hows smoking or doing grugs involuntary?

I wasn't saying it was.

Brother Dawud was saying that people with anorexia/bulimia (involuntarily) see what isn't actually there, so in other words it's not their fault as it's involuntary.

So I was just saying if he would consider smoking or taking drugs to be involuntary, as you're addicted with both.

As far as im concerned anorexic/bulimic folk did it to themselves. Its prob coz of a lack of self-control mixed with a generious dash of low self-esteem. One of these days they're just gotta learn to drop it.

I have no patience for smokers or druggies and certainly no sympathy.

"Dawud" wrote:

As I understand it anorexia comes about due a distorted self body image. What the person (involuntarily) sees isn't whats actually there. The perception is misaligned with the reality.

Just like a mad person will never believe that he/she is really mad.

Its incredibly difficult to make an anorexic person 'see' what others can see.

Thats the problem with most mental disorders.

I'm pretty sure those families who have lost children because of this disorder must have said 'Just eat!' somewhere down the line. In fact, many victims are force fed in hospitals.

Despite family intervention, medical treatment, counselling etc...unlike most mental conditions, anorexia has the highest number of deaths associated with it.

"MuslimBro" wrote:

So would you say that a druggie or a person who smokes does their act involuntarily, after all they are addicted. Nicotine is said to be more addictive then heroin so why no sympathy to smokers.

Salaam

I wouldn't compare the involuntary factor of addiction to the involuntary factor of anorexia.

For the druggie I would say it is voluntary because they are aware of what they are doing to themselves. However, there can be a duality within them (I would call this the interplay between the Nur nature and Bashir nature) where consiously they want to refuse the drug, however they are overcome by the desire to accept the drug.

The following is extensive speculative thought on my part:

The desire acts against their voluntary will, it creates an involuntary disequilibrium. The conscious will then percieves that to feed the desire will be restorative. This is 'bashir nature' logic, "I seek refuge in God (SWT) from being decreased."

The logic of the 'Nur nature' is "I seek refuge in God (SWT) from returning to Him (SWT) without having completed the work I was charged to complete."

The drug is then on some level voluntarily taken to assuage the disequilibrium and create balance. However drinking sea water does not quench thirst. True balance is restored when the desire is uprooted and cast out.

This is strength bestowed upon the person if he can uproot the desire. How he could do it, I don't know. However seeing as every fire only burns when there is fuel, and must burn itself out without fuel. I would think cutting off external influences and persevering inwardly upon Patience would hopefully meet with sucsess.

So to sum up. Involuntary desire, volition whether to or not to conceede to the desire. The desire can use dangerous tricks to confuse the mind. When the mind is unfocused that is when to anticipate the strike.

The words 'Laa howla wa laa Quwata illa Billah ' seem pertinent here.
For without the blessings of strength and Divine Protection we wouldn't have much of a chance.

Has anyone here ever been a drug addict? or seen addiction up-lose and personally? If not, then I don't think you are in a very good position to speculate to the inner-workings and mindsets of drug addicts.

I am so utterly grateful to Allah (swt) from saving me from drugs and alcohol, and I feel utterly overwhelmed that I have been chosen from amongst millions of people who are similar to how I was.

I smoked weed every day for about 4 years. That is EVERY day. Of course it was my choice, but the Shaitan made it seem desireable to me, and blocked my heart and mind fom seeing any alternative. It came to the stage where I couldn't imagine spending time with my friends, or even sitting at home on my own, without getting stoned. Cannabis is supposedly NOT an addictive drug, but the effect it has on the mind is similar. I also know of many of my family and my parents' friends who have become alcoholic, and the marriages that have been wrecked. Blaming the person who is affected is NOT a way of solving anything.

The Qur'an says of disbelievers that 'Allah (swt) has put a seal over their hearts.'

I agree with MS that anorexic people don't 'see' themselves in the way others see them.

My sister had a very good friend who became anorexic, she was in hospital and had to be fed through a tube at one point. She eventually came out of this phase, but it was made clear that she DID suffer from some sort of mental disorder a few years later, when she killed herself by jumping in front of a train.

It really isn't a laughing matter.

I don't see drug abuse or even anorexia/bulimia as being [b]directly[/b] related to public opinion.

I think that in the early stages, peer-pressure and images in the media can make someone want to try drugs to look cool, or lose a dramatic amount of weight to look attractive. But only certain people go from being simply a bit vain to being mentally unsound, and the issue of public opinion does not really affect them.

It seems that allowing yourself to be affected by how other people view you can [b]lead[/b] to problems, but there are factors in this aswell, for example social upbringing or a history of mental illness within the family. If we manage to escape being affected by other people's opinions, and constantly try to please Allah (swt) instead of others, maybe we will be safe from the serious disorders that can be the result, insha'Allah.

However, some philosophers say that we can [b]only[/b] have a concept of ourselves in relation to how others perceive us, and when you ask someone "how are you doing?" you are, in actuality, asking them "How am [b]I[/b] doing?"

Hope (some of) this makes sense...

"Ya'qub" wrote:

I smoked weed every day for about 4 years. That is EVERY day. Of course it was my choice, but the Shaitan made it seem desireable to me, and blocked my heart and mind fom seeing any alternative. It came to the stage where I couldn't imagine spending time with my friends, or even sitting at home on my own, without getting stoned. Cannabis is supposedly NOT an addictive drug, but the effect it has on the mind is similar.

Weed can be a crutch, and probably not too damaging, but I think skunk and some modern hash are so powerful that they are addictive and highly debilitating. That was my experience.

"Mr Honey's Day Out" wrote:

Weed can be a crutch, and probably not too damaging, but I think skunk and some modern hash are so powerful that they are addictive and highly debilitating. That was my experience.

I was on that skunk you mention, I never touched hash because I was told that dealers put all sorts of things like engine oil to make it stronger. I also once smoked skunk that had been laced with ketamin by mistake (and collapsed in the park! I was only 15 at the time).

I think that all the middle-aged middle-class liberals who's attitudes have led to declassification (sorry, 're-classification') think that the youth are all smoking that weak, homegrown bush-weed that they used to smoke in the 1960s.

Infact, child slaves are bought from abroad to work in huge skunk factories in Britain, and so it REALLY isn't a victimless crime.

Wow, I never heard about those child slaves. Main benefit for me is not being sluggish or hiding away.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

My sister had a very good friend who became anorexic, she was in hospital and had to be fed through a tube at one point. She eventually came out of this phase, but it was made clear that she DID suffer from some sort of mental disorder a few years later, when she killed herself by jumping in front of a train.

It really isn't a laughing matter.

Thats incredibly sad Yaqub. :?

Mental problems are such a severe problem in our Muslim community (esp in my town)...I personally know so many women suffering from this. And its sad that as a community we lack time, patience, understanding and even compassion for these people.

I find some people's comments on here a little disturbing. We're so judgemental...everybody deserves respect and understanding from us. No matter them being anorexic or a drug addict. How are we supposed to improve as a society or as individuals if we're so dismissive of such people? Who says tomorrow we won't be affected by such issues?

I know someone who is a heroin addict. He is one of the most nicest, kindest, most caring person I have ever met. I could easily make more than 70 excuses for him. Everyday I pray he finds his way again. It's not just himself he's hurting, what about his family, his young kids, what have they done wrong? If ever I have enough money, the first thing I'd do is offer to put him through rehab. He is a human after all.

Ya'qub and Mr Honey's Day Out I think it's really great that you've come through it. As you both acknowledge, not everyone's so blessed. May Allah swt make it easy for you always.

The earlier discussion was that anorexics are not victims because they harm themselves, just like druggies and people who smoke. So how can we say anorexics are victims but not druggies or smokers. Yes they are human and all need help but they are not victims.

Brother Dawud, you were saying that a druggies act is voluntary because they consciously want to stop but are overcome by the desire to accept it. If an anorexic stops being anorexic and starts eating properly, they will feel better. But if a drug addict stops taking heroin for example, they will start to crave for the drug, they will sweat, they will vomit, ect. The druggie wants to stop taking drugs but if they do they will experience all these withdrawal symptoms. So if you see it this way, the druggie is harming themselves by taking drugs, and if even if they do not take the drugs they are still experiencing discomfort and pain so it's like a no way out for them.

As you've rightly said that people such as drug addicts not only harm themselves, but the people around them. There are also some drug addicts who cannot afford to pay for their habit so they commit crime (robbery, burglary, ect.) How does one respect a person who robs and steals from people just to fund their drug habit. The people who do this don't care what happens to us, they will even kill to get the money they need to get the drugs.

Reminds of an incident which happened a few years back near where I live. A drug addict asked his nan for money to buy drugs and she said no, so as he was so desperate he stabbed her and took her money (she died). I don't think I can respect these kind of people.... maybe you can though.

"MuslimBro" wrote:

So how can we say anorexics are victims but not druggies or smokers. .

Anorexia is a recognised mental condition. All victims of anorexia have this mental disorder.

Some drug addicts have mental disorders, not all.

And most smokers do not have mental disorder that makes them smoke.

Thats the main difference between anorexic people..and smokers/drug addicts.

The [i]only[/i] reason why a condition may be recognised as a mental disorder is because it is stated in the DSM and ICD.

Homosexuality was a mental disorder before they removed it from the DSM and ICD.

The DSM and ICD is updated (once every 10-20 years or so) and mental disorders come and go. Anorexia may be removed in the future, you never know.

"MuslimBro" wrote:

The earlier discussion was that anorexics are not victims because they harm themselves, just like druggies and people who smoke. So how can we say anorexics are victims but not druggies or smokers. Yes they are human and all need help but they are not victims.

Yeah I know, I just felt the discussion had gone onto a bit of a 'serves them right' attitude. It doesn't serve them right. As for whether they can be classed as 'victims' - why do we have to label or categorise them anyway. They are humans like us, that's all that should matter. If we're not like them, then that's something to be grateful to Allah swt for.

"MuslimBro" wrote:

As you've rightly said that people such as drug addicts not only harm themselves, but the people around them. There are also some drug addicts who cannot afford to pay for their habit so they commit crime (robbery, burglary, ect.) How does one respect a person who robs and steals from people just to fund their drug habit. The people who do this don't care what happens to us, they will even kill to get the money they need to get the drugs.

Reminds of an incident which happened a few years back near where I live. A drug addict asked his nan for money to buy drugs and she said no, so as he was so desperate he stabbed her and took her money (she died). I don't think I can respect these kind of people.... maybe you can though.

They have a problem, I can respect that.

I think that unless you've experienced it yourself, it's hard to understand them. From the outside it does sound crazy. If I didn't know this person personally, I wouldn't think much of him, or people like him, at all.

"MuslimBro" wrote:

The [i]only[/i] reason why a condition may be recognised as a mental disorder is because it is stated in the DSM and ICD.

Homosexuality was a mental disorder before they removed it from the DSM and ICD.

The DSM and ICD is updated (once every 10-20 years or so) and mental disorders come and go. Anorexia may be removed in the future, you never know.

Anorexia seen as a mental disorder because people 'see' what is not actually there and this unrealistic view of reality then leads to the highest death rate compared to any other mental disorder.

And in most cases, it isnt even starvation that leads to death. Its suicide.

People are killing themselves - jumping in front of trains etc cos they are 'seeing' something that isnt even there, and you dont believe that, thats a mental disorder?

"Admin" wrote:

"Victims" of anorexia have this need to "fit in".

They wanna be thin and attractive. Others want to be rich and rob a bank.

Thats a massive generalisation Admin.

It isnt always about wanting to look good. Weight issue is one of the many reasons why people become anorexic. But its only ONE of the reasons.

I know of girls who became anorexic because they were vicims of sexual abuse...and actually wanted to make themselves look 'ugly'.

"Admin" wrote:

[quote="[url=http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=27]NHS Direct[/url]"]]Anorexia nervosa means 'loss of appetite for nervous reasons'. However, this is misleading because people with anorexia nervosa may have a normal appetite, but drastically control their eating so as not to satisfy their appetite. People with anorexia do not wish to starve themselves to death, but they may deny the seriousness of a very low body weight.
.

NHS Direct also goes on to the many reasons why people become anorexic.

'Vanity', is only one of the many reasons.

Quote:

Social pressures to be thin and to be sexually attractive. Anorexia is triggered by weight loss, usually beginning as a normal weight-reducing diet. Young girls may try to conform to unnatural levels of thinness, in a desire not to stand out and so make themselves a target for bullying (in societies which do not associate thinness with sexual attractiveness, eating disorders are rare).

Research suggests that genetics plays a part in developing an eating disorder. Those with a family history of anorexia appear to be more at risk of developing the condition.

Personality - there is a tendency for those who develop anorexia to have a conformist, organised and hard-working personality. They may be mildly obsessive and tend towards tidiness.

Family relationships - the families of anorexics are often high-achieving, with excessive parental control and high expectations of the children.

Attitudes to stresses occurring outside the home may be a factor. Typical stresses include exam pressures and feelings of rejection arising from difficulties with friends or relationships with members of the same or the opposite sex.

Research suggests that eating disorders may develop partly in response to difficult life experiences such as sexual or physical abuse, being bullied, or suffering a bereavement while growing up.

Confusion with sexuality and sexual identity may be a factor, with the individual subconsciously trying to return to the stage before puberty by making themselves smaller and losing their secondary sexual characteristics.

People who have jobs in which body image or shape is particularly important - such as dancers or models - may be more at risk of developing anorexia.

'Difficult life experiences - including sexual abuse is also one of reasons why people become anorexic - as mentioned above.

I do not have a problem with someone who is working and buying the drugs with their own money but when they rob and steal to fund their habit, that's when they have crossed the line.

It serves them right (was I even implying that). I wasn't saying that they deserve it, I was just saying that they are harming themselves like druggies and people who smoke and are not victims.

I would like to correct myself (and others), anorexia is not a mental disorder, its an eating disorder. And no I do not believe anorexia to be a mental disorder, I believe it to be an eating disorder.

Public opinion can be powerful and can matter. There are times when it is wise to ignore what others think and times when it is foolish to do so. We cannot always be prioritising our own insights and opinions, nor always the opinions of the public. Life isn't that easy. Trial and error is supreme.

They can indeed, for better or worse.

As we were talking about anorexia being a mental disorder, I thought I'd post this here instead of creating a new thread.

Quote:

[b][url=http://uk.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=25703498&sid=61... game addiction a mental disorder?[/url][/b]

The American Medical Association will be deciding this month whether or not to recommend that video game and Internet addiction should be included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), reports the Wall Street Journal on its Health Blog.

The House of Delegates, the AMA's decision-making body, will vote on the issue later this month. If it decides that excessive gaming constitutes a mental disorder, the decision will then be passed upward to the American Psychiatric Association, which has the final say on these matters.