Is it necessary to establish a khalifa?

On the other hand if my plan for world domination succeeds...

MuslimBroI am shocked that you think creating unity among the ummah, and ruling based on the Quran and Sunnah is a bidah. May Allah (swt) forgive you.

err hang one a minute, where have i said that? stop making stuff up. what i said was the idea that there has to be one khilafah and one amir in the ummah is a bidah. it has no basis in islam whatsoever. anyhoo, do hurry with your argument, looking forward to it.

Dr Whoi would suggest to those of you who can, listen to Shaykh ul Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir ul Qadris lecture called 'the islamic state' it is very comprehensive and will answer your questions. there is also a booklet that has been produced from those lectures called 'the islamic state-true concept and eradicating misconceptions', it is free and should be available from the nearest minhaj centre. both deal with what a khilafah is, its structure and many other issues in the light of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

i skimmed read that last night, maasha'Allah top stuff. there are also two lectures on khilafah in english, i've made rough notes on them so if anyone wants them, drop me a pm. qibla coevers both sides of the argument, crystal clear. just look outside the box, the HT side and other prominent scholars.

Noorerr hang one a minute, where have i said that? stop making stuff up. what i said was the idea that there has to be one khilafah and one amir in the ummah is a bidah. it has no basis in islam whatsoever.

A Khilafah would create unity and would be based on the Qur'an and Sunnah, so if re-establishing and having a Khilafah is a bidah, then isn't that the same as saying ruling based on the Qur'an and Sunnah is bidah?

When the Prophet (pbuh) established the Muslim state and was the leader, was there any other leader? Or when Abu Bakr (ra) or Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (ra) was the Caliph was there any other Caliph? No, there wasn't because there can only be ONE caliph. If it was a bidah and has no basis in Islam then why would the Companions of the Prophet (pbuh) continue the trend. The Khilafah is not something ancient, it existed less than 90 years ago.

Btw is there a link to the lectures mentioned above?

Noorwhat i said was the idea that there has to be one khilafah and one amir in the ummah is a bidah.

Dr Who‘if people start making bay’at with two different khalifahs kill the second one (to maintain unity)’ where is the word world mentioned?

To me that reads as there should be one leader... with no geographical boundary listed... unless I am reading ti wrong? (Since the good doctor did not provide a source, I have no idea about validity.)

doesnt any read my posts? :roll:

'if people starting making bayat with two different khilafahs kill the second to make unity'

note, in the hadith, does the prophet saw mention the whole world? the word world is not use nor is this hadith refering to the ummah. the hadith is refering to a situation where some have made bayat with one khilafah and some with another khilafah. this can be understood through another hadith, 'if someone comes to you and you have already agreed on the imarah of a particular man and have become unified through that, and he wants to create disunity in your jama'ah, you should kill him'. jam'ah and ummah are two separate things.

the prophet saw didnt say anything about being one khilafah n that if there is another, he should be killed. but if there is an amir and someone comes and challenges this unity then one should be killed.

understand admin?

What exactly is the alternative to a khalifah? Nation states. These are (in many cases) arbitrary lines drawn onto a map.

People unite around a shared nationality, not a shared vision, a common humanity nor a shared Religion.

As Muslims, I would like to think that we feel that Islam is the most important factor in our life, not our national heritage.

MuslimBroA Khilafah would create unity and would be based on the Qur'an and Sunnah, so if re-establishing and having a Khilafah is a bidah, then isn't that the same as saying ruling based on the Qur'an and Sunnah is bidah?

where have i said khilafah wont create unity and where have i said by having khilafah this is a bidah? please show me. what i said was, (read carefully this time :roll: ) the idea that many muslims have which is that there must be ONE KHILAFAH for the WHOLE WORLD/UMMAH is a bidah. why? because at the time of the prophet saw, when the state was in madinah, there was also another khilafah in makkah. also, when there was khilafah in baghadad, there was also a khilafah in spain at the same time.

the prophet saw said, if someone approaches you when you have made bayat with a jam'a, and he wants you to take bayat with him (other dude) then kill him cz he wil want to create disunity with you (jama). tats a diff case.

When the Prophet (pbuh) established the Muslim state and was the leader, was there any other leader? Or when Abu Bakr (ra) or Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (ra) was the Caliph was there any other Caliph? No, there wasn't because there can only be ONE caliph.

now when you say there should be one amir, do you mean one amir for the entire ummah or for A khilafah?

Actually I found the article by Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri. It was.... interesting to say the least. I bet that was where you got your info from. It contradicted certain things I read and heard but InshaAllah I'll look into them more.

For the people who normally don't like reading long post, please read this extract from the above Shaykh.

Islam is a complete code of life and, more than that, it is a complete system which has to be implemented. It prescribes the duties and obligations of all Muslims, the way they should relate to other people and groups, the rights of individuals and society as a whole, family law, criminal law including criminal penalties, civil law, public law, economic and fiscal law, and also the systems and establishment of the courts and institutions that are needed to administrate, implement and enforce these things. So Islam provides a complete code for each and every aspect of human life, both individual and collective. Historically speaking, Islam has always created complete societies and there are many places in the world today whose laws, commandments, instructions and guidance have been furnished by Islam. In such societies Islam does not only define internal laws but also defines the laws which govern their relationship with other nations: laws concerned with war, laws concerned with treaties, laws concerned with peace, and laws concerned with the right of the non-Muslim minority which live in an Islamic state. All of these things are defined by the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw).
All these laws need to be implemented, but implementation is not an individual matter and can only be carried out by an organised institution. This in turn necessitates the formation of such an institution to implement these rights and laws and this is known as Islamic governance. A form of governance has to be established in order to implement what has been revealed by Allah (swt), what has been communicated by the Holy Prophet (saw), and to fulfil all the various requirements of human society. This is the reason why the Holy Prophet ﷺ emigrated to Madina. The thirteen years of his life as Prophet ﷺ in Makka were spent in propagation, during which time he concentrated on preaching, spiritual training, spiritual purity, character building and preparing a community of strong believers. When, however, he migrated to Madina the first thing he did was establish Islamic governance.
This type of social organisation was needed to deal with matters of war. If an enemy attacks a Muslim community living in any place, they must be able to defend themselves and for this they need an army which must be organised and paid for. All these functions have to be carried out by a government and show the necessity of establishing such an institution. The same applies to all human communities. The establishment of a government is a common need for all societies whether Muslim or non-Muslim. So Islam also recommends, approves and agrees with this and recognises that Islamic governance is needed and also that there can be no Islamic state or Islamic government without a leader. The state and government needs a head who may be called by any one of many names as mentioned previously.
This whole phenomenon and philosophy is summed up in the hadith mentioned earlier, sometimes referred to as an athar (tradition), in which Sayyiduna Umar (ra) said, “There is no Islam without community (jama’ah), and there is no community without (Imarah) and there is no leadership (Imarah) without obedience (ta’ah).” The words “There is no Islam…” mean there could be no enforcement of Islam, no existence of Islam as a system, without jama’ah and jama’ah means a community and is in essence an organised society known as a state. It is an organised society fulfilling certain characteristics and conditions under the authority of a government. There is no true existence of Islam without this jama’ah.
The words “…and there is no jama’ah (community) without Imarah (leadership)…” mean there can be no organised society, no governance, without a leader. The community must be headed by someone: there must be someone working as the leader and head of the community. In the word jama’ah we find the concept of the Islamic state and in the word Imarah lies the concept of Amir or khalifah, the Islamic leader.
The words “…and there is no Imarah (leadership) without ta’ah (obedience),” show that Islamic leadership involves the obedience of the Muslims to that leadership. The leader may be called chief executive or Amir – as we have seen the name given to him is unimportant – but he is owed the obedience of the Muslim community. By definition he is the superior and the people are subordinate to him. There is a relationship between them of Hakim (ruler) and mahkum (ruled) but he will be asked about his people and his society because he is responsible for all their affairs.
This is the concept of jama’ah (organised society) in Islam and it protects the rights, benefits and interests of the whole community: the whole system provides a guarantee of the rights of all its members. The purpose of the whole thing is the harmonious cohesion of the political body of Islam. It says in the Qur’an in Surah al-Imran:

Hold fast to the rope of Allah (swt) all together, and do not separate. (3; 103)

This has two meanings. Firstly it is an instruction to the whole Muslim ummah to avoid splitting up and sectarianism and instead be united and remain a cohesive unit. The Holy Prophet ﷺ said, “It is incumbent on you to be attached to the jama’ah and always avoid becoming separated from it.” In this hadith, the Holy Prophet ﷺ is advising us to avoid being alone and not to get detached from the jama’ah, from the collective existence of the Muslim community. Indeed one of the primary concerns of the Holy Prophet ﷺ was iltizamu’l-jama’ah – to maintain, protect and promote an organised collective society – and he consolidated this by establishing the Islamic state of Madina, giving it a written constitution called Mithaqu’l-Madina.
This constitution was given to Madina and the society of Madina was organised according to it and the Holy Prophet ﷺ was declared to be its leader.

aye but that article is very brief. the article is compiled from 2 lectures of shaykh ul islam's, the lectures are much clear and the message is v. clear. the book 'the islamic state - true concept and eradicating misconceptions' is top. its free, they should have some at idara minhaj ul quran, romford rd.

ive got 2 dvds on khilafah but i dnt no how i can save them and up load them onto comp. admin, help.

msbr, can u answer my questions plz.

Ya'qubWhat exactly is the alternative to a khalifah? Nation states. These are (in many cases) arbitrary lines drawn onto a map.

People unite around a shared nationality, not a shared vision, a common humanity nor a shared Religion.

As Muslims, I would like to think that we feel that Islam is the most important factor in our life, not our national heritage.

Most countries are (or should be) separated on geographical lines. Mountain ranges, the ocean, rivers etc.

By "Most" I mean those that were not part of the British (maybe other too) empire, as here, they decided to leave with drawing straight lines.

Being in a larger state has different issues to being in a smaller one - your voice may be less likely to be heard. More bureaucracy.

Near the end, the Ottoman empire was pretty weak for a number of centuries and was even accused of having a state within a state. (it also lost big in WW1 - something that I have not managed to get much info on - other bits are more covered in literature than what happened to the largest empire.)

You

Ya'qubWhat exactly is the alternative to a khalifah? Nation states. These are (in many cases) arbitrary lines drawn onto a map.

People unite around a shared nationality, not a shared vision, a common humanity nor a shared Religion.

As Muslims, I would like to think that we feel that Islam is the most important factor in our life, not our national heritage.

Most countries are (or should be) separated on geographical lines. Mountain ranges, the ocean, rivers etc.

By "Most" I mean those that were not part of the British (maybe other too) empire, as here, they decided to leave with drawing straight lines.

Being in a larger state has different issues to being in a smaller one - your voice may be less likely to be heard. More bureaucracy.

Near the end, the Ottoman empire was pretty weak for a number of centuries and was even accused of having a state within a state. (it also lost big in WW1 - something that I have not managed to get much info on - other bits are more covered in literature than what happened to the largest empire.)

But that doesn't really answer the point I was raising;

At the end of the French Revolution, which was the formation of the first 'nation state', the leaders said that loyalty to you 'fellow countrymen' was more important than any other loyalty, 'even to you Religion'. There is nothing in this fundamental principal that is compatible with Islam.

Noornow when you say there should be one amir, do you mean one amir for the entire ummah or for A khilafah?

I'll look into this more and will take the Shaykh's answer into consideration. There's some bits of the Khilafah even I'm unsure about.

I was @ the Romford rd. mosque yesterday, inshaAllah I'll pick it up.

Ya'qub

At the end of the French Revolution, which was the formation of the first 'nation state', the leaders said that loyalty to you 'fellow countrymen' was more important than any other loyalty, 'even to you Religion'. There is nothing in this fundamental principal that is compatible with Islam.

I agree with that.

The USA's National Intelligence Council (NIC), a CIA think-tank, has taken the idea of the restoration of the Caliphate seriously enough to include as one of four possible scenarios in its 2020 Project report, 'Mapping the Global Future.'

A New Caliphate provides an example of how a global movement fueled by radical religious identity politics could constitute a challenge to Western norms and values as the foundation of the global system.

The spread of radical Islam will have a significant global impact leading to 2020, rallying disparate ethnic and national groups and perhaps even creating an authority that transcends national boundaries. Part of the appeal of radical Islam involves its call for a return by Muslims to earlier roots when Islamic civilization was at the forefront of global change. The collective feelings of alienation and estrangement which radical Islam draws upon are unlikely to dissipate until the Muslim world again appears to be more fully integrated into the world economy.

- A Caliphate would not have to be entirely successful for it to present a serious challenge to the international order. This scenario underlines the saliency of the cross-cultural ideological debate that would intensify with growing religious identities.
- The IT revolution is likely to amplify the clash between Western and Muslim world.
- The appeal of a Caliphate among Muslims would vary from region to region, which argues for Western countries adopting a differentiated approach to counter it. Muslims in regions benefiting from globalisation, such as parts of Asia and Europe, may be torn between the idea of a spiritual Caliphate and the material advantages of a globalized world.

Hmmm.... interesting. Very interesting indeed.

You forgot add the bit at the end.

The proclamation of a Caliphate would not lessen the likelihood of terrorism and, in fomenting more conflict, could fuel a new generation of terrorists intent on attacking those opposed to the Caliphate, whether inside or outside the Muslim world.

Link

I'm sure we're all aware of the HT position but please can't you be a little bit unbiased here?

Beast: shouldn't you be more interested in what is being said, rather than who's saying it?

and whos gona be the amir of the khilafah then? taji mustafa :roll:

anyway, so msbro, what do you say about the hadith 'mawt al-jahiliyah'. i'm guessing the ht bros who attacked you used that one.

noor, have you ever met anyone from HT? did you know that they don't go around attacking people.

The government had a long investigation as to whether they should be banned or not, and found that there was no grounds to do such thing.

If you look at which countries HT is banned in, they are either western countries with a culture of Islamophobia or Muslim-majority countries with terrible human-rights records that are led be corrupt, power-mad individuals.

Ya'qubnoor, have you ever met anyone from HT? did you know that they don't go around attacking people.

lol, have i met anyone from HT! i almost became one!!! i spent a year and a half with them, so when i talk, i talk from exp.

BeastYou forgot add the bit at the end.

The proclamation of a Caliphate would not lessen the likelihood of terrorism and, in fomenting more conflict, could fuel a new generation of terrorists intent on attacking those opposed to the Caliphate, whether inside or outside the Muslim world.

Sorry, should have added this bit. The West would love this because they have attacked the Caliphate time and time again and they would use this as an excuse by arguing against a Caliphate. Call me ignorant but I learned this recently, that Al-Qaeda actually want a Khilafah. Good on them, but not sure about their tactics.

@Noor - I don't think attack is the right word to use, I'm actually grateful. Even if you don't believe in one Amir, you do believe that there should be a Khilafah?

MuslimBro@Noor - I don't think attack is the right word to use, I'm actually grateful. Even if you don't believe in one Amir, you do believe that there should be a Khilafah?

targeted you then.

anyway, its not what i believe, its what the prophet saw taught us and his sunnah. thats what i believe, so from the sunnah and ahadith, we can come to conclusion that the concept of having one amir in the ummah has no basis in islam whatsoever.

of course i believe that there should be islamic stateS but do i believe its fardh? no, the prophet saw left this matter to ijtihad and not with a time limit. that prophet saw also accepted the concept of types of governance other than khilafah, showing us that the basic purpose was to establish islamic governance regardless of the term used.

Ya'qubBeast: shouldn't you be more interested in what is being said, rather than who's saying it?

All I wanted was some scholarly opinions on the restoration of the Caliphate. Like I said in another thread I'm open to persuasion on the issue because I don't know much about it. Although I have spent a day watching HT videos on YouTube when I should have been working on an assignment.

If HT's take on the Caliphate was the be all and end all of it then why isn't every other member of the Ulema a HT?

If MuslimBro can't find anything non-HT on the subject then, it's OK. I'll have a look around for myself.

Beast Although I have spent a day watching HT videos on YouTube when I should have been working on an assignment.

convinced yet?

No. Because I know that listening to to HT I will get the HT view of the world not a balanced weighing up of the arguments.

Noorwe can come to conclusion that the concept of having one amir in the ummah has no basis in islam whatsoever.

As I said to you, I'm still unsure about this. But the Shaykh's answer seems to prove you right.

Noorof course i believe that there should be islamic stateS but do i believe its fardh? no, the prophet saw left this matter to ijtihad and not with a time limit. that prophet saw also accepted the concept of types of governance other than khilafah, showing us that the basic purpose was to establish islamic governance regardless of the term used.

Whatever the terminology used, the basic concept of the Quran is that Islamic governence is established. So a state/nation/khilafah (whatever you want to call it) is ruled WITHOUT contradicting the Quran and Sunnah. I believe this to be the general consensus.

@Beast: I have asked the brother to provide me with all the evidence he can, to argue his case for a Khilafah with only one amir. The matter is out of my hands so I'll only post the evidence when I get it. Please be patient. I am also abit unsure like you are but I think the general consensus is what I said above.

Just to quote (again) the above Shaykh.

All of these things (laws) are defined by the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw).
All these laws need to be implemented, but implementation is not an individual matter and can only be carried out by an organised institution. This in turn necessitates the formation of such an institution to implement these rights and laws and this is known as Islamic governance. A form of governance has to be established in order to implement what has been revealed by Allah (swt), what has been communicated by the Holy Prophet (saw), and to fulfil all the various requirements of human society.

:?:

Another quote from the same Shaykh.

The establishment of a government is a common need for all societies whether Muslim or non-Muslim. So Islam also recommends, approves and agrees with this and recognises that Islamic governance is needed and also that there can be no Islamic state or Islamic government without a leader. The state and government needs a head who may be called by any one of many names as mentioned previously.

@Noor: What don't you understand?