Straw asks Muslim women for veil rethink

You —

[quote][size=18]Straw asks women for veil rethink[/size]

[b]Muslim women in the UK who wear full veils make "better, positive relations" between communities "more difficult", Commons leader Jack Straw has said.[/b]

Concealing a face was "a visible statement of separation and of difference", the Blackburn MP wrote in the Lancashire Evening Telegraph.

He said he now asks women who have meetings with him to remove their veils so they can truly talk "face-to-face".

"My concerns could be misplaced, but I think there is an issue here," he said.

The MP for Blackburn - where Muslims make up about a quarter of the population - said: "The value of a meeting, as opposed to a letter or phone call, is that you can - almost literally - see what the other person means, and not just hear what they say."

Mr Straw later told BBC Radio Lancashire that this was "an issue that needs to be discussed because in our society, we are able to relate, particularly to strangers, by being able to read their faces, and if you can't read people's faces, that does provide some separation".

He said he understood why some women wanted to be covered, citing a recent meeting with a constituent who "said she felt more comfortable when she was outside wearing the veil and she was less troubled by people".

"What I'm saying on the other side is, would those people who do wear the veil think about the implications for community relations," he said.

[b]'Selective discrimination'[/b]

Mr Straw was home secretary from 1997 to 2001, and then foreign secretary until 2005, a period which included the build-up to, and invasion of Iraq.

He said he always made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to remove their veil - and his constituents had so far always agreed when he had asked.

Mr Straw also said he defended the right for women to wear headscarfs - which, he said, was the issue in France which had led to recent controversy.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission claimed his request would lead to "selective" discrimination.

"It is astonishing that someone as experienced and senior as Jack Straw does not realise that the job of an elected representative is to represent the interests of the constituency, not to selectively discriminate on the basis of religion," said Massoud Shadjareh.

But Dr Daud Abdullah of the Muslim Council of Britain said it was up to individual Muslim women whether to wear the veil, adding he understodd the matter "does cause some discomfort to non-Muslim".

"Even within the Muslim community the scholars have different views on this.

"Our view is that if it is going to cause discomfort and that can be avoided then it can be done. The veil over the hair is obligatory."

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5410472.stm]BBC News[/url][/quote]

Forum

TEX — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 13:03

[quote="stmark"]I agree with everything you have said[/quote]

Brother have u actaully read the [i]whole[/i] thread??

so you agree with me when i say tha person "X" should be allowed to walk round stark naked because the god of `his religion`would put him in hell for wearing clothes?

Imaani — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 15:14

[quote="stmark"][quote="Imaani"]I am absolutely sick to death of non-muslims having a go at Islam. They make no attempt whatsoever to even try to understand, before spreading so much hate. Today there has been so much in the news regarding Islam, and of course all negative. It makes me so angry. It just seems to get worse and worse as every day goes by.[/quote]It doesn't have any thing to do with islam. It has to do with security. All the scholors that I have read say it'ss not required and to non muslims you all look scary in those things. A poll in the daily express says 96 percent of the brits want it banned. If you want to walk around looking like members of the ku klux klan you should move to an islamic country because I expect it will be banned in the near future.[/quote]

I meant in general, not just regarding this niqab issue. That is [i]my[/i] view. I dont expect you, as a non-muslim, to agree.

I dont wear the niqab, but I believe everyone has the right to wear what they choose.

You say it's about security. No, it isnt.

The Sun article you provided clearly stated: Home Office rules say the eyes, nose and mouth must be clearly visible in passports and that ALL travellers will be asked to lift their veils - if they wish in a private room in front of a female official.

So the niqab itself poses no security threat.

Yes that journalist did breech security, but as Yashmaki wrote in a previous post, "You dont have to wear a niqab to breach security or even be a muslim as many journalists have shown in the aftermath of 9/11."

You believe everyone has the right to feel safe in their country, so do I. That is why I think airport security staff need to be more vigilant regarding this issue and all the other issues previous undercover journalists have raised.

That article highlighted flaws in the checks carried out at airports. Why should the niqab be banned just because airport staff are not doing their job properly?

Imaani — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 16:08

[quote="stmark"]

Last night aviation expert David Learmount said: “[b]This is an area that can be exploited and has been in the past. In 1994 two Chechen women wearing full Muslim dress were able to board planes out of Moscow with bombs strapped under their clothing. I am sure airport staff in the UK don’t want to wait until two planes are blown out of the sky to get over their embarrassment[/b][/quote]

David Learmont's example isn't about the niqab - the face veil. It has moved on, just as most Muslims predicted it would.

So are you going to ask nuns to remove their attire too? And what about all those young wannabe gangsta's with their oversized sweatshirts and baggy jeans?

stmark - you ask, 'why can't muslims wear a regular blouse and pants?' Who says they don't??? You say a lot of muslims in the US do. Well, a lot of muslims here in the UK do as well.

I am perfectly aware of the Klu Klux Klan. Of course I wouldn't feel comfortable around them, because I know what they stand for.

However the niqab shouldnt be offensive to you. You have absolutely nothing to fear. Women who choose to wear it, do so as an expression of their devoutness to their religion. It isn't about you.

Children and adults fear many things, but the important thing to remember is that fear is learn't, and therefore taught. So if you can teach a child to fear monsters, you can teach a child to not fear monsters.

As adults we are responsible for our own fears. If there is something we fear we need to educate ourselves about it, or at least attempt to learn when others try educate us.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 19:20

[quote="Exquisite"][quote="stmark"][quote="Exquisite"][color=magenta]and many who disagree with his comments too, and there is freedom of religion so if she wants to wear a niqaab she shud do so freely[/color][/quote]Would you feel comfortable around someone in a ku klux klan outfit? You can't expect them to feel comfortable around that, espeally kids.[/quote]
[color=magenta]
you cant compare to that, the ku klux klan used to terrorise people whereas sisters in niqaabs have no intention of doin that[/color]
[quote]
[/color][/quote]I was talking about the outfit not the woman.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 19:32

[quote="Noor...*"][b][color=indigo]Sis no point in bothering with them. It ovious that ther view on the niqaab isnt going to change.[/color][/b][/quote]I'm from america but if it's a matter of security I don't expect the brits will change their mind. The ones I've communicated with say they're tired of living like dhimmis in their own country.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 19:41

[quote="TEX"]I seriously doubt it would be banned

however `scary` it looks[/quote]I wouldn't count on it. If it is a matter of security your relitgion won't matter to most brits.

Seraphim — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 19:47

[quote][b]Minister backs university ban on Muslim veils[/b]

LONDON (Reuters) - Higher Education Minister Bill Rammell said on Wednesday he backed universities that banned Islamic students from wearing veils, becoming the latest senior figure to step into a high profile row that has enraged some Muslim groups.

Rammell said many teachers felt "uncomfortable" teaching students who wore a full veil and said he supported London's Imperial College which had banned
(Advertisement)
students wearing any garment that covered the face.

"Imperial College recently banned the face veil and I think that this is arguably the best decision," Rammell told the London Evening Standard. "I'm not dictating hard and fast rules, as dress codes are a matter for university authorities."

Unlike some other European countries -- such as France, which limits the wearing of traditional headscarves in schools -- Britain generally does not place restrictions on Islamic dress.

The Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS) said the minister was out of tune with the vast majority of students.

"We firmly believe that any student of any background should be entitled to wear what they wish, so long as it falls within the legal framework of the country," said FOSIS spokesman Amar Latif.

"No student should be forced to choose between their education and their religion."

Controversy over veils erupted last week when Commons leader Jack Straw said Muslim women who wore full veils made community relations more difficult.

He said he would prefer that women did not wear them because they acted as "a visible statement of separation and difference".

Prime Minister Tony Blair said on Tuesday he backed Straw, his former foreign secretary, for raising an important issue in a "sensible and measured way" although he avoided saying whether he agreed with him.

The debate comes amid warnings of increasing alienation and radicalisation among the country's 1.8 million Muslims.

The government wants to improve integration in the wake of last year's suicide bomb attacks by four British Islamists which killed 52 in London.

Many commentators and some senior government figures, including Chancellor Gordon Brown, have backed Straw, saying the full veil was a factor in community relations.

Salman Rushdie, who lived in hiding for years because his book "The Satanic Verses" prompted a 1989 Iranian decree that he should be killed for blasphemy, said Straw was "expressing an important opinion, which is that veils suck, which they do."

However many Muslim groups reacted with anger, describing the views as "offensive and disturbing" and saying veils were worn by only a tiny minority of women.

The country's largest Muslim organisation, the Muslim Council of Britain, warned the debate would play into the hands of those with "bigoted" views.[/quote]

so it begins...

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 19:53

[quote="TEX"][quote="stmark"]I agree with everything you have said[/quote]

Brother have u actaully read the [i]whole[/i] thread??

so you agree with me when i say tha person "X" should be allowed to walk round stark naked because the god of `his religion`would put him in hell for wearing clothes?[/quote]Yes I've read the whole thread and I thought that was a comparison. People in nudist camps might do it for religios reasons but that should not be allowed in public. You shouldn't be allowed to wear those things all the time but for religios events only.

TEX — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 20:04

[quote="stmark"] and I thought that was a comparison. [/quote]

lol it was a comparison

but at the same time i have no problem with nudists or the niqabis

I dont beleive that niqab will be banned

hardly any muslim women where it

khan — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 20:06

[quote="stmark"]If it is a security threat there is nothing wrong with it. That is one of there responsibilities to protect their citizens.[/quote]

lets not forget what sparked this debate. it was simply because jack straw didn't like it, and took offence to it.

the security stuff only came after it was discovered one guy who they refuse to name for "security reasons".. (they've not had problems naming and shaming muslims before) tried to escape in a niqaab.

the niqaab has never been a security threat before this debate, I do not see any reason why it should be one now.

TEX — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 20:19

NOBODY in this thread had sympathy for hypothetical person "X"

hey X's god sed he would put X in hell for wearing clothes

But unlike the Niqabis X is no security threat

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 20:24

[quote="Imaani"][quote="stmark"][quote="Imaani"]I am absolutely sick to death of non-muslims having a go at Islam. They make no attempt whatsoever to even try to understand, before spreading so much hate. Today there has been so much in the news regarding Islam, and of course all negative. It makes me so angry. It just seems to get worse and worse as every day goes by.[/quote]It doesn't have any thing to do with islam. It has to do with security. All the scholors that I have read say it'ss not required and to non muslims you all look scary in those things. A poll in the daily express says 96 percent of the brits want it banned. If you want to walk around looking like members of the ku klux klan you should move to an islamic country because I expect it will be banned in the near future.[/quote]

I meant in general, not just regarding this niqab issue. That is [i]my[/i] view. I dont expect you, as a non-muslim, to agree.

I dont wear the niqab, but I believe everyone has the right to wear what they choose.

You say it's about security. No, it isnt. rly?[/quote]I don't just mean at just at the airport but in general. If a kkk member came up to you in his white sherets a hat wouldn't you feel insecure around him? Why would you feel inseccure? People have a right to feel secure. It's not like they're asking muslims to wear bikinis and halter tops they just want to be able to see their faces aI don't see what the big deal about it is.

TEX — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 20:36

do you mind comparing Niqabis to the KKK?

its really offending me :evil:

at worst niqabis are just over paranoid women who beleive that men cannot control themselves....

I know deep down you can't stand muslims but there is no need to advertise your blatent islamophobic attitude on a muslim forum.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 20:56

[quote="Imaani"][quote="stmark"]

Last night aviation expert David Learmount said: “[b]This is an area that can be exploited and has been in the past. In 1994 two Chechen women wearing full Muslim dress were able to board planes out of Moscow with bombs strapped under their clothing. I am sure airport staff in the UK don’t want to wait until two planes are blown out of the sky to get over their embarrassment[/b][/quote]

David Learmont's example isn't about the niqab - the face veil. It has moved on, just as most Muslims predicted it would.

So are you going to ask nuns to remove their attire too? And what about all those young wannabe gangsta's with their oversized sweatshirts and baggy jeans?

stmark - you ask, 'why can't muslims wear a regular blouse and pants?' Who says they don't??? You say a lot of muslims in the US do. Well, a lot of muslims here in the UK do as well.

I am perfectly aware of the Klu Klux Klan. Of course I wouldn't feel comfortable around them, because I know what they stand for.

However the niqab shouldnt be offensive to you. You have absolutely nothing to fear. Women who choose to wear it, do so as an expression of their devoutness to their religion. It isn't about you. .[/quote]I'm from america and I don't know how the british mind thinks but I imagine if they think their security is threatened your religion will become irrelevant.
The lady looks similar to a kkk member when she dresses like that. I'm sorry for the comparison but they do. Why can't they wear regular slacks or jeans and a long sleaved blouse? They are still muslims and it shouldn't
take away from their muslimness.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 21:06

[quote="Seraphim"][quote][b]Minister backs university ban on Muslim veils[/b]

LONDON (Reuters) - Higher Education Minister Bill Rammell said on Wednesday he backed universities that banned Islamic students from wearing veils, becoming the latest senior figure to step into a high profile row that has enraged some Muslim groups.

Rammell said many teachers felt "uncomfortable" teaching students who wore a full veil and said he supported London's Imperial College which had banned
(Advertisement)
students wearing any garment that covered the face.

"Imperial College recently banned the face veil and I think that this is arguably the best decision," Rammell told the London Evening Standard. "I'm not dictating hard and fast rules, as dress codes are a matter for university authorities."

Unlike some other European countries -- such as France, which limits the wearing of traditional headscarves in schools -- Britain generally does not place restrictions on Islamic dress.

The Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS) said the minister was out of tune with the vast majority of students.

"We firmly believe that any student of any background should be entitled to wear what they wish, so long as it falls within the legal framework of the country," said FOSIS spokesman Amar Latif.

"No student should be forced to choose between their education and their religion."

Controversy over veils erupted last week when Commons leader Jack Straw said Muslim women who wore full veils made community relations more difficult.

He said he would prefer that women did not wear them because they acted as "a visible statement of separation and difference".

Prime Minister Tony Blair said on Tuesday he backed Straw, his former foreign secretary, for raising an important issue in a "sensible and measured way" although he avoided saying whether he agreed with him.

The debate comes amid warnings of increasing alienation and radicalisation among the country's 1.8 million Muslims.

The government wants to improve integration in the wake of last year's suicide bomb attacks by four British Islamists which killed 52 in London.

Many commentators and some senior government figures, including Chancellor Gordon Brown, have backed Straw, saying the full veil was a factor in community relations.

Salman Rushdie, who lived in hiding for years because his book "The Satanic Verses" prompted a 1989 Iranian decree that he should be killed for blasphemy, said Straw was "expressing an important opinion, which is that veils suck, which they do."

However many Muslim groups reacted with anger, describing the views as "offensive and disturbing" and saying veils were worn by only a tiny minority of women.

The country's largest Muslim organisation, the Muslim Council of Britain, warned the debate would play into the hands of those with "bigoted" views.[/quote]

so it begins...[/quote]The debate is useless, they have already made up their minds. It will soon be outlawed to wear it in public.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 21:28

[quote="TEX"]NOBODY in this thread had sympathy for hypothetical person "X"

hey X's god sed he would put X in hell for wearing clothes

But unlike the Niqabis X is no security threat[/quote]Person x should live in a nudist camp where it is appropriate to do so.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 21:55

[quote="TEX"]do you mind comparing Niqabis to the KKK?

its really offending me :evil:

at worst niqabis are just over paranoid women who beleive that men cannot control themselves....

I know deep down you can't stand muslims but there is no need to advertise your blatent islamophobic attitude on a muslim forum.[/quote]Ok it looks like they have a ski mask on. If the kkk comparison is offensive to you don't you think that veil is offensive to people? The brits have been tolerant about a lot of things but I think they have had enough.
From what I hear you have pushed them just about as far as they're going to go. Don't accuse them of not being tolerant when muslims won't give an inch. This veil thing may be the last straw and I expect there will be some changes in britan.

stmark — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 22:05

[quote="TEX"]thats discrimnation!

its wrong to ostracize X because of his religion

he's no bloody security threat so wots ur bloody problem?[/quote]It's illegal to walk around naked. My God told me to kill muslims, should I be allowed to do it. He said I'll go to hell if I don't kill muslims wherever I find them. Can I come to europe and practice my religion?

TEX — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 - 22:12

excuse me m8 but being an ethical person comes before my religion, however my relgion is mostly ethical...

duz ur god really tell u to kill muslims?

in da bible it said idol worshippers should be killed, ironically beleiving god is 3 is still monthiesm :roll: ,LOL

I'm sorry but Nudists and Niqabis DO NOT harm others

u cant compare that to murder :shock:

there must be something wrong with u if u think it is a fair comparison