your way of thinking doesn't seem to be reasonable, people make mistakes, punishing is one thing, whereas going to the maximum penalty is something totally different.
If you're really not defending what happened then it would be nice to hear you denounce it every now and then.

[quote=The Lamp][quote=MuslimBro][quote=The Lamp]And MuslimBro: I was saying it's part of the Sharia to be merciful. The emphasis is on mercy and helping people to change ie. rehabilitation. And it really doesn't help if it could be interpreted as though you're defending what happened.[/quote]
If all the conditions are met and a person is found guilty of adultery, there is no chance of rehabilitation, they have to pay the price. They should have thought of it before they did their business. The punishment which is handed out is upto the Qadi as they are knowledgeable in this field.

Btw I am not defending what has happened.... if it did really happen according to what the report says.[/quote]

If all the conditions are met, ie. guilty of commiting adultery, caught by four ultra-reliable witnesses and they still think they're absolutely right. I don't think you can generalise and say that there is no chance of rehabilitation. Remember Umar bin Al Khatab? People would have said that he had no chance of changing. Look what happened! Mate, your way of thinking doesn't seem to be reasonable, people make mistakes, punishing is one thing, whereas going to the maximum penalty is something totally different.
If you're really not defending what happened then it would be nice to hear you denounce it every now and then.[/quote]

I agree 100% Lamp

And that is why neither of you would be any good as a judge.

Its not about rehabilitation - its about giving the ordained punishment - no matter if you feel otherwise.

Remember Umr Ibn Al Khattab (ra)? His son (ra) was flogged as punishment for a crime and he died while being flogged.

[quote=The Lamp][quote=MuslimBro][quote=The Lamp]And MuslimBro: I was saying it's part of the Sharia to be merciful. The emphasis is on mercy and helping people to change ie. rehabilitation. And it really doesn't help if it could be interpreted as though you're defending what happened.[/quote]
If all the conditions are met and a person is found guilty of adultery, there is no chance of rehabilitation, they have to pay the price. They should have thought of it before they did their business. The punishment which is handed out is upto the Qadi as they are knowledgeable in this field.

Btw I am not defending what has happened.... if it did really happen according to what the report says.[/quote]

If all the conditions are met, ie. guilty of commiting adultery, caught by four ultra-reliable witnesses and they still think they're absolutely right. I don't think you can generalise and say that there is no chance of rehabilitation. Remember Umar bin Al Khatab? People would have said that he had no chance of changing. Look what happened! Mate, your way of thinking doesn't seem to be reasonable, people make mistakes, punishing is one thing, whereas going to the maximum penalty is something totally different.
If you're really not defending what happened then it would be nice to hear you denounce it every now and then.[/quote]
I'm not talking about whether a person can be rehabilitated or not.

If they are found guilty then the qadi hands out the punishment. Fortunately hudood law is not like US law, as You described nicely.

[quote=MuslimBro]If they are found guilty then the qadi hands out the punishment.[/quote]

Thats right, but regarding rehabilitation, one should understand the philosophy oif the hudood punishments. They are not extensive to cover any number of crimes, they cover only a few crimes. They are painful to bear.
The philosophy behind them is that they are 'preventative' punishments, meaning that they exist as a strong deterant against crime rather than for their ownsake. If you do the crime, you'll get the time, but thats not the point of hudood. The point is that you loose your nerve when considering doing something bad.

[quote=You]And that is why neither of you would be any good as a judge.

Its not about rehabilitation - its about giving the ordained punishment - no matter if you feel otherwise.

Remember Umr Ibn Al Khattab (ra)? His son (ra) was flogged as punishment for a crime and he died while being flogged.[/quote]

The Sharia isn't about being brutal, it's about getting people to change and getting them to think twice before doing something they shouldn't be. Yet having the conditions so high to promote leniency but taking the buzz out of commiting the crimes.
It's ironic that you say Ibn Umar RA (May Allah be pleased with him).
The Qadis in this day and age have proven to be out of touch with reality, generally though not all of them. They aren't above criticism and shouldn't be treated like such.
The reason why so many people convert to Islam is not because they see Islam as brutal, it's becasue they see Islam as giving them the motivation to change. So think.....

[quote=Dawud][quote=MuslimBro]If they are found guilty then the qadi hands out the punishment.[/quote]

Thats right, but regarding rehabilitation, one should understand the philosophy oif the hudood punishments. They are not extensive to cover any number of crimes, they cover only a few crimes. They are painful to bear.
The philosophy behind them is that they are 'preventative' punishments, meaning that they exist as a strong deterant against crime rather than for their ownsake. If you do the crime, you'll get the time, but thats not the point of hudood. The point is that you loose your nerve when considering doing something bad.[/quote]
Ofcourse. The punishment should deter the person from committing the crime in the first place. But if it doesn't and the person is punished, then it also acts as a deterrent to other people.

And then once again we forget that Islam isn't about being brutal, it is about consensus and getting people to change. If that was Islam then Islam would probably be gone by now, Cruel and harsh Regimes never last, which is why the regimes and not Islam have died.

Islam is not a social club. It is NOT about consensus.

Isn't their a hadith that says that the Prophet ﷺ said he would cut off Fatima's (ra) hand if she was caught stealing?

Well you can't force Islam on people There is no compulsion in religion, compulsion and religion are incompatible.

Oh by the way Yaqub: Don't take my word here, but I would imagine that applies when she's been caught and found guilty and EVERY single condition has been fulfilled. No one is above the law.

[quote=The Lamp]No one is above the law.[/quote]

Unless the judge feels compassionate...

[quote=The Lamp]Well you can't force Islam on people There is no compulsion in religion, compulsion and religion are incompatible.[/quote]
You do know a qadi can sentence a person to death for not praying... if all the conditions have been met ofcourse.

[quote=The Lamp]Oh by the way Yaqub: Don't take my word here, but I would imagine that applies when she's been caught and found guilty and EVERY single condition has been fulfilled. No one is above the law.[/quote]
You seem to make it like there's hundreds of conditions, there's not many.

[quote=MuslimBro]
You do know a qadi can sentence a person to death for not praying... if all the conditions have been met ofcourse.
[/quote]

what happened to free will and freedom of choice

Besides
why is everyone here acting as tho they're experts and scholars
we're not

[quote=1R4M]Besides
why is everyone here acting as tho they're experts and scholars
we're not
[/quote]

So how are you advocating lenience?

[quote=1R4M][quote=MuslimBro]
You do know a qadi can sentence a person to death for not praying... if all the conditions have been met ofcourse.
[/quote]
what happened to free will and freedom of choice[/quote]
Some companions (ra) held the view that persistent neglect of prayer amounts to apostasy. They did not consider apostasy to any other sin except leaving out prayer.

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal even held the view that a person who leaves prayer and dies in that state, should not be given a funeral service and nor should they be buried in a Muslim graveyard.

Neglecting prayer is not a minor thing.

the prophet ﷺ said who ever misses a prayer intentionally has commited kufr

May Allah (swt) forgive us all!

AMEEN!!

[quote=MuslimBro][quote=The Lamp]Well you can't force Islam on people There is no compulsion in religion, compulsion and religion are incompatible.[/quote]
You do know a qadi can sentence a person to death for not praying... if all the conditions have been met ofcourse. [/quote]

OK MuslimBro, you can stop playing around now. We are under the obligation to not push people away from Islam, and not force people to pray. Becasue religion and compulsion are incompatible.

[quote=The Lamp]Oh by the way Yaqub: Don't take my word here, but I would imagine that applies when she's been caught and found guilty and EVERY single condition has been fulfilled. No one is above the law.[/quote]
You seem to make it like there's hundreds of conditions, there's not many.[/quote]

There are high safeguards and conditions.

[quote=You][quote=1R4M]Besides
why is everyone here acting as tho they're experts and scholars
we're not
[/quote]

So how are you advocating lenience?[/quote]

We are advocating moderate leniency and compassion which Islam encourages.

[quote=The Lamp]We are advocating moderate leniency and compassion which Islam encourages.[/quote]

In life, not in the role of a judge - who has to follow the letter, simply because is some cases (not this), leniency would no longer be just.

The reason that Adultery is punished harshly is that Family is an important concept and if a player wants out of a marriage, it is easy. You do not have to give up half your property, future earnings or things of the like.

I am sorry, but I have not seen any reason being cited to give lenience. Other than "it's the Islamic way, innit?"

It might be, but it needs a stronger advocacy than that.

(I have even given examples of better arguments! Another one: Do the hudood punishments apply to such a desensitized place?)

This argument is utterly futile since the deed has been done and we do not have full details.

It could have either been a 13 year old wrongly murdered. Or it could have been a 23 year old who actually did meet the criteria. Who knows?