I'm unfamiliar with Waziristan and the present war between it and Pakistan - I know some basic rudimentary stuff but that's about it.
Who are the Waziris? Are they a tribe, ethnicity, a former nation?
Does Waziristan have hard borders? - how autonomous are they?
How much access do they have to the outside world - do they actually know who bin Laden is or what he did?
Why have they been so helpful to al Qaeda?
What are their cities, culture, language and religions?
And what is their relationship with Pakistan long term and short term - what is the extent of this war between Pakistan and Waziristan, how long has it been going on, how extensive are operations?
Salam
Whatever you do, don't ever go there.
They will hack you up and feed you the the dogs. Big dogs. I mean very big dogs.
These guys simply hate everyone who is not from there.
If you leave them alone they will leave you alone.
When I was in Pakistan last year, I didn't venture there. I would have been dog meat. So I decided to stick to touring Islamabad. You would have to carry a gun for a safe visit. My uncle wanted to take me there to see the place, and he claims its a beautiful place to visit. But the people simply don't like the rest of Pakis. Waziris are more ethnically akin to Afghans than they are to Pakis.
That region was originally part of Afghanistan. When the British ruled India, they redrew the borders and made it part of India. When Pakistan became independent in 1947, the area became part of the new nation. They still dont like Pakistan which is why they often clash with the army.
They want to rejoin Afghanistan.
They speak Pashto and sell women. Thats right.
Its probably the only place left on Earth where girls can still be bought and sold. Pakistan government simply does not interfere in this trade.
I posted on an other thread the BBC article about the aea:
It is thought that Bin Laden is hiding there.
http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=45822&highlight=#45822
Omrow
Selling... girls?
Well then... a fitting place for bin Laden to [i]hide[/i] - amongst the other barbarians.
Why does Pakistan allow this to happen? Surely more stringent direct military rule over the area could bring some level of lawfulness to these people.
Its an autonomous region. Pakistan Law does not apply there. They make their own rules.
They call that law?
I bet they have a stock market like the New York Exchange.
With a big flag on it?
Females are seen as personal property. Hence they can be exchanged or sold. They have been doing it for centuries. Its no big deal for them.
Waziristan is not a seperate country. It is part of pakistans autonomous region and is tribal land. The police and courts do not exist there as the tribal law is/was the power there.
In actual fact parts of baluchistan and NWFP were cut and put into pakistan by british.
Whoever said they want to join afghanistan is talking out of his stupidity.
The pukhtoon/pathan of afghanistan and pakistan are more inclined to have one country called pukhtoonkhwa. Basically the pathans of afghanistan and pakistan are one people seperated by a superficial border.
They are not savages, dave I expected better from you.
They "sell" women - maybe technically but all the ethnic peoples of indo-pak have their own customs.
The pathans give a daughter after having receieved money from the bridegroom, the bigger the amount the more honour for the woman in their society. And this money is used to give her wedding gifts. If she marries for nothing then people think something wrong with her.
The katchis and seraikis also have their own custom. age of 12 years the feudal elders decude which boy and girl are to marry and it is decided. If a boy or a girl disagrees - then immediately the feudal states : karo kardo kill him, or if its the girl who refuses kari kardo kill her. Now thats equality.
Punjabis often demand huge dowries from girls family at last moment. They bring the grooms procession and demand money, cars, bikes, jewellery etc as dowry from girls family. If girls family refuses they threaten to walk away on the wedding day. The girl is left shamed in the thick society so families try and meet demands as much as possible. If they give as much as they can and marriage takes place, it is possible in punjabis that they feel angry at not getting more dowry and burn the girl to death.
So talking about savages, have to look at every1.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Can anyone tell me the price for an old bag ?
lol med.
Selling people = Savage, Barbaric and other unpleasant adjectives in that vein.
I don't care what whacky cultural idiosyncrasies these people have - the fact that they are different than us and i'm supposed to be "okay with that because diversity of ideas is good!
" doesn't apply to the sexual exploitation [b]OF PEOPLE[/b].
Trying to look at it from a more understanding angle simply exculpates this obscene and exploitive behavior.
And comparing this practice throughout the entire area really isn't impressing me. Purchasing women so they aren't burned to death? This sounds like something from the Jahilya.
True.
If others do something wrong aswell, that does not make the act less wrong.
The tribal regions are apart of pakistan, but until the last few years, they have been independent from the Pakistani legal system.
This was compounded in the 80's when Pakistan moved back 5 miles to have a buffer region between pakistan and the soviet occupied Afghanistan.
This area was erm.. unbufferised starting from 2002...
Some people there do have very backwards practices. They are being banned as the law of pakistan is being applied.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The wedding customs in pakistan are off topic, I apologise.
Waziristans people are honourable. They are steadfast and firm. Its the politicians who are unreliable. Consistently the people of tribal belt have been hosts to those who came to fight the USSR, the pakis done the double dealing.
So if any1 deserves to be brought to account its the fat cat pakis.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Yea... but they are [u]selling[/u] their [i]children[/i].
Am I missing something here or isn't that one of the top ten bad parenting moves of the century? - right up there with letting them eat candy on a monday night past their bed time.
"It's a girl! - great I wonder how much I can get for her"
How is that any different than just burying her in the sand?
lol so they've fought off the soviets - super - so did bin Laden, hell so did we. But selling your children pretty much strips you of any honor you might have accrued during your commie bashing days.
1. Some people do literally sell their daughters. This is wrong.
2. Other people arrange a marriage, set a dowry demand from the grooms side and use that money to set up their daughter. Thats not selling.
You cant say its selling in all cases. Some cases yes, some cases no. What about if girl and boy are happy to get married, and as per custom girls family set the dowry demand, boys family give it, couple are married, at departure girl is given furntiture, clothes, utensils etc and goes to hubbys house.
Nowt wrong.
Some people made out that every1 goes around advertising their daughters.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
dave talk about honour coming from you wont effect on me.
Your concept of honour is different to mine.
NOT that I say selling women is honourable
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
In western culture, the daughters family 'pay' the suitor to take the daughter.
In Islamic culture, the suitor 'pays' the daughter. That money is the wife-to-be's, and not the family's. (islamic economics: a woman's money is her own. A man's is the family's...)
This is diferent from selling. Some may also sell, and that is wrong.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
This is quite a departure from your earlier post:
Before they would "technically sell" their kids and now it's only some of them.
The fact of the matter is you are still communicating to me that the selling of women is an accepted custom amongst these people - If joe waziri wanted to sell his daughter to a respected tribal elder - there would be no problem with this.
The issue isn't prevalency, which from your and Omrow's posts as well as
[url=http://www.newsline.com.pk/newsApr2004/cover2apr2004.htm]outside sources[/url] it's pretty prevalent - but rather one of cultural acceptability. i couldn't blaim a country for criminal acts committed in it - for example in much of eastern europe women are kidnapped and sold into the sex trade.
It is illegal and unnacceptable by all but the wealthiest and most licentious in Eastern Europe - who obviously have the money to keep the trade going.
But from what Omrow - you - and the article are saying, this is just business as usual in waziristan - can't pay a debt, give em your daughter - who cares if she is nine? On top of that I see that "honor killings" are in vogue too.
Chasing sheep around a mountain killing your daughter for getting raped and selling your children to pay off your debts is not a culture - that's barbarism.
lol it won't affect you since you obviously agree with me.
Selling women is not honorable.
We agree.
There is no argument here.
technically even the normal happy pathan wedding is selling daughter cos money is handed over the brides family before girl is handed over to groom.
So in that case every single pathan woman has been sold. But no she is not sold because selling means the woman is OWNED by her husband. Rather she is married, has a marriage ceremony and is the wife not the slave.
[b]I dont deny ignorant people do ignorant things. I dont need to defend their actions as i do not agree with them.[/b]
My point is cant say ALL such weddings are selling of daughters because thats not true.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Sure - nobody has said all Waziri weddings are the result of this disgusting slave trade.
But what we have said is that it's barbaric.
Which you obviously agree with:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=barbarism
1. [b]An act, trait, or custom characterized by ignorance or crudity.[/b]
Moving right along - am I correct in saying that the Waziris do not have a sense of nationalism? What is it that brings these people together? Are they an ethnicity or is it a language?
Language and ethnicity plays a part. They speak pashto and are ethnically pakhtoon. But really they are tribal and thats what holds them in place. Loyalty to tribe, the elders of the tribe decide how to behave with other tribes who are also pakhtoon.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
So is there a different tribal structure for the Waziri from the Pashto-speaking people?
waziristan si a part of the pashtoon heartland, they are not a seperate ''waziri'' people.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
So where did the name come from?
Or is that the name of the mountainous region they live in?
Kinda like how the swiss deep down inside are actually german.
Strike that.
Kinda like how the swiss deep down inside are soulless bankers.
lol. Its just a name of the place. Eg Baluchistan means land of the baloch but they have not just baloch, but indiginous persians and pakhtoons aswell in "balochistan", Pakistan is land of the pure - no comment.
Waziristan is just the name of a certain part of pakistan. Waziri are not any different from NWFPs or kandaharis according to my knowledge. I am in birmingham, but I aint any different to my cousins who live in london or manchester etc. We just in different places.
So its not an issue of why "waziris" are helping some people or fighting pak army. Its why in tribal belt is shelter given to some people. I get the impression from you that you think the waziris are some distinct people who are supporting the "enemy" whilst the rest of the pakhtoons are sitting on the fence. Its just that the fight had to happen and the pak army decided to fight in waziristan, they could have jsut as much decided to go further north or further south etc.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
By modern humanist standards most historical culture is barbaric. Look at england. It used to be part of the pagan religion here to sacrifice virgins.
You make it sound like this metaphysical force we call human rights has always existed in some kind of esoteric fashion.
Yea actually that's exactly what I was thinking...
I got it now though, basically these people are like bedoin - same ethnicity language etc but with a different more traditional culture and they do not recognize borders.
It sounds like this is a civil war then.
lol maybe in the dark ages...
I had to give Sr. Tejada a full statement of my financial situation to prove I was able to support his daughter (ignoring the fact I pretty much have been for the last 4 years), [i]before[/i] I could even get into the romantic reasons why I was asking for his daughter.
I've never heard of this tribe you're referring to so i can't comment on them. But the custom of selling daughters either through dowries or literally selling them isn't just a custom of this tribe, it would be unfair to attribute it to them alone. In india, Pakistan, Bangladesh and many other countries this occurs. Sometimes it's due to custom sometimes it's due to poverty. Either way it's unacceptable, and totally against our faith.
It's kind of unfair to call this entire tribe barbaric based on this custom. How do we know that they all sell their daughters? In Pakistan that's certainly not always the trend, neither is it in India or Bangladesh times are changing. Women are realising there are places they can go for support, they're realising it's against religion, against their human rights.
So apart from this feature what else makes this tribe barbaric, Omrow seems to know quite a bit about them, any history links?
dave wot a stupid user name! :roll:
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Pages