"Odysseus" wrote:

11:48 am 11:56 am 12:15 pm 7:54 pm 8:16 pm 8:20 pm 8:28 pm

...Judda are you lonely?

he must be

he might jus be bored :?

aww lol go collect stamps r sumthing might un bore u

:shock: now i feel sorri 4 u

"TEX" wrote:

salam,

Dave from my experience those that despise Chomsky are usally nationalistic americans, apart from my Jewish mates in NY, thier hostility towards him is justifyable since he is againist zionism, but all those that hate him NEVER seem to refute his claims, maybe you might like to create a website to refute the claims he makes?

god bless.

PS its skool holidays, therefore i am bored,

Well if thats not the definition of a Herculean Task I don't know what is.

Yes I'm sure I'd love to do that... it's right up there with having all my teeth drilled and all my fingernails and toenails ripped out.

I have a wife, who is pregnant, a career, and a couple tests due at the end of the month. When I am not working I am usually more interested in spending time with my wife than some old new york liberal.

"TEX" wrote:

just 4 me dave:

refute ONE of his `unjust claims` about america?

PS u have PMs !!

Certainly.

From his interview with Jeremy Paxman "[url=http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20040519.htm]On American Imperialism and British Me-Tooism[/url]"

Quote:

If George Bush were to be judged by the standards of the Nuremberg Tribunals, he'd be hanged. So too, mind you, would every single American President since the end of the second world war, including Jimmy Carter.

I'm going to examine whether Jimmy Carter would be hanged under the standards of the Nuremberg Charter.

First:

"The Nuremberg Charter" wrote:

ARTICLE 1

In pursuance of the Agreement signed on the 8th day of August 1945 by the Government of the United States of America, the Provisional Government of the French Republic, the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, there shall be established an International Military Tribunal (hereafter called "the Tribunal") for the just and prompt trial and punishment of major war criminals of the European Axis.

ARTICLE 2

The Tribunal shall consist of four members, each with an alternate. One member and one alternate shall be appointed by each of the Signatories. The alternates shall, so far as they are able, be present at all sessions of the Tribunal. In case of illness of any member of the Tribunal or his incapacity for some other reason to fulfill his functions, his alternate shall take his place....

ARTICLE 6

The Tribunal established by the Agreement referred to in Article 1 hereof for the trial and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis countries shall have the power to try and punish persons who, acting in the interests of the European Axis countries, whether as individuals or as members of organizations, committed any of the following crimes.
The following acts, or any of them, are crimes coming within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal for which there shall be individual responsibility:

Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a Common Plan or Conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing;
(b) War Crimes: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity;
(c) Crimes against Humanity: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war,14 or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of domestic law of the country where perpetrated.

Leaders, organizers, instigators, and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution
of a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing crimes are responsible for all acts performed by any persons in execution of such plan.

ARTICLE 7

The official position of defendants, whether as Heads of State or responsible officials in Government departments, shall not be considered as freeing them from responsibility or mitigating punishment.

ARTICLE 8

The fact that the defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determine that justice so requires.

ARTICLE 9

At the trial of any individual member of any group or organization the Tribunal may declare (in connection with any act of which the individual may be convicted) that the group or organization of which the individual was a member was a criminal organization.
After receipt of the Indictment the Tribunal shall give such notice as it thinks fit that the Prosecution intends to ask the Tribunal to make such declaration and any member of the organization will be entitled to apply to the Tribunal for leave to be heard by the Tribunal upon the question of the criminal character of the organization. The Tribunal shall have power to allow or reject the application. If the application is allowed, the Tribunal may direct in what manner the applicants shall be represented and heard.

ARTICLE 10

In cases where a group or organization is declared criminal by the Tribunal, the competent national authority of any Signatory shall have the right to bring individuals to trial for membership therein before national, military, or occupation courts. In any such case the criminal nature of the group or organization is considered proved and shall not be questioned.

ARTICLE 11

Any person convicted by the Tribunal may be charged before a national, military, or occupation court, referred to in Article 10 of this Charter, with a crime other than of membership in a criminal group or organization and such court may, after convicting him, impose upon him punishment independent of and additional to the punishment imposed by the Tribunal for participation in the criminal activities of such group or organization....

ARTICLE 13

The Tribunal shall draw up rules for its procedure. These rules shall- not be inconsistent with the provisions of this Charter.

ARTICLE 14

Each Signatory shall appoint a Chief Prosecutor for the investigation of the charges against and the prosecution of major war criminals.
The Chief Prosecutors shall act as a committee for the following purposes:

to agree upon a plan of the individual work of each of the Chief Prosecutors and his staff,
(b) to settle the final designation of major war criminals to be tried by the Tribunal,
(c) to approve the Indictment and the documents to be submitted therewith,
(d) to lodge the Indictment and the accompanying documents with the Tribunal,
(e) to draw up and recommend to the Tribunal for its approval draft rules of procedure, contemplated by Article 13 of this Charter. The Tribunal shall have power to accept, with or without amendments, or to reject, the rules so recommended.

The Committee shall act in all the above matters by a majority vote and shall appoint a Chairman as may be convenient and in accordance with the principle of rotation: provided that if there is an equal division of vote concerning the designation of a defendant to be tried by the Tribunal, or the crimes with which he shall be charged, that proposal will be adopted which was made by the party which proposed that the particular defendant be tried, or the particular charges be preferred against him....

ARTICLE 16

In order to ensure fair trial for the defendants, the following procedure shall be followed:

'Me Indictment shall include full particulars specifying in detail the charges against the defendants. A copy of the Indictment and of all the documents lodged with the Indictment, translated into a language which he understands, shall be furnished to the defendant at a reasonable time before the Trial.
(b) During any preliminary examination or trial of a defendant he shall have the right to give any explanation relevant to the charges made against him.
(c) A preliminary examination of a defendant and his trial shall be conducted in, or translated into, a language which the defendant understands.
(d) A defendant shall have the right to conduct his own defense before the Tribunal or to have the assistance of counsel.
(e) A defendant shall have the right through himself or through his counsel to present evidence at the Trial in support of his defense, and to cross-examine any witness called by the Prosecution....

ARTICLE 18

The Tribunal shall:

confine the Trial strictly to an expeditious hearing of the issues raised by the charges,
(b) take strict measures to prevent any action which will cause unreasonable delay, and rule out irrelevant issues and statements of any kind whatsoever,
(c) deal summarily with any contumacy, imposing appropriate punishment, including exclusion of any defendant or his counsel from some or all further proceedings, but without prejudice to the determination of the charges.

ARTICLE 19

The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value....

ARNCLE 26

The judgment of the Tribunal as to the guilt or the innocence of any defendant shall give the reasons on which it is based, and shall be final and not subject to review.

ARTICLE 27

The Tribunal shall have the right to impose upon a defendant on conviction, death or such other punishment as shall be determined by it to be just.

The charges are: Crimes against the Peace, War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity - all as defined and limited to the definitions provided in Article 6.

The Defendant is Jimmy Carter President of the United States from January 20, 1977 – January 20, 1981.

The Following is a List of US military actions during the Carter Administration:

"Operation Eagle Claw"

Wikipedia Conflict Summary:

Cause of Conflict: Seizure of US embassy in Tehran

Overview:

Planned as Operation Rice Bowl, the operation was designed as a complex two-night mission. The first stage of the mission involved establishing a small staging site inside Iran itself, near the Tabas in the Yazd Province (formerly in the south of the Khorasan province) of Iran. The site, known as Desert One, was to be used as a temporary airstrip for the C-130 Hercules transport planes and RH-53D Sea Stallion minesweeper helicopters which would undertake the actual rescue operation. After refueling the helicopters, the plan was for the ground troops to board the helicopter and fly to Desert Two near Tehran. After locating and extracting the hostages from Tehran, the rescuers and rescuees would be transported by helicopter to Manzariyeh Air Base outside of Tehran, where C-130 transports would take them out of the country under the protection of fighter aircraft.

An unforeseen low-level sandstorm caused two of eight helicopters to lose their way en route to Desert One, but only after men and equipment had been assembled there. A third helicopter suffered a mechanical failure and was incapable of continuing on with the mission. Without enough helicopters to transport men and equipment to Desert Two, the mission was aborted. After the decision to abort the mission was made, one of the helicopters lost control while taking off and crashed into a C-130. In the ensuing explosion and fire, eight US servicemen were killed: five USAF aircrew in the C-130, and three USMC aircrew in the RH-53. During the evacuation, five RH-53 helicopters were left behind, intact but severely damaged by shrapnel from the burning aircraft. In their efforts to quickly evacuate the RH-53s, the aircrews left behind classified plans which identified CIA agents within Iran. Wounded personnel, mostly with serious burns, returned with the rest of the Joint Task Force (JTF) to the launch base in Oman. Two C-141 medevac aircraft from the rear staging base at Wadi Kena, Egypt picked up the injured personnel, helicopter crews, and Delta forces. The C-141s then returned to Wadi Kena. The injured personnel were then transported to Ramstein Air Base, Germany.

12 American Casualties, 0 Iranian.

Does this fit the bill for 1. Crimes against Peace? 2. War Crimes? 3. Crimes against Humanity?

1. No. The US actions do not constitute "aggression"

As definited by the Tribunal the United States neither "planned, prepared, the initiation or waging of a war of aggression."

[url=http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/(Symbol)/E.CN.4.RES.2003.40.En?Opendocument]Under both the Rome Treaty and the Geneva conventions hostage taking constitutes a war crime[/url]. As an act of aggression, war crimes are considered valid cassus belli and thus the peace was disturbed by the Iranian government's actions, not the United States. President Carter is not responsible for an act of aggression, but rather a response to an act of aggression.

2. No. Standing casualties for Iranians are 0, case fails prima facie.
3. No. Standing casualties for Iranians are 0, case fails prima facie.

Legal arguments without a judge are just that - arguments. But some arguments are more reasonable and reality based than others, Mr. Chomsky's simply is not.

havent got a clue of american history.. but a quick google brings up Indonesia and the genocide of East Timor.. with JCarter approving arms supplies to indonesia..

or have i got the wrong end of the stick?