Straw asks Muslim women for veil rethink

You —

[quote][size=18]Straw asks women for veil rethink[/size]

[b]Muslim women in the UK who wear full veils make "better, positive relations" between communities "more difficult", Commons leader Jack Straw has said.[/b]

Concealing a face was "a visible statement of separation and of difference", the Blackburn MP wrote in the Lancashire Evening Telegraph.

He said he now asks women who have meetings with him to remove their veils so they can truly talk "face-to-face".

"My concerns could be misplaced, but I think there is an issue here," he said.

The MP for Blackburn - where Muslims make up about a quarter of the population - said: "The value of a meeting, as opposed to a letter or phone call, is that you can - almost literally - see what the other person means, and not just hear what they say."

Mr Straw later told BBC Radio Lancashire that this was "an issue that needs to be discussed because in our society, we are able to relate, particularly to strangers, by being able to read their faces, and if you can't read people's faces, that does provide some separation".

He said he understood why some women wanted to be covered, citing a recent meeting with a constituent who "said she felt more comfortable when she was outside wearing the veil and she was less troubled by people".

"What I'm saying on the other side is, would those people who do wear the veil think about the implications for community relations," he said.

[b]'Selective discrimination'[/b]

Mr Straw was home secretary from 1997 to 2001, and then foreign secretary until 2005, a period which included the build-up to, and invasion of Iraq.

He said he always made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to remove their veil - and his constituents had so far always agreed when he had asked.

Mr Straw also said he defended the right for women to wear headscarfs - which, he said, was the issue in France which had led to recent controversy.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission claimed his request would lead to "selective" discrimination.

"It is astonishing that someone as experienced and senior as Jack Straw does not realise that the job of an elected representative is to represent the interests of the constituency, not to selectively discriminate on the basis of religion," said Massoud Shadjareh.

But Dr Daud Abdullah of the Muslim Council of Britain said it was up to individual Muslim women whether to wear the veil, adding he understodd the matter "does cause some discomfort to non-Muslim".

"Even within the Muslim community the scholars have different views on this.

"Our view is that if it is going to cause discomfort and that can be avoided then it can be done. The veil over the hair is obligatory."

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5410472.stm]BBC News[/url][/quote]

Forum

You — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 13:55

[quote="Omrow"]Could all this have anything to do with an ugly nose ?[/quote]

Or the fact that the newLabour is in a state of flux?

Straw needed to make himself heard about something, anything just not to get drowned out.

But he had nothing important to talk about. So he just decided to be totally arbitrary.

Beast — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 15:04

John Prescott is the most chauvanistic sexist cabinet minister there is. His words on this issue count for nothing. This is just the gov trying placate Muslims who've been upset by the recent hoo-ha. Prescott has been wheeled out to say [i]something[/i] conciliatory so that we don't think the gov is all bad. See how Prezza says that there is a need for debate. What debate?

The story here is not that Jack Sraw asks a very small minority of his constituents when they come to his surgery if they wouldn't mind showing their faces in the presence of a female member of his constituency staff ([i]at most[/i] this request is made once or twice a month, if that). The story here is that this fairly innocuous and insignificant request by Straw was the main news story for the last two days and was splashed across all the frontpages. That's the story - any politician wanting to hit the headlines has to simply say something about Muslim women.

And the Lancashire Council of Mosques' statement that Straw's remarks were insensitive also count for nothing. The LCM is made up of Labour party activists who actively campaign for Jack Straw every election time. They no doubt had prior info that Straw would write what he wrote and had something prepared beforehand. Straw's support among LCM will not suffer one iota because of this.

It's also a wonder why Jack Straw suddenly had all this spare time on his hands to give interviews on the subject and wasn't one bit surprised about the attention his remarks received...

You — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 16:30

Yay for Two Jags!

[quote][size=18]Prescott backs right to wear veil[/size]

Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott has defended the right of Muslim women to wear veils which cover their faces.

It comes after House of Commons leader Jack Straw sparked a row by saying he asked Muslim women to take off their veils at his constituency surgery.

Mr Prescott told the BBC he would not ask a woman to remove her veil, adding: "If a woman wants to wear a veil, why shouldn't she? It's her choice."

But he said he welcomed the "proper debate" caused by Mr Straw's remarks.

Mr Straw said on Friday he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult.

Mr Prescott, who was interviewed on BBC One's Sunday AM programme, said there should never be "no go" areas for debate.

He added that his colleague was better placed than anyone else in the Cabinet to discuss the issue due the large number of Muslims in his Blackburn constituency.

The deputy prime minister said he understood the issue of "separateness" raised by the former foreign secretary.

But he said: "I do fear when you say you emphasise separation there is a fear in the general public that somehow that shouldn't happen."

Mr Prescott said veils were a "cultural difference", adding: "If somebody comes into my constituency wearing... a turban or very dark glasses I'm not going to ask them to remove it.

"I think you can communicate with them."

'Fear and resentment'

Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt echoed these sentiments, saying that she also would not ask a Muslim women to remove her veil.

The minister admitted that she had, in the past, regarded the veil as a symbol of women's oppression, but said she changed her mind some years ago after meeting a Muslim woman in her Leicester West constituency.

"She'd made the decision - not her parents or anybody else - that she wanted as part of her statement of her faith, to wear the full veil.

"I would not ask her to take that off or to change a decision that she has made as an adult woman."

Meanwhile, Communities and Local Government Minister Phil Woolas has backed Mr Straw, warning that the wearing of full veils could provoke "fear and resentment" and play into the hands of far-right activists.

He said there was a need to "debate this issue" to break a "vicious circle" of misunderstanding between communities.

The minister said there was a need to "explain to people who are fearful of traditional Muslim dress the motives and the contexts of that and explain to the British Muslim people the effects that their actions can have if they are misunderstood".

He said that riots in Oldham, Bradford and Burnley five years ago had taught him that there was a need to discuss faith and race issues.

Some Muslim women called Mr Straw's original remarks insulting, but other Muslims have said they understood his concerns.

Speaking on BBC One's Heaven and Earth show, Tahir Alam, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said Jack Straw "ought to be more responsible in making such comments".

He added that it "feeds into the hands of those who have been intolerant of Muslims".

Mr Alam also said that he had received a number of reports of women having their veils pulled off in the last few days.

Meanwhile, Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, the leader of the self-styled Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, said Mr Straw had been right to open the debate on wearing niqabs - the veil for the face that leaves the area around the eyes clear.

Dr Siddiqui said: "This is not a religious issue but a cultural one.

"Mr Straw has opened a debate within the Muslim community. Muslims themselves have failed to create a mechanism to discuss these issues. That is why they have had to be discussed out in the open."

Dr Siddiqui said that less than 5% of Muslim women in the UK wore the niqab.

Mr Straw has dismissed suggestions his remarks were designed to raise his profile ahead of Labour's deputy leadership election.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4801801.stm]BBC News[/url][/quote]

Not that I like the guy, but he speaketh sense. I think having just read half a paragraph off the top...

zara — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 16:34

[quote="Beast"][b]John Prescott is the most chauvanistic sexist cabinet minister there is. His words on this issue count for nothing. This is just the gov trying placate Muslims who've been upset by the recent hoo-ha. Prescott has been wheeled out to say [i]something[/i] conciliatory so that we don't think the gov is all bad. See how Prezza says that there is a need for debate. What debate? [/b]

The story here is not that Jack Sraw asks a very small minority of his constituents when they come to his surgery if they wouldn't mind showing their faces in the presence of a female member of his constituency staff ([i]at most[/i] this request is made once or twice a month, if that). The story here is that this fairly innocuous and insignificant request by Straw was the main news story for the last two days and was splashed across all the frontpages. That's the story - any politician wanting to hit the headlines has to simply say something about Muslim women.

And the Lancashire Council of Mosques' statement that Straw's remarks were insensitive also count for nothing. The LCM is made up of Labour party activists who actively campaign for Jack Straw every election time. They now doubt had prior info that Straw would write what he wrote and has something prepared beforehand. Straw's support among LCM will not suffer one iota because of this.

It's also a wonder why Jack Straw suddenly had all this spare time on his hands to give interviews on the subject and wasn't one bit surprised about the attention his remarks received...[/quote]

but he's saying that women should wear the niqaab becos its their choice...

Beast — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 16:41

[quote="zara"]but he's saying that women should wear the niqaab becos its their choice...[/quote]

Prescott is saying that a woman has the right to wear a niqaab if she wants to. Straw holds the same view but he would prefer it if women didn't wear the niqaab.

Nevertheless, Prescott is saying what he is saying because he's being told to say it by gov spin doctors and Straw is saying what he is saying because he is looking for attention.

zara — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 16:43

[quote]Nevertheless, Prescott is saying what he is saying because he's being told to say it by gov spin doctors and Straw is saying what he is saying because he is looking for attention.[/quote]

how cum you know this?

Sajid Iqbal — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 18:04

[quote="Beast"][quote="zara"]but he's saying that women should wear the niqaab becos its their choice...[/quote]

Prescott is saying that a woman has the right to wear a niqaab if she wants to. Straw holds the same view but he would prefer it if women didn't wear the niqaab. [/quote]

well alot of Muslims have that view aswell

last night on The Lets Talk Show Shaykh Salim Ghisa had that view, and he said he has spoken personally to Shaykh Nuh Keller who strongly holds this view that Muslim women should not wear the niqab in the West. He also quoted Shaykh Hamza Yusuf aswell.

I suppose the only difference is that who is Jack Stra wto say this, it should be a discussion within the Muslim community and teh choice of the woman.

zara — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 19:09

[quote]I suppose the only difference is that who is Jack Stra wto say this, it should be a discussion within the Muslim community and teh choice of the woman.[/quote]

that's what i think too.
and the shaykes that say women should not wear the niqaab in the west, i think it's a bit stupid saying that right now, especially when jack straw has said that too. it doesn't exactly help the women who wear the niqaab, does it?

The Great 100 — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 21:48

Women have every right to wear veils and it doesn't make them a menace, but it represents diminution held as a virtue, which bothers me, and impedes rapport. I think Straw was making a similar point. If it is that important then, engage in the conversation without moaning or attacking Straw's integrity. Educate us.

NB I don't like Straw.

TEX — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 21:59

I cant beleive ppl are making a song and dance about it

the problem with muslims is that when u give them a little bit of constructive criticisms they blow it out of proportion

its hardly the end of the world :roll:

he said NOTHING wrong

if anything the guy was CONCERNED about the problems it wud create

Angel — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 22:14

[quote="TEX"]I cant beleive ppl are making a song and dance about it

the problem with muslims is that when u give them a little bit of constructive criticisms they blow it out of proportion

its hardly the end of the world :roll:

he said NOTHING wrong

if anything the guy was CONCERNED about the problems it wud create[/quote]

You're hardly in the position to talk, you don't do the niqab do you? For some women the niqab is a huge part of their modesty, Jack Straw has to think before he talks. The worse thing is straight after his comments a poor muslim girl was attacked....I don't believe niqab is required here but that's beside the point because some think it is needed as its a part of their hijab.

What worries me however is will they move onto something else and try moaning about that, ie the hijab?

TEX — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 22:20

[quote="Angel"]

You're hardly in the position to talk, you don't do the niqab do you?[/quote]

in that case no bloke in the forum is in a position to talk coz they dont wear one

straw said he fully supported the right for women to wear a headscarf

[quote]For some women the niqab is a huge part of their modesty[/quote]

modesty is purely cultural

what is modest here will not be modest in sumwhere like saudi

[quote]Jack Straw has to think before he talks[/quote]

im sure he did think about it

[quote]The worse thing is straight after his comments a poor muslim girl was attacked....[/quote]

he NEVER told anyone to attack the lass

we cant blame him for that

The Great 100 — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 22:20

[quote="Angel"][quote="TEX"]I cant beleive ppl are making a song and dance about it

the problem with muslims is that when u give them a little bit of constructive criticisms they blow it out of proportion

its hardly the end of the world :roll:

he said NOTHING wrong

if anything the guy was CONCERNED about the problems it wud create[/quote]

You're hardly in the position to talk, you don't do the niqab do you? For some women the niqab is a huge part of their modesty, Jack Straw has to think before he talks. The worse thing is straight after his comments a poor muslim girl was attacked....I don't believe niqab is required here but that's beside the point because some think it is needed as its a part of their hijab.

What worries me however is will they move onto something else and try moaning about that, ie the hijab?[/quote]

Depends on your response to his perfectly acceptable comments.

I agree, there is a danger that racists will turn up the heat. That in itself is something to confront when it happens.

peacegirl — Sun, 8 Oct 2006 - 23:24

guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wooooooooaah................calm down!! Dis stuff is goin' a tad ova da top!!!! I'm on tex's side. why can't people see wot he is tryin' to say?? First of all jack straw REQUESTED and NOt DEMANDED!!!! when I see a 'woman' in niqaab, 'she' even frightens me! and ED...................... banning the salwar kameez, beard, HEAD SCARF??? ERM....lets deal with this IF and when it gets to that!!!!! COVERING THE FACE IS CROSSING THE LINE. THE REST IN MY OPINION ALL GOES!!
[b]the great 100!!!!!!!!! [/b]If the niqaab is a HUGE part of your life.....fine!!! just take it to a muslim country! PLEASE.

Noor — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:03

[quote="saima786"]guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wooooooooaah................calm down!! Dis stuff is goin' a tad ova da top!!!! I'm on tex's side. why can't people see wot he is tryin' to say?? First of all jack straw REQUESTED and NOt DEMANDED!!!! when I see a 'woman' in niqaab, 'she' even frightens me! and ED...................... banning the salwar kameez, beard, HEAD SCARF??? ERM....lets deal with this IF and when it gets to that!!!!! COVERING THE FACE IS CROSSING THE LINE. THE REST IN MY OPINION ALL GOES!!
[b]the great 100!!!!!!!!! [/b]If the niqaab is a HUGE part of your life.....fine!!! just take it to a muslim country! PLEASE.[/quote]

[color=indigo]You say a sister in a Niqaab "frightens" you.. so what are you going to do when you go to Saudi or any other country where niqaab is predominantly worn.

If sisters in the west want to follow the footsteps of the mother of believers then whats the problem?? remmber the wives of the prophet pbuh observed the niqaab.

Ed does have a point. If the niqaab does get banned whos to say the hijaab/jilbab or any other relgious/cultural wont get banned? They cant ban the niqaab. If a sister chooses to observe it then Alhamdulliah. If gypsys, goths, sikhs, jews are allowed to dress and wear what they want, why cant a muslim sister??[/color]

peacegirl — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:08

a muslim woman in the uk!!!! coz muslims have got a terrible image!!! WHEN THEY START BANNING RELIGIOUS/ CULTURAL CLOTHES............TALK WHEN IT GETS TO THAT!!!!!! NOT NOW!!! TRY AND MAKE PEACE NOT WAR! NO ONE IS BANNING THE NIQQAB!!!!! WEREN'T YOU LISTENING TO JACK STRAW?? OBVIOSLY NOT

Noor — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:11

[color=indigo]Well why do you try and help break that streotype then?!

:roll:

War? What War??

or do you mean the crisis in the Middle-East...?[/color]

peacegirl — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:12

IN THIS COUNTRY......covering the face is considered rude. noone has said anything about other clothes. if people don't agree......there is a simple solution...........GO TO A MUSLIM COUNTRY!

peacegirl — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:16

WAR...............IT'S GONNA GO THAT WAY........IF PEOPLE CARRY ON LIKE THIS! i'M A PROUD MUSLIM.........BUT I WANNA GET ALONG WITH EVERYONE. i WEAR A headscarf. best of both worlds.

Noor — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:22

[quote="saima786"]IN THIS COUNTRY[b]......covering the face is considered rude.[/b] noone has said anything about other clothes. if people don't agree......there is a simple solution...........GO TO A MUSLIM COUNTRY![/quote]

[color=indigo]Rude?

Many Muslims will see wearing clothes next to nothing as rude, so whos to draw the line??

..Whatever happend to england being a country which "liberates" and gives "freedom" to every individual?

:roll: [/color]

peacegirl — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:26

not showing your face.........rude
wearing minimum clothing...rude

wearing a headscarf..........not rude
covering you body.............not rude

thats the line........... i'm on the muslims side on EVERY issue. just not on the NIQAAB. NOT IN THE UK.

The Great 100 — Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 00:51

saima786,

Respect. (I think you misunderstood my remarks - best clarified if you take a look at the Juma Mubarak thread and also if you read my comments earlier in this thread closely. Most people here are familiar but perhaps we haven't spoken before. Or sorry if it is I who has misunderstood. Shalom.)