Pilgrims killed in Hajj stampede

like to see any1 else, regardless of which sect they are from do any better.

Its a fact of life, so many people together are constantly only minutes away from a crushing incident. Its inescapable.

[quote="latifah"]The Saudis are incompetent.

Thats why these events keep on happening.

These Saudis are fabulously wealthy but they still cannot deal with a large number of pilgrims despite plenty of notice.

They are not fit to control Mecca and Medina.[/quote]

tru

even though death is predestined-

too many deaths have taken place cos of their incompetence

There are so many people who take part in the hajj these days, yet it seems that the Saudis are totally unprepared to deal with such large numbers.

As i understand it, the facilities are little better than they were in the Ottoman times, 100 years ago.

[quote="Med"]like to see any1 else, regardless of which sect they are from do any better.

Its a fact of life, so many people together are constantly only minutes away from a crushing incident. Its inescapable.[/quote]

Good point.

Religious fervour and crowd control don't go together.

I dont think you can blame it all on the saudis,

Hajj is not an holiday
it aint supposed to be easy

the dead people are going to be rewarded straight to jannat , theres no where else in the world id rather die

[quote="RAF786"]
the dead people are going to be rewarded straight to jannat , theres no where else in the world id rather die[/quote]

Its a fact-but I doubt that would console hysterical mothers who have lost their babies as a result of bad management

The dead may be gifted a place in heaven, but that is unlikely to help the people left behind when their loved one is crushed to death.

With all the wealth in the world behind them, it is a pretty poor show from the Saudis that people are killed each year.

It seems to get worse every year.

so are the Saudis supposed to stop the angel of death at his appointed time?

If the saudis somehow had it so no crushing at all happened, and those who were destined to die by the ramp would still die there. Except now they might just drop dead, 360ish ppl just drop dead and then again investigations into why they died.

People have suggested that the stoning be staggered throughout the day. This way you avoid getting too many people in one place at any one time during the stoning.

But some insist on having it after (I think) Zuhr and before Asr .

[quote="Beast"]People have suggested that the stoning be staggered throughout the day. This way you avoid getting too many people in one place at any one time during the stoning.

But some insist on having it after (I think) Zuhr and before Asr .[/quote]

stoning must be done at prescribed times

[quote="Med"]so are the Saudis supposed to stop the angel of death at his appointed time?
.[/quote]

no

but they can stop doing crazy things that causes the death

e.g blocking entrances which caused the 2004 hajj stampede in Mina

people who are destined to die will die-but this doesnt dimish the responsibility of those who caused the death

The Saudis should understand that huge numbers of people are gonn decend on Mecca at this time.

Yet they provide minimum facilities .

100 years ago maybe 50,000 people would be there, now there are millions, yet the Saudis have done little to cater for such an increase in numbers.

That’s administrative incompetence.

[quote="latifah"]Yet they provide minimum facilities .

100 years ago maybe 50,000 people would be there, now there are millions, yet the Saudis have done little to cater for such an increase in numbers.

That’s administrative incompetence.[/quote]

The Saudi Government and Saudi People have done a lot for the pilgrims.

[quote="Med"]

The Saudi Government and Saudi People have done a lot for the pilgrims.[/quote]

I agree with that-serioulsy

my sister told me that every spot the coach stopped in hajj-the govement dished out free food to everyone

in Mina massive trucks used to come dishing out free food for EVERYONE

massive tents are put up for everyone in Mina

they dont have an easy job-overall they try to do their best

[quote="Med"]
The Saudi Government and Saudi People have done a lot for the pilgrims.[/quote]

Ofcourse.

It's their only remaining claim to legitimacy.

They're gonna milk it for all they can get.

I have never been to Mecca, so I cannot talk from personal experience, but it does seem that the authorities are unable to cope with such a large number of pilgrims, so the same problems happen year after year.

I wouldn’t be surprised if another stampede happens next year.

Things were better controlled in the Ottoman times.

[quote="latifah"]I have never been to Mecca, so I cannot talk from personal experience, but it does seem that the authorities are unable to cope with such a large number of pilgrims, so the same problems happen year after year.

I wouldn’t be surprised if another stampede happens next year.

Things were better controlled in the Ottoman times.[/quote]
i think thats an unfair comment, especially considering u havent been there.

i agree with LilSis's last post.

Well it does seem like these stampedes are an annual event, I don't know if that's indicative of Saudi incompetency or just the inevitability of having so many people in such a small area - especially when they are in an excited state throwing rocks.

However it seems to me that the Saudis should at least be better prepared for this rather normal occurrance by now... ambulances standing by and localized police might not be such a bad idea.

[quote="Andoverpolo"]ambulances standing by and localized police might not be such a bad idea.[/quote]
:| they already have that^ in place!!

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="Andoverpolo"]ambulances standing by and localized police might not be such a bad idea.[/quote]
:| they already have that^ in place!![/quote]

Oh...

Well then...

Carry on.

[quote="Andoverpolo"] I don't know if that's indicative of Saudi incompetency or just the inevitability of having so many people in such a small area - especially when they are in an excited state throwing rocks.
.[/quote]

to a certain extent-its a mixture of both reasons

mums done one hajj

dads done a couple

my sisters done one in 2004

and they all often go on and on about it

overall the deaths are inevitable-its just sumtimes its due to saudi incompetence

such as the stampede in 2004-and in that year the Saudi's admitted their mistake

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="latifah"]I have never been to Mecca, so I cannot talk from personal experience, but it does seem that the authorities are unable to cope with such a large number of pilgrims, so the same problems happen year after year.

I wouldn’t be surprised if another stampede happens next year.

Things were better controlled in the Ottoman times.[/quote]
i think thats an unfair comment, especially considering u havent been there.

i agree with LilSis's last post.[/quote]

My Gran went last year and she said that the organisation was pretty poor considering how much wealth the House of Saud has at its disposal.

I’ve also read about the organiaation of the hajj during the Ottoman times, and by the accounts I’ve read, it was very well arranged and controlled.

I still think the Saudis are incompetent.

[quote="latifah"]I’ve also read about the organiaation of the hajj during the Ottoman times, and by the accounts I’ve read, it was very well arranged and controlled.[/quote]
yeh - i doubt they had MILLIONS of pilgrims to manage in those days...

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="latifah"]I’ve also read about the organiaation of the hajj during the Ottoman times, and by the accounts I’ve read, it was very well arranged and controlled.[/quote]
yeh - i doubt they had MILLIONS of pilgrims to manage in those days...[/quote]

I heard n Islam channel they looking to increase the amount of people they allow every year

not a good idea IMO

I do agree with their-cant do another hajj within 5 years (or is it 2year) of ur last hajj rule

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="latifah"]I’ve also read about the organiaation of the hajj during the Ottoman times, and by the accounts I’ve read, it was very well arranged and controlled.[/quote]
yeh - i doubt they had MILLIONS of pilgrims to manage in those days...[/quote]

And those 'accounts' may have been written by a Med of a previous era. JOKE!!!

lol everything i've ever read about the Ottomans is a testament to their complete failure of organization.

Beys and Pashas constantly fighting with each other and with the Sublime Porte, various parts of the empire constantly on the brink of revolt - all riddled with bad lines of communication, intelligence, organizations, and terrible logistics.

Though i've never thought much of the Ottomans to begin with.

The ottomans had a decaying leadership.

That was always in turmoil.

The religious stuff was probably gven to the locals to take care of...

[quote="Andoverpolo"]lol everything i've ever read about the Ottomans is a testament to their complete failure of organization.

Beys and Pashas constantly fighting with each other and with the Sublime Porte, various parts of the empire constantly on the brink of revolt - all riddled with bad lines of communication, intelligence, organizations, and terrible logistics.

Though i've never thought much of the Ottomans to begin with.[/quote]

That's cos the Ottoman Empire wasn't allowed to just collapse.

If it collapsed it would have kicked-off a Europe-wide rush for formerly-Ottoman territories. So Europe dragged out the process of its demise and tried to control its disintegration.

[quote="Admin"]The ottomans had a decaying leadership.

That was always in turmoil.

The religious stuff was probably gven to the locals to take care of...[/quote]

lol sorta like administrative stuff.

I got the feeling the Ottomans basically constructed fortresses near cities - filled the fortresses [i]sometimes[/i] with troop garrisons and a "bey" - who were largely ignored by the locals who had their own sheikhs and bimbashis, until the bey decided to go local and turned his guns on the sublime porte.

At which time the Sublime Porte orders another local bey to take his garrison over to the unruly province - crush it - and garrison again.

[quote="Beast"][quote="Andoverpolo"]lol everything i've ever read about the Ottomans is a testament to their complete failure of organization.

Beys and Pashas constantly fighting with each other and with the Sublime Porte, various parts of the empire constantly on the brink of revolt - all riddled with bad lines of communication, intelligence, organizations, and terrible logistics.

Though i've never thought much of the Ottomans to begin with.[/quote]

That's cos the Ottoman Empire wasn't allowed to just collapse.

If it collapsed it would have kicked-off a Europe-wide rush for formerly-Ottoman territories. So Europe dragged out the process of its demise and tried to control its disintegration.[/quote]

But to a certain extent wasn't it already carved up in the Napoleonic Wars?

After Britain took back Egypt from the French it was basically an autonomous client state of the Empire... and a good 30-50 years later Eastern Europe revolted against Turkish rule.

What caused the decline of the Turks anyway (I get the feeling this is your domain)

[quote="Andoverpolo"]
What caused the decline of the Turks anyway (I get the feeling this is your domain)[/quote]

Can never remember too much from the top of my head, but:

From about the 16 century its administrative structure broke down. Maybe due to too many military comittments. Local 'rulers' emerged who were little more than bandits. It lost out on contact with the New World. Had no Industrial Revolution, lost out to those that did. Added to this was the development of nationalism (have to submit bad essay on nationalism tomorrow). Russia kept going to war against it. Europe kept carving it up. Fatally it chose the wrong side in WW1.