I believe that Islamic values on respect for women are far higher than western values.
West has abandoned all sense of shame. They exploit the bodies of their mothers daughters and sisters. They have long ago stopped wearing modest clothes.
[edit] and others are actually quite scared of Muslim women wearing Hijab. It reminds them how disgraceful their own women really are. This makes them angry at dignified appearance of Muslim females.
That is the real reason.
Please discuss your views.
[b]Edit: Unsubstantiated derogatory comments towards any religion will not be tolerated.
- The Moderate Mod.[/b]
I dont know any non-muslim man or woman who hates the hijab.
the only person i can think of who seems to hate the hijab is Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and she's a Muslim
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Actually it's because of images & attitudes like this:
[img]http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/51/300px-Talibanbe...
That pretty much sums up western fears about the hijab.
thats an image that is alien to most western muslims
God knows why ppl choose to focus on a image that is millions of miles away
and ignore the 'hijaabed' up image they're more likley to be confronted with on a daily basis
Well yea but most non muslims don't know that until they actually talk to muslims. I think you have forgotten how insistent I was that hijab = oppression when I first started posting.
It's shocking, and creates a moral imperitive to do something about it.
Yea about that - it seems like for the most part muslims hang out with muslims and non muslims hang out with non muslims and there is little action between. Now I know you've got your non muslim friends and I have mine but it's not like there is actual cohesion or full integration taking place. We tend to segregate ourselves.
That's how you get muslims with the idea that all western women dress in miniskirts and low cut shorts. Or that any western girl with a short skirt is a slut. And of course non muslims with the idea that all muslim girls wear hijabs and any muslim girl in a hijab does it so that she doesn't get beaten with sticks by barefoot barbarians.
We both have our nasty little images of each other.
what a silly comment….
would the “scared” christians include the catholic nuns who wear a headscarf?
why r so many muslims unable to differentiate between christians and the bulk of the population who are secular or outright atheists?
this is truly a age of ignorance…
They Vote To Send Us To War Instantly.....But None Of Their Kids Serve In The Infantry...
POWER TO THE PEOPLE....
Hi George,
Not to reign in on your parade but how can you say "so many muslims" when malik is the only person to say the above comment and apparently is the only one who agrees with it?
Dave
dunno about ur place
but i live in multicultural London
one of the most diverse cities in the world
i've been to school with non Muslims
i study at uni with non Muslims - my study group is all non muslim
i've worked with non Muslims
we dont have a strong concept of sticking to our own
all my lecturers are non muslims
i have yet to encounter an 'ignorant non muslim'
and i dont believe that all non muslim women are 'tarts'
And yet looking at the grand picture your country, the United Kingdom, one of the most diverse countries in the world considers "integration issues" one of the signature touchpoints in the political discourse.
I alike it to the United States as the blood sucking mexicans down south. Sure, there are pockets in the US - like London - that are decently functioning multicultural areas. Yet all the same the general trends are that these groups stick to their own, Mexicans with Mexicans in Mexican neighborhoods, and non Mexicans with non Mexicans in non Mexican neighborhoods. And just like in Britain with Muslims there are bizzarre little stereotypes held by both groups about each other.
There isn't any serious mixing going on.
Right but it does make a difference that you are from an upper middle class (and therefore socially and physically mobile) family with a strong education.
Muslims might not [i]intend[/i] to... but [url=http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=956]demographically[/url] you do tend to live in concentrated areas. So let's take a look at the demographics, according to your census you live in the most concentrated location for muslims in the whole United Kingdom:
[i]"People from Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim and Sikh backgrounds were concentrated in London and other large urban areas. Christians and those with no religion were more evenly dispersed across the country."[/i]
Even within the concentrated regions muslims tend to live in highly concentrated subdivisions - neighborhoods and the like.
[i]"Around two fifths of Muslims (38 per cent) lived in London. After London, the regions with the next biggest share of the Muslim population were the West Midlands (14 per cent), the North West (13 per cent), and Yorkshire and the Humber (12 per cent). Even within these regions, Muslims were highly concentrated spatially. Muslims made up 8 per cent of London's population overall but 36 per cent of the Tower Hamlets and 24 per cent of the Newham populations. "[/i]
No offense but how do you know? Many people hold prejudiced or ignorant views, yet do not voice them out of embarassment. It's entirely possible your lecturers or friends at school believe some strange and unpleasant things about muslims that they would never say to you.
Also, looking beyond your immediate circle there are reports daily of ignorant people spitting on muslims and saying nasty things about them - even in your multicultural London. I'd wager they are in some of the less affluent areas or London, but present nonetheless.
I would hope you don't... but Malik seems to - and he appears to be British just like you.
I'd be curious to know what the differences are in your respective educations and the demographic makeup of your neighborhoods and where you spend most of your time.
reg demographics
when indians/pakistani's came to the UK in the 60's they mainly came together and came in large numbers
thats why the cities such as bradford, B'ham, nottingham etc have a high number of ethnic minorities
this was NOT a conscious effort-it was more coincidental IMO
thats where the work was (factories etc)
nowadays many ethnic minorties are moving out of areas such as Newham, Tower Hamlets etc
because unfortuntutly-areas that are highly populated with ethnic minorities are run down areas with high crime rates
thats one of the main reasons why i spent my childhood in an area where i was pretty much the only muslim in my school
where i live/have lived has always been based on dads job and/or crime rate in the area - not to 'stick to our own'
whilst i agree that the areas that u have mentioned are highly populated with ethnic minorties
this is slowly but surely changing-esp with the third generation
i dont disagree. that even in multicultural london attacks ARE made in Muslims. but i believe that this is the exception and NOT the norm.
i refuse to believe that my non muslims friends are anti muslims. cos i spend a LOT of my time with them. i choose my friends very carefully and i have a zero tolerent level when it comes to taking crap.
btw i have no idea what Malik is on
i have little patience for western hating weirdo's like him.
hello david...
u can rain on anything u want my old son....
after all u are the mighty USAF!
my comment was a general remark on the habit of biased commentators making smart remarks to a self serving audience....
dont try 2 be too clever my old friend...
ur dealing with zhukov's infrantry this time......
CFC
:twisted: :twisted:
They Vote To Send Us To War Instantly.....But None Of Their Kids Serve In The Infantry...
POWER TO THE PEOPLE....
Since the official topic is actually about hijabs, i would like to share a story my (trustworthy) friend told me:
His aunty (a middle-aged pakistani lady) was walking through south london, brixton i believe, and a car drove past and someone inside through some sort of acid or flaming lyqid at her, which set her hijab on fire! Fortunately she had it tied on loosely (unlike the way younger women tend to tie their hijab) so threw it to the ground and wasnt hurt, alhamdulillah.
i cant understand why anyone would do such a thing, what were they planning to achieve?
Don't just do something! Stand there.
right... well, i don't really like it when he makes general remarks directed at christians and americans, lets not blow his remarks out of proportion and include a wider audience than is necessary.
Things like that happen rarely I think but that doesnt mean all non-muslims hate the hijab! When I am at work people always comment on how pretty my hijabs are and how co-ordinated they always look.
The only reason I have maybe felt someone didnt like the hijab was when a group of us were walking to college most of us had hijabs on and a car with a bunch of uneducated fools (imo) drove past shouting bin laden (this was after 9/11), it was realy stupid of them. However this is the only incident I have faced thank god and I cannot base my whole judgement of non-muslims on those stupid fools. It would be very silly to do that.
Where I stay we have a very multi-cultural atmosphere and I love it so I cannot every think to feel that people hate the hijab over one stupid incident.
alhamdulillah this type of thing happens very rarely! it was one of the only examples like this I have heard, its certainly not the norm, especially in places like London.
My point was that we can't pretend things like this don't happen [b]at all[/b].
I think Senor Karnage and others have highlighted the real cause of any problems which do exist: [b]social class[/b] and [b]wealth[/b], and in turns its effect on the [b]education[/b] of an individual.
i could now go into some rant about how its all a governmental/bourgeoisie/zionist conspiracy to divide the common people on racial/religious grounds to keep them from achieving any social change etc. oops, i think i just have...
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I think everyone can admit that in terms on morality, no other religion can show that they are better than Muslims. We do not exploit our women and let them be paraded semi-naked in the streets, on billboards, newspapers, and television. We value our women a lot more than any other nation or religion. [edit] too used to value their females 200 years ago but now they have torn their dress of modesty from them.
Hijab is a sign of modesty. We encourage our women to dress modestly. West tends to encourage them take it all off. Since the swinging 60s, western ladies have been really swinging it with multiple partners. They sleep around with almost anyone with no questions asked.
Muslim ladies appear so good in their scarfs and this makes [edit] a bit jealous because their men too wish that their daughters looked honourable rather than appear like tarts. When fathers cannot do anything about the indecent dresses of their own daughters they feel frustrated. Modestly dressed Muslims females reminds them of how badly dressed their own wives and daughters are. This make Christians very. That is why they try to make us dress like them. This is what we Muslims understand by the call to integrate. It simply means dress down. Show men a bit of flesh, like our wives do. I think this is disgraceful.
[b]Edit: You have already been given a warning. Any further 'christian-bashing' and your post will be deleted.
- The Moderate Mod.[/b]
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
did they tell u this?
or did u figure this out all by urself :roll:
dude you forgot about the brimstone and the burning in the fires of hell part.
Other than that... that was a stand up slating :mrgreen:
Back in BLACK
Another story has just come to mind from a few years ago and this one fits in quite nicely with Malik's Christian bashing. before I start, my intention is not to cuss any religion, i will just give an honest description of something from my point of view:
I went to a Catholic girl's school. WAIT! before u call the police let me explain! my sixth-form college was made up of four nearby secondary schools so it was very large and offered many subjects. The four schools were: one normal comprehensive mixed school, one non-religious boys' school and one non-religious girls' school and one Catholic girls' school. In sixth form your lessons would be spread out over the four sites so I had music lessons in one school and biology in another etc.
Anyway, I was walking through the Catholic girls' playground and I saw a year-9 girl run up behind a Muslim girl from the 6th form and rip her hijab from off her head. then all the little girls' friends were laughing and making a scene, causing much humiliation and distress for the Muslimah. I can't say for sure the motivation for the action, but i think it is unlikely that the young girl fealt 'jealous' of the Muslimah's modesty, although its possible. I CAN say for sure that MANY of the catholic girls wore their skirts very high and had very tight tops, and a lot of them had reputations for being 'easy' or 'loose' or whatever. Of course, this was long before I was a Muslim so I didn't exactly see this as a problem, astaghfirullah.
However, I don't for a minute think this behaviour was representative of Catholics in general, if I did then I would no better than those islamophobes we all constantly complain about. I am sure that if the nuns at the school had seen the behaviour of the kids they would be horrified.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Ya'qub
Is there a point to these stories of yours?
I'm not saying your non muslim friends hate you or vice versa. I'm simply saying muslims and non muslims tend to live in partially segregated communities which helps generate these nastly little stereotypes.
u learn a lot from stories
btw i dont agree with ur sentiments of catholic girls
most of my sisters non muslim mates are catholic - they're some of the nicest girls i kno
i wasnt trying to paint all catholics or all catholic girls with a tart-coloured brush,
but these girls attended a specifically 'religious' school with a chapel, nuns, morning prayers and hymns etc
and they (more often than not) behaved in a more immodest way than the girls who were at the non-religious girls school (who might well have been christian, jewish, muslim, atheist or whatever), who in turn behaved (more often than not) more immodestly than the girls who were at the mixed-sex comprehensive state school.
anyway, i was just trying to demonstrate the lack of respect for other people's beliefs that are prevalent in MANY single-faith schools.
i certainly wouldnt want to send my kids to a Muslim school if it was going to make them disrespect someone else's religion like that.
Senor Karnage:
is there a point to anything?
why type anything to a bunch of people who you've never met over the internet?
are u just uncomfortable with me highlighting some unpleasant aspects of some of the adherants to your religion?
muslims have had to get used to having to do this
i'm not trying to score points or anything
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I went to a strict Catholics school...with the exception of one or two girls there. Most of the girls there were extremely decent, with high morals.
So what have we learnt kids?
You get freaks in every community but thats no reason to ASSUME they're all like that.
Besides teenagers are hardly the best age group to judge an entire community on :roll: why in my youth i did alot of .... questionable things. And look at me now... im a self-rightious holier than thau jacka$$ lol
I have one rule: Live and let live... Jeo aur Jeena-do.
Back in BLACK
well, I may both think and speak in gross generalisations about most topics, but honestly i didnt mean to add fuel to malik's christian-bashing (what kind of 'bashing' could that be... :twisted: )
but the first gross generalisation about your school i'm going to make is that it sounds like there IS tolerance for other people's beliefs by allowing Muslims into the school.
the school i attended was 100% catholic (you needed church-attendance proof just to be considered) apart from the sixth form, which was only 'part' of the school in terms of location, apart from which there was little crossover in terms of practices etc.
i didn't mean to pick on catholics, it was the only 1st-hand example that came to mind.
i was actually following on Uncle Dave's point about education (or lack of education) about plural ways of life and beliefs that caused intolerance. Some parents are very good at teaching there kids about respect to other people. Others unfortunately aren't. if this is the case then if the child has the seperation between 'them' and 'us' confirmed within his/her school environment, the consequences are dangerous IMHO.
I was just trying to say how much i oppose single-faith schools in principle and how i think they can [u]sometimes[/u] contribute to intolerance in the wider society
today's kids pulling off someone's hijab [u]could[/u] turn into tomorrow's thugs throwing acid at strangers in the street.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I agree with you Yaqub.
However, I wouldnt say my Catholic girls school was extremely tolerent of other faiths...they only allowed an intake of 5% of pupils who were non Catholic.
But at the same time..I was in that college when 9/11 took place. And I rate how the school got together to stick up for the Muslims who were being abused on the streets as an after effect....
i'm very sad to say that i dont think many Muslim organisations would stand up for a similarly isolated and vunerable social groups in their time of need. they'd probably be too happy that the 'folk-devil' of society had shifted somewhere else for 15 mins or so.
Even during the niqab flare-up a few months ago, there were plenty of powerful Muslim voices saying that they oppose the veil and would prefer women not to wear it, trying to distance 'mainstream Islam' from this unpopular sub-division. I'm not saying all Muslims are like this, but the media is such a powerful tool, and inevitably it will be voices that stir up controvesy that will be listened to by the tabloids and, in turn, a large proportion of the population.
I think Christian and Jewish groups tend to be more greatly established economically and politically within the British system, and therefore don't feel as insecure when other minority groups are the target of abuse. This is why I dont want to send my kids to a Muslim school. The GCSE results might b above average, but at what cost? I'd prefer a well-rounded, humble, considerate, dumbo child than a zealous genius
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I think to a certain extent schools can make or break you for the first 25 years of your life. Not only are you learning, formally, but it becomes the signature social event in your life which plays an equal role in character formation.
I too do not wish to send my children to Islamic schools...I believe that they can make more of a difference to the Muslim Ummah by working alongside non Muslims.
Even I'm able to do more for Islam as a Muslim trainee teacher working in a non Muslim school...then I was as a Muslim teacher in a Muslim school.
Which is ironic as my third year dissertation was totally based on the "Need for Islamic Faith Schools For Muslims" :?
The 'them and us' mentality is very difficult to get rid of cos like you said..its not something that some parents explain very well.
I was working as a teacher in an Islamic school last summer and I delivered a lesson on Ramadan....the benfits etc. I told the children that they are to write a reply to a letter from their non Muslim friend who doesnt understand why Muslims fast in Ramadan...their letter had to stress the social, biological, spiritual etc benefits of fasting. I stressed that they must present Islam/fasting etc in a 'beautiful way'
When I was marking their letters...I was so suprised at the way some of the children began their letters. It was..."Dear Kafir" or "Dear Infidel" etc (??)
I have never EVER taught an lesson or delivered any lecture referring to the non Muslims as 'Kafir or infidels'...yet still, nearly every child in my class chose to refer to them in that way.
And to me...even that term strengthens the 'them and us' mentality.
While it does irritate me when muslims address me as "Kaffir" instead of any number of conventional greetings (sir, mr hamilton, dave, lte). I and any reasonable person should understand that your religion does require you to make such distinctions ergo it is not intended to be an insult.
However there are still rules of propriety about how religion is brought up. It's not the first thing you remark about a person.
What bothers me is when muslims, the media, popular culture etc equate purely Christian words/concepts with Islamic concepts. Shaheed to Martyr, Kaffir to Infidel et c. largely because our ideas of these things are not precisely the same, - especially the concept of Shaheed which potentially encompasses activities Christians consider blasphemous.
Listening to that rake whats-her-face go on and on about "martyrdom missions" instead of terrorist bombings really gets under my skin purely because she uses the word "martyr" instead of shaheed.
The equivocations are obviously not intentional, at least I prefer to think they are not, but equivocation still exists where it should not.
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