Intelligent Design v Evolution

Beast —

[quote][b]Intelligent Design (ID)[/b] is the controversial assertion which argues that "certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection." Proponents claim that Intelligent Design stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.

The scientific community views Intelligent Design not as a valid scientific theory but as neocreationist pseudoscience or junk science. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that Intelligent Design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because their claims cannot be tested by experiment and propose no new hypotheses of their own.
[/quote]

So, Dave. Is Intelligent Design just something that is pushed by Christian Evangelical Complex or do you find any positives in the idea?

From what I've read, heard and seen about the affair I am particularly interested by Kenneth Miller. He is an evolutionist who is also a believer in God. I'm thinking of [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060930497/ref=wl_it_dp/026-74… this[/url].

Forum

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 15:52

[size=18]Islam and Evolution[/size]
[size=16]Nuh Ha Mim Keller[/size]

Allah alone is Master of Existence. He alone causes all that is to be and not to be. Causes are without effect in themselves, but rather both cause and effect are created by Him. The causes and the effects of all processes, including those through which plant and animal species are individuated, are His work alone. To ascribe efficacy to anything but His action, whether believing that causes (a) bring about effects in and of themselves; or (b) bring about effects in and of themselves through a capacity Allah has placed in them, is to ascribe associates to Allah (shirk). Such beliefs seem to be entailed in the literal understanding of "natural selection" and "random mutation," and other evolutionary concepts, unless we understand these processes as figurative causes, while realizing that Allah alone is the agent. This is apart from the consideration of whether they are true or not.

As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr) no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an. Man is of special origin, attested to not only by revelation, but also by the divine secret within him, the capacity for ma'rifa or knowledge of the Divine that he alone of all things possesses. By his God-given nature, man stands before a door opening onto infinitude that no other creature in the universe can aspire to. Man is something else.

http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm

You — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 15:57

Beast add that article onto the newsblog with source please. (category: Sciance. make sure you untick 'the revival' as a category).

I am still adding current articles so will not add new ones yet.

(I will read this article later.)

Medarris — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:02

[quote="Beast"]
[b]As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr)[/b] no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an. Man is of special origin, attested to not only by revelation, but also by the divine secret within him, the capacity for ma'rifa or knowledge of the Divine that he alone of all things possesses. By his God-given nature, man stands before a door opening onto infinitude that no other creature in the universe can aspire to. Man is something else.

http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm[/quote]

so according to some people here saying Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah is haraam but not shirk/kufr but to believe in evolution of humans is kufr regardless whether u say ALLAH was driving force behind this evolution?

interesting.

You — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:05

The diference being the qur'an does not say that sajda is shirk regardless, but it does say that god created Adam(as).

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:10

[quote="Med"]so according to some people here saying Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah is haraam but not shirk/kufr but to believe in evolution of humans is kufr regardless whether u say ALLAH was driving force behind this evolution?
[/quote]

Just to allow you to clarify your question...

Which people here say that it is haraam to say Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah and that it is kufr to believe in evolution of humans?

Medarris — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:14

[quote="Beast"][quote="Med"]so according to some people here saying Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah is haraam but not shirk/kufr but to believe in evolution of humans is kufr regardless whether u say ALLAH was driving force behind this evolution?
[/quote]

Just to allow you to clarify your question...

Which people here say that it is haraam to say Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah and that it is kufr to believe in evolution of humans?[/quote]

I believe if my memory serves me correctly admin says it is haraam to utter that forumala in sajdah but he doesnt say it is shirk/kufr.

Nuh Ha Mim Keller says it is is kufr to believe in humans evolution?

Im assuming that admin et al follow Nuh Ha Mim Keller aswell, so I am interested by this.

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:18

[quote="Med"][quote="Beast"][quote="Med"]so according to some people here saying Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah is haraam but not shirk/kufr but to believe in evolution of humans is kufr regardless whether u say ALLAH was driving force behind this evolution?
[/quote]

Just to allow you to clarify your question...

Which people here say that it is haraam to say Subhaana Rabbiyal A'la wa Muhammad in sajdah and that it is kufr to believe in evolution of humans?[/quote]

I believe if my memory serves me correctly admin says it is haraam to utter that forumala in sajdah but he doesnt say it is shirk/kufr.

Nuh Ha Mim Keller says it is is kufr to believe in humans evolution?

Im assuming that admin et al follow Nuh Ha Mim Keller aswell, so I am interested by this.[/quote]

You said 'some people'. Plural. Name those people - Admin being only [u]one[/u] of them.

'Admin et al'. Admin and who else?

You — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:34

How is saying all praise to the lord, the greatest, and also the prophet' in sajdah shirk?

It is haraam, but not shirk as there is a distinction being made between the creator and the created.

MuslimSisLilSis — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:41

[quote="Beast"]

You said 'some people'. Plural. Name those people - Admin being only [u]one[/u] of them.

'Admin et al'. Admin and who else?[/quote]

his imaginary friends of biddah

the ones who worship graves n go to Milad raves n smoke dope there :roll:

Med-say hello to u mates for me

star — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 17:16

[quote="Beast"]You said 'some people'. Plural. Name those people - Admin being only [u]one[/u] of them.

'Admin et al'. Admin and who else?[/quote]

muslimsister

[quote="Admin"]How is saying all praise to the lord, the greatest, and also the prophet' in sajdah shirk?

It is haraam, but not shirk as there is a distinction being made between the creator and the created.[/quote]

been discussed before....

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 17:24

[quote="naj"][quote="Beast"]You said 'some people'. Plural. Name those people - Admin being only [u]one[/u] of them.

'Admin et al'. Admin and who else?[/quote]

muslimsister
[/quote]

It's a shame Med couldn't remember himself...

:roll:

Medarris — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 18:03

[quote="Beast"][quote="naj"][quote="Beast"]You said 'some people'. Plural. Name those people - Admin being only [u]one[/u] of them.

'Admin et al'. Admin and who else?[/quote]

muslimsister
[/quote]

It's a shame Med couldn't remember himself...

:roll:[/quote]

yes muslimsister also. And by this token if admin and muslimsister hold this view then i am assuming that a great number of people here will also be of the same view.

You — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 02:10

Just bringing this topic back.

Just read the scientists do not 'know' the reason why humans have an appendix.

Apparently it is on no use. However other primates such as monkeys do not have them, while animals such as mice do.

So, to sum up, people have an appendix (I think there is one... but maybe two?), but there is no need, and if evolution is to be followed, we should not have them?

You — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 02:16

[quote="Augustus"]We cook our meat[/quote]

so?

does that mean we need appendix, or that we do not?

If not, why do primates not have them?

Not sure I understand your argument...

Dave — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 02:19

Well Annette told me that it has something to do with eating meat... I guess there was a larger organ designed for breaking down plant enzymes, which is present in herbavors, but we're primarily meat eaters and in meat eaters the organ shrinks, disappears, or turns into a much smaller portion of itself - an "appendix"

Dave — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 02:25

...so doesn't that sorta argue evolution?

Physiological adaptation to ones climate.

If the diet of the species changes to primarily meat... the physiology should adapt with it.

You — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 02:27

Just did a quick google, and it comes up as vegetarian mentioning species...

did a quick quiz, and it also used herbivore...

from animalswhhich are kosher or halaal do tey not have to be herbivore AND four legged?

You — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 02:29

[quote="Augustus"]...so doesn't that sorta argue evolution?

Physiological adaptation to ones climate.

If the diet of the species changes to primarily meat... the physiology should adapt with it.[/quote]

It argues the opposite...

The herbivores that *should* need the appendix do not have it.

The omnivores that *should not* need it do have it...

100man — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 12:31

How on earth can Islam rule on scientific theory? :roll:

[quote="Admin"]from animals which are kosher or halaal do they not have to be herbivore AND four legged?[/quote]

Kosher animals have split hooves and chew the cud, so they are indeed herbivorous. [url=http://www.unity.edu/FacultyPages/Nelson/Lecture16.htm]Lecture16.htm[/u…]

OT I just read [url=http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=2022]the end[/url] is nigh.

Omrow — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 12:45

Salam

Islamic religion has a lot to say on modern science.

Thats because Prophet Muhammad was a scientist.

Omrow

100man — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 12:47

There have been many scientists and many functioning authentic innovations. Does not Islam respect free inquiry?

[quote]What electrifying and exciting times we live in![/quote]

Omrow — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 13:21

Salam

Islamic religion does respect free and open inquiry.

Prophet Muhammad encouraged questioning and research.

He even told his follower to travel as far as China in the pursuit of knowledge.

In those day China was furthermost land that was known.

America was yet to be invaded.

Omrow

100man — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 13:50

[quote="Omrow"]America was yet to be invaded.[/quote]

I don't know about that. Science suggests early migrations, perhaps the Inuit, across the Bearing Strait, and seafaring Polynesians came to the South perhaps as early as 1,500BCE. Linguistic and archaeological evidences suggest the Polynesian Americans were widely travelled and met with tribes arond California, bequeathing a particular Polynesian canoe design. On more of a limb, the Aztec word for God, 'Teo' is more or less the Greek 'Theus'. Ancient Phoenecians, Egyptians and Israelites all traded with America. Toxicologists who have examined mummies report the Pharaohs were fond of indigenous American charlie and tobacco. Roman artefacts have been found all over. The Irish Monk St. Brendan apparently took 17 monks there around 500CE.

*DUST* — Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - 14:35

[quote="Omrow"]He even told his follower to travel as far as China in the pursuit of knowledge.[/quote]
how many times do i have to say this... :?

Omrow, that^ is a mawdoo' (fabricated) hadith!