"chm1" wrote:

Quote:

I also think that the sucide bombers shouldn't target children and I condemn that, does '100' condemn this? I wonder.....

Suicide bombers shouldn't target anyone. Full stop.

There is no-one out there who deserves to be killed for no reason.

These bombers are clearly deluded-there is no way they will enter the gardens of paradise.

They are not fighting in the way of Allah and Islam. They are going against the teachings of our peaceful and tranqiul religion.

Why is this concept so hard for everyone to grasp... especially the non-muslims?

Not even soldiers?

I'm don't have much knowledge about this matter in Islamic terms so I'm sorry if I say anything wrong but my understanding upon Jihad is that first the believer must confront the disbeliever and explain to him/her about Islam and ask him to believe in Allah and his messenger. And only when he/she refuses, the believer should fight in the way of Allah.

These suicide bombers are just blowing up themselves without giving the people a chance to see the truth.

If they want to be shaheed and fight for Islam why can't they fight witout having to resort to suicide?

Suicide is haraam in Islam anyway.

lol.

(I hope you meant the first part as a joke, otherwise please do not join the Army!)

Suicide is haraam.

However in the case of Palestine, many have argued there is not other way to fight the well equipped army.

In extreme cases the shariah does not apply.

Admin,

The Israeli army is not fighting the Palestinians. It has long been trying to work a final settlement on withdrawing from disputed land, and not itself being vanquished. Some Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. Some are saying the aim is to eradicate Israel with the help of Muslim countries. It is a terrorist war. The Israeli military is a serious army. You don't mess. Terrorism is disgusting.

If you refuse to distinguish soldiers from terrorists you clearly support terrorism against civilians in any warring country with an army bigger than it's enemy's. That is a pretty shameful logic.

chm1, I grasp what you're saying very well. Not so everyone. Don't kid yourself it's the one non-Muslim in the room.

Islamic Brother,

Been a pleasure replying.

Its a political, geographic war.

Very good.

"Admin" wrote:

Its a political, geographic war.

still doesnt make it right

"muslim_kuri" wrote:

"Admin" wrote:

Its a political, geographic war.

still doesnt make it right

Fighting for freedom is wrong?

New motto: let the oppressed stay oppressed! wahay, and end to war is at hand!

"100" wrote:

Admin,

The Israeli army is not fighting the Palestinians. It has long been trying to work a final settlement on withdrawing from disputed land, and not itself being vanquished. Some Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. Some are saying the aim is to eradicate Israel with the help of Muslim countries. It is a terrorist war. The Israeli military is a serious army. You don't mess. Terrorism is disgusting.

If you refuse to distinguish soldiers from terrorists you clearly support terrorism against civilians in any warring country with an army bigger than it's enemy's. That is a pretty shameful logic.

chm1, I grasp what you're saying very well. Not so everyone. Don't kid yourself it's the one non-Muslim in the room.

Islamic Brother,

Been a pleasure replying.

100, The Israeli army is not fighting the palestinians...... hahahhahahah...that made me laugh...

they are fighting terrorists!!!!!! Hamas!!!!
i dont think so....

i dont agree with suicide bombers because I dont think it achieves anything but i can understand them. israel kill spalestinian civilians , and as a counter attack Palestininians kill Israeli. Eye for an Eye.

When Palestinian houses are knocked down, when their land is occupied, when alot of fathers, mothers, sons, daugters have been killed by Israel then you respond. then Israel is your enemy and u will do anything to hurt them. You can say this is terrorism then u have to say that Israel govt and army carries out state terrorism. if u dont admit that then dont accuse others of terrorism when u are in denial about the Israeli army and govt.

Some Islamic scholars have said the only type of suicide attacks which can be seemed as permissible due to absolute neccresity and there being no other choice and that is in Israel.

You suck bigtime.

*For this insightful post 100 was awarded an honorary comments degree by the University of Oxford*

100,
when we disagree with u and highlight the truth and reality , your reply is 'you suck'. how clever.

but its ok for u to rant and rave for eternity about Islamic terrorists..

mmmmhhhhhh....

The Revival awards you a special shield for Incredible Denial.

It is because I very frequently make the point that any innocents the IDF kills are a tragedy. I make the point that Israel acknowledges this sombrely and responds appropriately, self-critically and with restraint. Israel's war is with the terrorists, and when the terrorism stops Israel can make serious just concessions even with details to be negotiated and ensure peace and justice. On the other hand, Palestinian terrorists have no problem stashing arms in schools, raising children to hero-worship terrorist 'martyrs' and kill and be killed for the destruction of Israel. That is not something Israel can respond to directly, the Palestinian leadership needs to respond to that, if a willing Israel is genuinely to be a partner. So you can expect that equating the IDF with Hamas and Hizbollah may be for you but not for me. I for one do not believe an imminent showdown should be in anybody's plans, over the chance to have the Palestinian and Israeli states living in peace for the first time and forever.

"Some Islamic scholars" are idiots.

100,
no 'the some islamic scholars' are not idiots, i can see where they are coming from - you cant.. why do you care if thousands of palestinins have died in the last few years by Israelis? what do u expect the palestinins to do .... work out a peace plan with the terrorist Sharon under the leadership of George Bush, responsible for the illegal and attrocious war on Iraq- I dont think so!

what makes me laugh is ' when palestianans stop the terrorism then israel will start the just concessions'. well when israel ends its illgeal occupation then i think thats when when palestininas will stop their attacks. why do u think the attacks exist? because of the occupation. and because israelis kill innocent palestinins and give the palestininas hell. Palestinians have no land, have no home, have no freedom, have no basic human rights- they have no life- NOTHING!!!!

i think when israel also stops its terrorism, occupation, oppression, subjugation, interegation against the people of israel then the palestininan population will take israel seriously....ONLY then do we have a chance of peace.

many many jews orthadox or not, condemn the actions of Israel.. all over the world.. not only the jews.. the muslims, christians, hindus..

the plot in Palestine and Israel, is complicated, yet very simple..

i find it very disturbing when u have a few who will go to any extents to justify the illegal actions of Israel against the palestinians..

yep muslims condemn suicide bombers, killing of innocents.. its sad that people do not see its wrong to shoot little kids.

reminds me of a film i watched the other day.. Hotel Rwanda, where they started killing the children of one of the tribes in Rwanda to completely wipe out the next generation.. top film id recommend anyone to watch it.

Hello,

100,

I'm not as I have said before, a Muslim. I really can only see things for what they are in this situation, without the cultural, religious emotional barriers to open mindedness.

Israel is an occupying force, occupying on the grounds, as I understand it of a God given right to the land, and not much else of any substance.

Please enlighten me if I am completely off the mark.

Can you explain why you feel that justifying or not condeming a tyranical, murderous, occupation, based on oppression, murder, land grabbing and initially with the assistance of terrorist activity is any more or less a matter of murderous intent and oppression than suicide bombers murdering innocent civillians......

......please.

:twisted:

"Ging Ging" wrote:

Hello,

100,

I'm not as I have said before, a Muslim. I really can only see things for what they are in this situation, without the cultural, religious emotional barriers to open mindedness.

Israel is an occupying force, occupying on the grounds, as I understand it of a God given right to the land, and not much else of any substance.

Please enlighten me if I am completely off the mark.

Can you explain why you feel that justifying or not condeming a tyranical, murderous, occupation, based on oppression, murder, land grabbing and initially with the assistance of terrorist activity is any more or less a matter of murderous intent and oppression than suicide bombers murdering innocent civillians......

......please.

:twisted:

well, what can i say Ging Ging...you took the words out of my mouth.

Thanks Ging Ging, that's a really considered argument, I don't know how to respond.

[url=http://www.memritv.org/]Here's some more definitions of terrorism.[/url]

Revival Editor,

Your claims that Israeli withdrawals would meet with an end to attacks are [url=http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml;?itemNo=596834&contrass... unconfirmed[/url] and have never been borne out. I see you are consumed with that dejection about the worth of Palestinian lives that enables them to become great shahidin and [url=http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3111465,00.html]create a bright future[/url]. God bless.[/url]

Hello,

100,

Thats exactly what it is though, although argument is a bit too strong a word.

Respond with your view you sarcastic little fellow.

I think it is realistic, none-judgemental, factual and open to clarification, that was / is the invitation. I was in no way implying that I know ALL of the facts just the glaringly obvious.

I ask again 100, what is the justification for the Israeli occupation, the need for a home land, God given right, greed, because Israel can. I know that that sounds sarcastic but I really would like the facts.

You appear to be able, or want to defend / justify the actions of Israel with silence and / or by deflecting the question, or giving some almost undecipherable answer or saying things like ".......when the suicide bombing stops so will the Israeli response." That is so simplistic.

Why not acknowledge the illegal occupation of Palestinian land and justify it with the truth as you see it, at least then you will be able to convince me and others, not that that is the most important thing, that you truly believe what Israel is doing is "right".

:twisted:

Quote:

you sarcastic little fellow.

You big arrogant tit.

Anyway are you suggesting Israel shouldn't exist?

I don't think the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is right or wrong. Egypt and Jordan wouldn't take it back and it's a conflict zone. Before Arafat Israel wasn't conducting operations there, come to think of it, if you want a salient point to show Israel's not fighting Palestinians. Now Israel's out for it's security, and happy to cede land to a Palestinian state.

You know that. Israeli security is not the determination to quash another. Terrorism is just that.

Hello,

100,

"tit" thats not very friendly, and less of the big.

Your deflecting again. Are the West Bank and Gazza the only issues for you?

It goes much deeper than that.

Am I understanding this right, the Palestinians are on land that nobody else seems to want?
The Israelis are WILLING to "cede" to the Palestinians some of their own land, that they had taken off them in the first place?
So that the Palestinians can have somewhere to live, out of the generosity and spirit of Israeli fairness and compassion.

Given that ALL of the Israeli land was TAKEN doesn't that seem a bid odd to you?

:twisted:

I'm not deflecting, I'm defining. You seem to be asking for a deep discussion of the history and as I've shown many times I'm up for it, but you seem to be saying:

"I'm non-Muslim and that makes me objective when I say 100, how do you justify this occupation?"

And I'm saying, it's as though you never read any of my positions before you come on saying that, so no, you're not getting essays from me out of the blue. Make a point of any kind, such as an assertion about the history or a response to something I've said, rather than a series of intellectual taunts. (I must say for you to get hung up on sarcasm seems especially rich the more you write, Ging Ging. Your emoticon isn't helping.).

For instance, make a proper assertion about Israel taking the land.

"100" wrote:

The Israeli army is not fighting the Palestinians. It has long been trying to work a final settlement on withdrawing from disputed land, and not itself being vanquished. Some Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. Some are saying the aim is to eradicate Israel with the help of Muslim countries. It is a terrorist war. The Israeli military is a serious army. You don't mess. Terrorism is disgusting.

You're right terrorism is disgustin, but the fact you are a jew does not justify you sayin that israeli arent to blame also, its not as black and white as that.

angel,

Show me where I've been saying otherwise.

"100" wrote:

angel,

Show me where I've been saying otherwise.

here

"100" wrote:

The Israeli army is not fighting the Palestinians. It has long been trying to work a final settlement on withdrawing from disputed land, and not itself being vanquished. Some Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. Some are saying the aim is to eradicate Israel with the help of Muslim countries. It is a terrorist war. The Israeli military is a serious army. You don't mess. Terrorism is disgusting.

You keep pointin the finger at palestine but israel is innocent accordin to you!

Angel,

What my post says and what you've surmised are not the same. It says what it says, in the context of the conversation about what constitutes terrorism. I can't but agree that there are profoundly distressing and questionable consequences, lost lives, people injured, families impoverished and homeless, as a result of deploying the military. I reflect it is the ugly nature of the core work of any military but I would like Israel to be able to extricate itself from this interminable violence. Still I can't say I have any other answer when it comes to the most determined terrorists. There is a massive difference in the intentions of Israel as against Hamas, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad etc, both in their aims and in the strategies they adopt. I assert that if the terrorism stopped Israel would be given to resolve matters to the satisfaction of those Palestinians who do not want it eradicated. You're right, my being a Jew doesn't make the world go round, I never said it did.

"100" wrote:

You're right, my being a Jew doesn't make the world go round, I never said it did.

:? and i did? nope!

True.

Hello,

Not being a Muslim in this case, certainly does allow for impartial thought on the matter. Definition is a detailed, description / account / reasoning of your thoughts on the matter, you haven't done that.

I don't want essays, I asked questions on the previous forum set up, some possibly, with as many controversial implications as this one, about "Muslim" issues and got various answers, some sent privately some nice some not so nice.

If I really don't understand the whole picture I ask. I just don't seem to be able to get a straight forward answer to a straightforward question. I don't want to discuss it in depth, I just wanted your objective, impartial view if possible.

The main question for me is, why is one side of this conflict called terrorists / murderers for murdering innocent men women and children, which I happen to kind of agree with, because they are murderers and the other "side" that have killed innocent men women and children seen as "defenders" - I suppose.

My "assertions".

ALL of the land now occupied by Israel was TAKEN from the Palestinians.
Israel is an occupying force.
Israel's army has murdered many Palestinians.
Israel has "strangled" the Palestinians right to a homeland.
Israel has OFFERED the Palestinians back their own land if they do not resist the invading Israelis. (Not just the "terrorists").

These are the major assertions that I have. Please do respond - briefly - if neccessary. If you do not think it is worth it then don't.

Thanks.

:twisted:

If I number your points 1 - 5:

1. False
2. In certain areas
3. killed. with the exception of terrorist assasinations murder is not the appropriate word, implying intent
4. Israel is access to a Palestinian homeland. It will facilitate it provided it is not still fighting parties with a declared aim to destroy Israel. The Palestinian version of this is a battle with one survivor.
5. Please make this point more clearly if you want an answer.

I could give much longer answers, but first support the asking of the questions (or prove to me that the earth is not the centre). Your questions do not recognise Israel. They also do not imply or reference any research. It's not like I'm scared of what you'll find, you wanna claim ignorance, go look it up. Or explain how you reached those conclusions.

And I have some (obvious) news for you. You are not remotely objective. It is a ridiculous claim. You could be anyone and anyone isn't objective either.

Hello,

100,

You are still not answering straight forwardly, remove your Jewish line of thought and be objective, thats all I ask.

1. Then what land is occupied that did not belong to Palestine or someone else when Israel started to occupy.

2. Again that will depend on the answer to previous questions and No1 above.

3. If the indiscriminate bombing of, firing into civillian areas is not intentionally to kill (murder), with little or no regard for the safety of civillians including women and children, them I admit I am wrong. Why have so many stone throwing CHILDREN been killed?

4 /5. That declared aim I feel comes from the belief by Palestinians that Palestine is occupied by an "invading" force, Subject to your explanation of points one and two for the sake of our discussion. You are still talking as an Israeli / Jew. Israel has done nothing wrong, Palestinians should accept what Israel and stop fighting back.

The part of No5 that you ask for clarification of will become clear when you explain why Israel is not an occupying force and is not occupying Palestinian land.

I am being objective with the facts that I have. I have said that if you read previous posts.

Thank you 100.

TTFN