Superwomen-Necessity or Choice?

MuslimSister —

Salaam

I was reading an article the other day which basically was arguing that women are expected to become “superwomen”-they must do it all or lose it all.

They become “supermums” and are “burned out” a few years later. And it was basically arguing that career-orientated women lead stressful lives and that too many of us have fallen prey to the feminist mystique....and that women should only focus on family and home and nothing else.

Islamically, it is the father/husbands job to financially provide for his family. I do not dispute that; however is it wrong for women to educate themselves just in case one day God forbid she won’t have a man in her life to financially take care of her?

My mum has stressed education for her girls, not so that we’d become “feminist and career orientated women who believe that we don’t need a man” but so that, if God Forbid something happens…we’d be able to take care of ourselves.

My grandfather passed away when mum was young, leaving my nan to marry off and bring up six young kids and cos my nan was not educated - mum’s family lived in relative poverty for years.

Mum put of marriage till she was qualified and earning money. Her qualifications also came in handy, because for the first three years of marriage dad was a student and not earning much…

Whilst men are obliged to financially take care of their women….I feel that many women lose out when they depend on their men 101% and are not equipped to take care of themselves…

Is it wrong to stress education for women as a back up?

Life doesn’t come with guarantee’s…people get divorced, widowed, or suffer from bankruptcy. And I also know of situations where the husband earns a lot of money but because of his stingy nature, out of desperation the wife is forced to ask others for money…

It depresses me when parents focus so much on their son’s education but for their girls they feel that GCSE’s is more than enough….

A few friends of mine are struggling to call their husbands over from Pakistan cos they have young children and are not educated and struggling to find work….

I don’t believe that women can survive without men.

After all it was dad who’s financially took care of all my needs since I was little-paid for my Uni fee’s, took me Hajj, brought me a car, has always dropped me off all my life wherever I wanted to go. It’s him I call up when I’m lost, or when the mobile company is ripping me off, or when the bank is messing me about or when work cuts my pay…I’d be lost without him.

But at the same time…I feel that women should be fully equipped to deal with whatever life throws at them and parents should stress education for their daughters for this reason.

I’m desperate to become a qualified teacher….I pray that I get accepted on to my teachers’ training course, but at the same I have no intention of being in full time employment….I just want to work when I feel like it, and have the reassurance that I can take care of myself.

How far do you guys agree with the above…?

Wasalaam

Forum

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:10

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][quote="yuit"]
Career women i talking about, are not the one who do community base work, rather the business minded one who are also feminist as well, u know the one, who think whatever a man can do a woman can do better. :roll:[/quote]

so buisness minded girls are feminists? :roll:

I'm doing buisness n Uni? :shock:[/quote]lilsis, ur taking it literally - 'business minded' doesnt mean 'businesswoman', its just another way of saying 'career minded' i.e. someone who puts their career above anything else.

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:12

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]stop being mean to me 😢

God knows why ur dissing "career minded" women[/quote]

I being mean, yeah that make sense :roll:

Just don't get Career women, who think they doing something great for mankind by trying to act like men. Not talking about Nurse, teachers, doctors or anything in Social work.

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:13

thats all the lazy boy had to say :roll:

i would have thought doing "buisness" at uni made me "buisness minded"

to me "career minded" simply means-being into ones career-thats all

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:14

[quote="yuit"]

Just don't get Career women, who think they doing something great for mankind by trying to act like men. Not talking about Nurse, teachers, doctors or anything in Social work.[/quote]

so a women who is a receptionist, works n a beauty parlour or bank or retail is trying to act like a man and aint doing anything good for mankind?

whatever u say :roll:

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:18

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]thats all the lazy boy had to say :roll:

i would have thought doing "buisness" at uni made me "buisness minded"

to me "career minded" simply means-being into ones career-thats all[/quote]

I study business for 8 years, but it means nothing to me and wouldn't consider myself business minded. I did try to emphasise i didn't mean all career woman.

Also don't know any bloke who want to be a receptionist, works in a beauty parlour so u girl can do those jobs if u want. 😂

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:20

i know men who are receptionist and work in parlours

I dont think they're trying to "act like women" :roll: :roll:

i wonder why men feel threatened with the prescence of women in the work world

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:26

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]i know men who are receptionist and work in parlours

I dont think they're trying to "act like women" :roll: :roll:

i wonder why men feel threatened with the prescence of women in the work world[/quote]

Do u really :roll: I sure u do 😉

No one feel threaten, just stating that I prefer that [u][i][b]some[/b][/i][/u] woman didn't act a certain way

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:26

[quote="*DUST*"]'career minded' i.e. someone who puts their career above anything else.[/quote]
[quote="yuit"]Career women, who think they doing something great for mankind by trying to act like men. Not talking about Nurse, teachers, doctors or anything in Social work.[/quote]
it seems i disagree with u... :?

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:27

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]i know men who are receptionist and [b]work in parlours[/b][/quote] :shock: :?[/quote]

yeh

men "parlours"

whats so strange about that?

and yuit-keep ur sad insecurities to urself
:roll:

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:28

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][quote="*DUST*"][quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]i know men who are receptionist and [b]work in parlours[/b][/quote] :shock: :?[/quote]

yeh

men "parlours"

whats so strange about that?[/quote]and what exactly do they do in these 'men parlours' - same stuff as women? :?

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:30

[quote="*DUST*"]
and what exactly do they do in these 'men parlours' - same stuff as women? :?[/quote]

LOL

i dont visit them now do I?

according to bro-they tart men up

u know-give them those stupid jazzy lines on their face

cut their hair n beards

some offer facials :shock:

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:32

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][quote="*DUST*"]
and what exactly do they do in these 'men parlours' - same stuff as women? :?[/quote]

LOL

i dont visit them now do I?

according to bro-they tart men up

u know-give them those stupid jazzy lines on their face

cut their hair n beards

some offer facials :shock:[/quote]

You know you just describe a barber :roll:

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:33

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]u know-give them those stupid jazzy lines on their face

cut their hair n beards[/quote]that sounds more like any old barber as opposed to a special 'parlour'... 😉
i dunno, the latter just doesnt sound right... y on earth would men need manicures? :?

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:35

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][quote="yuit"]

You know you just describe a barber :roll:[/quote]

Gay barbers.

most men dont care about facials n face massages :roll:[/quote]

Not sure about Facials, but face massages are quite common, especailly in pakland, but they becoming more common here as well.

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:35

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][quote="yuit"]

You know you just describe a barber :roll:[/quote]

Gay barbers.

most men dont care about facials n face massages :roll:[/quote]
LOL. 😂 lilsis, u do realise u just argued against ur own argument...? 😂 aww man... 😂

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:39

whether men need them or not is not my point

point is-barber DO offer such stuff

some even offer threading

now thats BLATENT men trying to copy women

same can not be said about women who run buisness's

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:45

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]i know men who are receptionist and work in parlours

[b]I dont think they're trying to "act like women"[/b] :roll: :roll:[/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]yeh

men "parlours"

[b]whats so strange about that?[/b][/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]Gay barbers.

most men dont care about facials n face massages :roll:[/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]point is-barber DO offer such stuff

some even offer threading

[b]now thats BLATENT men trying to copy women[/b][/quote]

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0188.gif[/img]

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:45

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]whether men need them or not is not my point

point is-barber DO offer such stuff

some even offer threading

now thats BLATENT men trying to copy women

same can not be said about women who run buisness's[/quote]

Well if they do, that obviously wrong and so gay IMO. It is sad that women and men characteristic and lifestyle have become so link, it scary.

yuit — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:47

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]i know men who are receptionist and work in parlours

[b]I dont think they're trying to "act like women"[/b] :roll: :roll:[/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]yeh

men "parlours"

[b]whats so strange about that?[/b][/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]point is-barber DO offer such stuff

some even offer threading

[b]now thats BLATENT men trying to copy women[/b][/quote]

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0188.gif[/img][/quote]

LOL

Yeah she been cracking me up as well today. 😂 😂

MuslimSisLilSis — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:48

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]i know men who are receptionist and work in parlours

[b]I dont think they're trying to "act like women"[/b] :roll: :roll:[/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]yeh

men "parlours"

[b]whats so strange about that?[/b][/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]Gay barbers.

most men dont care about facials n face massages :roll:[/quote]
[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"]point is-barber DO offer such stuff

some even offer threading

[b]now thats BLATENT men trying to copy women[/b][/quote]

[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0188.gif[/img][/quote]

1-nothing wrong with working n parlours

2-this does NOT make them trying to "act like women"

3-threading etc and spending hours tarting urself up does=trying to act like women

*DUST* — Mon, 20 Feb 2006 - 22:59

[quote="MuslimSisLilSis"][b]1-nothing wrong with working n parlours[/b]

2-this does NOT make them trying to "act like women"

3-threading etc and spending hours tarting urself up does=trying to act like women[/quote]
wot parlours? didnt u just say that they're actually 'Gay barbers'...? 😛

yashmaki — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 - 08:56

Assalamu Alaikum,

I don't understand some of the brothers objections to women gaining secular knowledge, in addition to Islamic knowledge? Aisha (ra) had knowledge of the sciences and medicine too in case you have forgotten, as well as an immense knowledge on religious issues.

Khadijah (ra) was known for her business acumen and trading skills, apart from her complete devotion to our prophet ﷺ and the deen.

Some of the greatest Scientists, and Mathematicians, Doctors of the early Islamic periods were known to be scholars of the Islamic faith. Doesn't this demonstrate that you can have both, and should aim to get a good balance of both?

If you brothers are suggesting that sisters should just concentrate on Islamic knowledge coz it's the best form of knowledge, which no one will argue with. I ask you why don't you act on your own words? Why is it perfectly ok for men to study to high levels at university but frowned upon for women. If the deen is as important to you as you make out why are you "wasting" your time with so called lowly secular study, you should be studying your deen full time, not part time.

Our prophet ﷺ disliked and warned against those who are excessive in religion, and I expect that would cover those who are excessive in other fields aswell. In my mind to ask a woman to "only" attain religious knowledge and neglect everything else is a form of ignornace and extremism.

I don't know about you but I would want the father (mother) of my children to have at least a basic level of knowledge in an array of subjects to educate my children. I want my husband to home educate. I want my husband to help their child with Maths, English, Science, History. How useless and redundant would a parent feel if they couldn't offer that?

My parents couldn't offer any of that to me, coz they were not educated. I know they would have liked to help me. Perhaps you would be happy with this sort of parenting but nowadays there's no good reason to be illiterate especially when you're living in the west and have access to a free education.

I think you guys know very well our prophet ﷺ encouraged us to attain both types of knowledge, with secular education being given second place not total absence as you are implying.

(Women who neglect their kids coz they want a full time career that's a different issue, I can't say I agree with that.)

yuit — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 - 10:04

When I am critical of secular education, i not only applying it to women only. Given the chnace again, i would have left school at 16 without a second thought, basically what I gain from higher education is a piece of paper, I remember Hamza Yusuf saying as much in one of his speeches. [b]Of course with some career higher education is very important and is needed[/b], in my case it wasn't.

The most cleverest and brightest people i have had the courstesy of meeting, all did it without secular education, if fact their advice was to me, to go and simply pick up a book every week and study it and with google it even easier.:roll:

Plus the example of Hadhrat Khadijah (ra), can not be used in reference to many of the career woman today, because they put their career ahead of everything. But there is a good example in her for many muslims to follow if done properly. It like the example of many men, who always point out that alot of the Sahabi used to be trademen, so they go out and work 12-15 hour shift in their shop thinking they done their bit as they are providing, while their kids run wild and cause mayhem on the streets.

MuslimSister — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 - 10:12

Salaam

Education really does broaden your mind…and whilst we may feel that we never learnt anything in school.

We def picked up a LOT from the informal curriculum, i.e. learnt how to be punctual, socialise, be professional, be critical/open minded in our thinking etc etc

Undoubtedly, women who value their career above everything are in the wrong….but some women HAVE to become career women…simply and only to make ends meet.

But this thread is mainly about the importance of stressing education for men AND women, and how in our culture, sometimes the emphasis is only on men’s education….and why its important for a mother to be educated in secular as well as religious education.

Wasalaam

Ramz — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 - 12:03

I had to fight to continue my education after GCSE and also had to fight to stay away from home and live on campus.

Education for women is very important. But in our desi culture only education for boys is stressed even though in many homes it usually the girls who end up doing something productive with their lives. I have no intention of following in my mothers footsteps who has depended on her husband her entire life, whilst he struggled to support us and his family in desh :roll: I had to learn to be independent from a young age. I've always been in employment which meant that I was always in a position to take care of myself.

yashmaki — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 - 15:15

brother Yuit i somehow doubt Sheikh Hamzah Yusuf would be against higher education. He himself is educated to a very high level. He went into the medicine field, but a severe accident led to him questioning his life, and finally entering Islam.

Anyone who has heard him speak is very aware he has Islamic knowledge but is very aware of non religious subjects, particularly history and psychological studies. A person who studies just religion alone wouldn't be able to give a realistic world view. Wouldn't be able to relate to the youth. We already have problems with an excess of scholars who are unable to connect with their audiences due to this.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf encourages home study/private tuition if Islamic institutions are unavailable. He doesn't advocate disregarding education at all.

I don't doubt there are many successful ppl out there who have the drive, intuition and skills to make a career with GCSE's alone. But that route is not the best for everyone, particularly those who want to go into specialised professions.

I would want my child to be educated up to A-level status at the very least. Whether they go to university is up to them. That's dependent on whether their career requires a degree.

But I would ensure they alsoreceived a full time Islamic education from a very young age, and encourage them to continue to a higher level. Whether they do or not isn't up to me though, coz you can't force an 18yr old to be a scholar if that's not what they want. So long as they are young and under my roof I'll do my best to give them the best Islamic education along with secular subjects.

I had no problems studying, my parents never stopped me from doing A-levels or going university. They didn't want me to stay in another town, but they didn't want that for my brothers either. Luckily for them I started commuting coz I got homesick.

I have one brother who has just a GCSE education, and he is now seriously struggling to support his wife and child. Yes he has the skills to do well in any job, but the job market is very competitive these days. Employers always ask of degrees and A-levels even if the job doesn't require it. So my brother is left with jobs which offer poor pay. Prior to getting married it was a sufficient income now it's just not enough.

Now he's going back to college to get a better paid job. For years he's been struggling. Supporting a wife and children is the duty of a husband. So you see he needs to be educated to fulfill his duty as a muslim father.

Everyone wants the best for their children, no one wants to see them struggle, so give them the best in life, encourage them in all that is good and permitted. Secular knowledge need not be viewed as an evil or insignificant. Any knowledge we have is given to us from God, we should grasp it while we can.

yuit — Tue, 21 Feb 2006 - 17:37

Honest sis he did, i wouldn't lie about it, i think it was a talk about following the footstep of the Prophet (saw), not sure though. He didn't say that you should disregard higher education, anything but, i heard enough of his talk that stated that muslims should be qualified jobs and how they should be setting the example for society and community. But in this talk he talked about how little there is to really gain from university education and how infact it limit the thinking of people to fulfill a certain criteria. He certainly didn't mean completely drop it, just to be vary of it. I also read a report a little while ago where employer were complaining how unprepared people with degree are when in coem to teh working world.

I personally agree taht as muslim we should learn amuch thing as possible so we are better prepare for the world, but it doesn't necessary mean university education. I wasted so many year in uni thinking it the long run it would help establish me in the future, but looking at the people who left school at 16, most are doing much better then me as they establsih already. Maybe i just think like this because when i left school house price was like 5 time less as they are now, so that means a extra 10 years of struggle which wouldn't have been the case if i left school. All uni done for me, was allow me to doss for a couple of years. I know i shouldn't be so negative about it, but can't help it. My opinion on University education isn't target at women, just everyone in general.