You wrote:

Thinking out loud do we need a specific topic for this? There is an option when you click "add content" to choose "image" for images. Can that be used?

Ideas?

It would be good if there was an 'add image from PC' option when posting.

This is at Blue Planet Aquarium. Wouldnt mind doing it again.

">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqgGGO2rZ-E]

Not him again.

You weren't supposed to acknowledge the post

I couldn't help myself.

The guy in the video mixes up Imam Shafi'i's definition of Bid'ah with the one of Ibn Taymiyyah and then uses to consequences of the OTHER (while possibly rejecting the validity of the definition he actually used) to make his point.

Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah's definition of Bid'ah is simple - anything which CONTRADICTS the Qur'an or sunnah is Bid'ah (where new things that don't are only classed it in a linguistic sense, not religious sense).

An example of this is the clear commands from Qur'an and sunnah against Murder and the clear rules of war that have been laid down. Now you have many "jihadi" groups going around committing mass murder in the name of jihad and "for the sake of Islam". Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah's definition is clear that their actions are bid'ah and they will go to hellfire.

That is where this applies.

mashallah

i can still remember that famous incident where you claimed a nawfal salah to be a bidah and this proves a person can innovate new salah

and now you go around claiming a scholar or student of knowledge to be twisting around text

this brother knows arabic he is reading the real ibn taymiyyah book not a  english translation which could be falwed but you will have no idea

i also remember a membe rin this forum stating

"we sufis helped the british to take down mujahids for......"

which further shows why sufis from that time to today shouldnt be trusted in jihad

you have become like the shias a sword with 2 ends which will strike both sides like al hasan ibn ali ra and his brother hussain ra famously stated

Deflection.

For those interested, a couple of years ago, I quoted Ummul Mu'mineen Hadhrat Aisha Siddeeqa state that the prophet did not pray a specific nafl prayer. I understood this to mean it wasnt read before, I was corrected. I accepted that I was wrong on this matter, which is what we all should do when we are presented with the Qur'an and sunnah. I think that is the correct way to do things - when presented by new information, to actually consider it.

I don't just argue for the sake of it. If I am presented with information, I consider it. I would advise you to do the same, as otherwise you are intentionally blinding yourself for the sake of ego and to look "bigger and badder".

(You on the other hand rather than accept that your understanding could be flawed, instead stated multiple times that Amir ul Mu'mineen Umar al Farooq (ra) was wrong in his understanding of Islam by calling something a good innovation...)

But even here, the real issue is being ignored by jumping into a personal confrontation instead of discussing the issue at hand: the contents of the youtube video you posted. I think he is clearly wrong. So wrong that if he applied his own logic fully, he cannot post on youtube as he should also consider that an equal bid'ah (and every bid'ah leads to hellfire...).

I have given an explanation on the two definitions of bid'ah, how the competing schools considered it in Islamic history, including the earlier view as represented by Imam Shafi'i and the later view as presented by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah.

The guy in the video is wrong because he used one definition but misapplies it with the conclusion for the other definition - now we can hide behind words such as not attacking other students etc, but here he is clearly misleading those that watch, so we must point out the errors of what he is preaching.

I have also given a real world example of what the correct understanding is.

I have heard a few of this guys videos and they all seem to contain hyperbole.

According to your understanding of Islam, no one can even decide to pray nafl unless they can be proven to have been prayed before (in which case, there would be no need for a nafl categorisation - they would be sunnah.), or even regularly do a good deed even though Islam actually encourages this.

first of all umar ibn al khattab in bidah lets see if its bidah

mam Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 

This indicates that praying qiyaam in Ramadaan is one of the Sunnahs of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and is recommended and encouraged. It was not introduced by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, rather he revived something that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) loved and approved of. Nothing stopped him from doing it regularly except the fear that it might be made obligatory upon his ummah. He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was kind and compassionate towards his ummah. ‘Umar knew from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that the obligatory duties would not be increased or decreased after his death (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), so he revived this practice and enjoined it upon the people. That happened in 14 AH, and ‘Umar has the honour of being the one who revived this Sunnah.  

Al-Tamheed, 8/108, 109 

After the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) prayed Taraweeh in small groups and individually, until ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) united them behind a single imam. 

It was narrated that ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Abd al-Qaari’ said: I went out with ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) one night in Ramadaan to the mosque, and the people were scattered, with one man praying by himself and another with a group of men following his prayer. ‘Umar said: “I think that if I gather them behind one reader, it will be better.” Then he decided to unite them behind Ubayy ibn Ka’b. Then I went out with him on another night, and the people were praying behind their reader. ‘Umar said: “What a good innovation this is. But the prayer that they forget about and sleep is better than the one they are offering.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1906. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said, when refuting the view of those who quoted ‘Umar’s words “What a good innovation this is” as meaning that innovation (bid’ah) is permissible: 

With regard to qiyaam in Ramadaan, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) introduced this to his ummah, and he led them in prayer for a number of nights, because at his time they used to pray in congregation and individually. But he did not persist in leading them in one congregation, lest that be made obligatory for them. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, sharee’ah was established (and would not change after that). When ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) became caliph, he united them behind one imam, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, who united the people in one congregation on the orders of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him). ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) was one of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, of whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I urge you to adhere to my Sunnah and the way of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs after me; cling tightly to it.” So what he did was Sunnah but he said, “What a good innovation this is,” because it was an innovation in the linguistic sense, as they were doing something that they had not done during the life of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), i.e., gathering to do this, but it is Sunnah in the shar’i sense.”  

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 22/234, 235 

It was narrated in al-Saheehayn from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would forgo doing something that he liked to do lest the people do it and it become obligatory upon them. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1060; Muslim, Salaat al-Musaafireen, 1174). 

Al-Nawawi said: This shows how kind he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was and how compassionate towards his ummah. 

So there is no basis for saying that Taraaweeh prayer is not part of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather it is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but he forsook it for fear that it may be made obligatory upon his ummah. When he died, this concern no longer applied. Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was distracted by the wars against the apostates and his reign was short, lasting only two years. When the reign of ‘Umar came and the Muslims became secure and victorious, he commanded the people to gather together for Taraaweeh prayers in Ramadaan, as they used to gather with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). All that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) did was to go back to that Sunnah and revive it. And Allaah is the Source of strength.

showing ego to a guy like you has no value

">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjvihaKKhUA]

you cut and paste yet you do not understand.

Taravih as a regular prayer in jama'ah was not carried out before.

Hadhrat Umar (ra) started this practice.

Moreover he himself recognised this as a new practice and called it a bid'ah.

So no, I will not accept your words.

I will mention though that you manage to fall into this trap every time because you do not understand the definition of bid'ah - either definition, the earlier one or the later one proposed by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. If you would understand either, you would not flounder, because it is simple:

If you go by the classical early definition as defined by Hadhrat Umar (ra) and later confirmed by Imam Shafi'i, every new thing is bid'ah, but there is a distinction between bid'ah which is evil to which is not - the distinction is you compare it to qur'an and sunnah - if it contradicts (like the justifications used by many jihadi groups), then it is an evil innovation.

Or you can choose the later definition, as favoured by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. According to his definition, if it does not contradict Qur'an and sunnah, its not Bid'ah, but just linguistic. If however it does contradict the Qur'an and sunnah, then it is bid'ah and it is evil.

Now going back onto topic, the issue of Jum'ah mubarak - I do not know when this started. Looking at its content, it is a form of glad tidings and contains nothing that contradicts qur'an and sunnah.

If this glad tiding was started "later on", then according to the definition by Caliph Umar (ra) and Imam SHafi'i , it is bid'ah. But as it does not contract the Qur'an or sunnah, it is not evil.

Or if you look it under the definition favoured by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah, as it does not contradict Wur'an and sunnah, it can only be considered a bid'ah in a linguistic sense and NOT a religious sense.

How come whenever you come on, your focus is to eg stop people giving glad tidings, from reading nafl prayer, from reciting the qur'an, learning about Islam, recognising the glories and mercies from God and praising the prophet as commanded in the Qur'an?

Surely that would be from the checklist for a devils advocate?

• Prevent people from rememerbing their lord/praying: check
• Prevent people from gaining attachment to their religion through reciting the Qur'an/religious events: check
• prevent people from trying to improve themselves: check
• Prevent people from developing love for God and their Prophet (saw): check
• Make takir: check

You guys are killing the good vibes of this thread.

You wrote:

you cut and paste yet you do not understand.

Taravih as a regular prayer in jama'ah was not carried out before.

Hadhrat Umar (ra) started this practice.

Moreover he himself recognised this as a new practice and called it a bid'ah.

So no, I will not accept your words.

I will mention though that you manage to fall into this trap every time because you do not understand the definition of bid'ah - either definition, the earlier one or the later one proposed by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. If you would understand either, you would not flounder, because it is simple:

If you go by the classical early definition as defined by Hadhrat Umar (ra) and later confirmed by Imam Shafi'i, every new thing is bid'ah, but there is a distinction between bid'ah which is evil to which is not - the distinction is you compare it to qur'an and sunnah - if it contradicts (like the justifications used by many jihadi groups), then it is an evil innovation.

Or you can choose the later definition, as favoured by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah. According to his definition, if it does not contradict Qur'an and sunnah, its not Bid'ah, but just linguistic. If however it does contradict the Qur'an and sunnah, then it is bid'ah and it is evil.

Now going back onto topic, the issue of Jum'ah mubarak - I do not know when this started. Looking at its content, it is a form of glad tidings and contains nothing that contradicts qur'an and sunnah.

If this glad tiding was started "later on", then according to the definition by Caliph Umar (ra) and Imam SHafi'i , it is bid'ah. But as it does not contract the Qur'an or sunnah, it is not evil.

Or if you look it under the definition favoured by Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah, as it does not contradict Wur'an and sunnah, it can only be considered a bid'ah in a linguistic sense and NOT a religious sense.

i see your still the same deaf dumb and blind you were  a year ago

This is indicated by the Sunnah and the actions of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). 

1 – al-Bukhaari (1129) and Muslim (761) narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed one night in the mosque, and the people followed him in prayer. Then he prayed the next night, and many people came. Then they gathered on the third or fourth night, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not come out to them. The next morning he said: “I saw what you did, and nothing kept me from coming out to you except the fact that I feared that it would be made obligatory for you.” And that was in Ramadaan. 

This indicates that praying Taraweeh in congregation is prescribed according to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but he refrained from doing it because he feared that it would be made obligatory for the ummah. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, this reservation was no longer required, because the sharee’ah was established. 

2 – al-Tirmidhi (806) narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever prays qiyaam – i.e., Taraweeh – with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded as if he spent the whole night in prayer.”  

 Saheeh al-Tirmidhi. 

3 – al-Bukhaari (2010) narrated that ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Abd al-Qaari said: I went out with ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) to the mosque one night in Ramadaan, and the people were scattered, each man praying by himself. Some men would pray and have groups of people behind them following them. ‘Umar said: “I think that if I unite all these people with one reader, it will be better. Then he resolved to gather them behind Ubayy ibn Ka’b. 

if you dont understand this then learn arabic and read these hadith in arabic so you can understand it

as for linguistic bidah vs bidah repeating the same thing with you is a waste of time for you are uneducated in arabic language and literature so you wont even understand what i say here 

and lastly i want to end with a hadith of ibn abbas ra

a man came and asked ibn abbas ra a question so ibn ababs ra gave him the answer using a hadith then men replied back saying but abubakr ra said this not quoted based on a hadith, so ibn abbas ra responded back by saying i show you the saying of muhammad saw and you are telling me abubakr ra is saying this who do you do you follow abu bakr ra views/ijtihaad or the direct words of muhammad saw

now i say the same thing to you i show you muhammad saw quotes regarding taraweeh and you start of bad by misquoting umar ibn al khattab ra then after that follow that misquoted quote of his over the hadith direct saying of muhamamd saw

and this shows how fake you sufis are you are not only cowards but you are in the level where you pretend to love muhammad saw dont love him for real, you pick and choose and add lies to him and call this love, this is false love, if you truly loved muhammad saw you wouldve followed him not made up lies on him,

you are the shia equivalents the only difference is they do the exact same thing with ali ra

and they do this in the name of love and you make the same excuse its no surprise your so similar

here muhammad saw himself is saying do taraweeh but i am not doing it because i fear it will be made obligatory

instead of praising muhammad saw for his mercy of not making taraweeh obligatory by not offering in jamaah and he decided to do it alone despite wanted to and loving to do taraweeh in jamaah you go around making lies on hadith openly reject it and follow something else

you a guy who agrees that a person can create a new salah its no surpries to see you agreeing that a person can create a new dua or a new dhikr new greeting

do you and your followers still use asalamualaikum or have you replaced that with a  new innovated greeting 

instead of assalaamualaikum you mustve replaced salaam with sufialaikum or your grand sheikhs name like shia do with ali ra in ther greeting and adhan in saying that how do you do the azaan now the same as it was or a new one has already been ro in the process of being innvoated

and have you also created a second hajj and a second ramadan or turned 5 times a day salah into 6 7 10

You wrote:

How come whenever you come on, your focus is to eg stop people giving glad tidings, from reading nafl prayer, from reciting the qur'an, learning about Islam, recognising the glories and mercies from God and praising the prophet as commanded in the Qur'an?

Surely that would be from the checklist for a devils advocate?

• Prevent people from rememerbing their lord/praying: check
• Prevent people from gaining attachment to their religion through reciting the Qur'an/religious events: check
• prevent people from trying to improve themselves: check
• Prevent people from developing love for God and their Prophet (saw): check
• Make takir: check

 

did i ever come here and say dont do tahajjud,  or say dont do dhikr of saying subhanallah 33 times and the rest, or say dont pray your salah stop praying 5 times a day, did i say dont say taqaballahu mina waminkum, or say stop reciting the quran, did i say stop loving allah and his messenger saw the halal way, did i call you or any member kafir even though i caught you lying many times

everytime i came here i said dont do things that wasnt done by the prophet saw his sahaba and the salafs, and follow dont innvoate

i even showed that you dont follow the aqeedah of the 4 imams nor follow their fiqh further proving your actions wrong

do all that but do it in the way allah and his messenger saw taught you the way the first 3 generation taught us

but what do you do follow deviants like ibn arabi and the clown tahirul qadri and yes i know we have fans of his here and im sure my ban is coming again

You quoted a hadith where the prophet refrained from praying it with jama'ah every night and actually gave a reason for deliberately taking this decision (as opposed to there being more important things like having to preach...).

Caliph Umar starts Taraveeh with Jama'ah, HE HIMSELF recognises this as bid'ah.

This is the point you do not get. I don't care if you consider it bid'ah or not, I care what Calip Umar (ra) considered it as. His words are clear. He called it bid'ah.

(i'll choose not to use a larger font.)

(I doubt that image is from sahih Bukhari or the Qur'an...)

You wrote:

You quoted a hadith where the prophet refrained from praying it with jama'ah every night and actually gave a reason for deliberately taking this decision (as opposed to there being more important things like having to preach...).

Caliph Umar starts Taraveeh with Jama'ah, HE HIMSELF recognises this as bid'ah.

This is the point you do not get. I don't care if you consider it bid'ah or not, I care what Calip Umar (ra) considered it as. His words are clear. He called it bid'ah.

(i'll choose not to use a larger font.)

(I doubt that image is from sahih Bukhari or the Qur'an...)

let me make the quote bigger for you since you cant see

1 – al-Bukhaari (1129) and Muslim (761) narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed one night in the mosque, and the people followed him in prayer. Then he prayed the next night, and many people came. Then they gathered on the third or fourth night, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not come out to them. The next morning he said: “I saw what you did, and nothing kept me from coming out to you except the fact that I feared that it would be made obligatory for you.” And that was in Ramadaan. 

And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.And that was in Ramadaan.

In your quotation of the hadit, the prophet said words meaning something like:

I saw what you did, and nothing kept me from coming out to you except the fact that I feared that it would be made obligatory for you.

ie the prophet deliberately did not pray it in jama'ah that night.

Now mr scholar, tell me what does that make it? the act where the prophet deliberately refrains from an action has importance.

By belittling this you are belittling the active decision by the prophet (saw).

You want to throw quotes without understanding. The Prophet not doing something matters.

You wrote:

In your quotation of the hadit, the prophet said words meaning something like:

I saw what you did, and nothing kept me from coming out to you except the fact that I feared that it would be made obligatory for you.

ie the prophet deliberately did not pray it in jama'ah that night.

Now mr scholar, tell me what does that make it? the act where the prophet deliberately refrains from an action has importance.

By belittling this you are belittling the active decision by the prophet (saw).

You want to throw quotes without understanding. The Prophet not doing something matters.

instead of being deaf dumb and blind why not use your common sense and carry onr eading then you would read this

2 – al-Tirmidhi (806) narrated that Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever prays qiyaam – i.e., Taraweeh – with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded as if he spent the whole night in prayer.”  
 Saheeh al-Tirmidhi. 
3 – al-Bukhaari (2010) narrated that ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Abd al-Qaari said: I went out with ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) to the mosque one night in Ramadaan, and the people were scattered, each man praying by himself. Some men would pray and have groups of people behind them following them. ‘Umar said: “I think that if I unite all these people with one reader, it will be better. Then he resolved to gather them behind Ubayy ibn Ka’b. 

so muhammad saw didnt continue to lead them himself but he told and allowed the sahaba ra to continue whether alone or jamaah and they carried on doing this until umar ra decided to revive it back to the way muhammad sa woriginally did it why because now the fear of allah making ti obligatory was gone meaning the reason why muhammad saw stopped doing this was gone so the reason not to do it was gone so they could continue

It says in Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi: 

In the book on night prayer (qiyaam): it was said to Ahmad ibn Hanbal: Do you prefer a man to pray with the people in Ramadaan or on his own? He said: He should pray with the people. He said: And I prefer that he should pray with the imam and pray Witr with him. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If a man prays qiyaam with the imam until he finishes, it will be recorded as if he spent the rest of the night (in prayer).” Ahmad (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “He should pray with the people until he prays Witr with them, and he should not leave until the imam leaves. Abu Dawood said: I saw him (Imam Ahmad) – in the month of Ramadaan, praying Witr with his imam, except on one night when I did not attend. Ishaaq (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: I said to Ahmad: Is praying qiyaam in Ramadaan in congregation dearer to you or praying on one’s own? He said: I prefer that this prayer should be offered in congregation, so as to revive the Sunnah. And Ishaaq said the same. End quote. 

See al-Mughni, 1/457. 

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

You wrote:

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

al-Haafiz said: 

Ibn al-Teen and others said that ‘Umar based this decision on the Prophet’s approval of those who prayed with him on those nights. Although he disliked that for them, that was based on the fear that it might be made obligatory for them. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, there was no longer any fear of that happening, and ‘Umar thought, because of the potential division that might arise from people praying separately, and because uniting them behind one reader is more motivating for many people. The majority agreed with ‘Umar’s decision. End quote from Fath al-Baari. 

Al-Nawawi said in al-Majmoo’, 3/526: 
">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKuiydE3R_Q]

">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkBgmhYwhsk]

you ignored the question. I am keeping it simple.

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

You wrote:

you ignored the question. I am keeping it simple.

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

the answer of this is in the video

You wrote:

you ignored the question. I am keeping it simple.

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

and in the words of the classical schoar but since you dont even know arabic someone like you wont even know whats goign on here in this quote

classical scholar? I didnt know they had youtube or video cameras in the times of the saliheen.

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

You wrote:

classical scholar? I didnt know they had youtube or video cameras in the times of the saliheen.

Did Caliph Umar (ra) call it bid'ah?

being a idiot again

al-Haafiz said: 

Ibn al-Teen and others said that ‘Umar based this decision on the Prophet’s approval of those who prayed with him on those nights. Although he disliked that for them, that was based on the fear that it might be made obligatory for them. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, there was no longer any fear of that happening, and ‘Umar thought, because of the potential division that might arise from people praying separately, and because uniting them behind one reader is more motivating for many people. The majority agreed with ‘Umar’s decision. End quote from Fath al-Baari. 

Al-Nawawi said in al-Majmoo’, 3/526: 

Caliph Imar (ra) called it bid'ah.

Caliph Umar (ra) also saw it as a good thing.

So we read taravih by Jama'ah. We see it as a good thing.

Now this is important information when setting precedents.

This discussion started when you posted something calling a glad tiding bid'ah.

Now I have shown how following the example of Caliph Umar (ra).

I also showed how that is the way used by Imam Shafi'i, and how the same glad tidings are compatible with the teachings of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah.

Yet you refuse to understand.

May I request that a new forum post is created named "Rants of Abulabbasassaffah" in which he may speak all he likes rather than interfere in other places which don't relate to what he would like to address. 'You' has the patience, mashaAllah to deal with such people so he can reply there too. Thank you. 

Jummah Mubarak