Chaos in Israel/Palestine

You —

Salaam.

1. Sharon has had a 'significant' [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4582574.stm]stroke[/url] which has led to massive bleeding in the brain - possibly life threatening.

2. In Gaza the Palestinians do not seem to be doing themseles any favours whatsoever. They have [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4580316.stm]stormed[/url] the border, The Alqasa martyrs brigade have fired bullets, and their leader is accused of asterminding the kidnapping of the three britons.

The chaos continue. On both sides.

Is Sharon irrelevant? Are the Palestinians destroying any hope of a Paestinian future?

Forum

*DUST* — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 11:15

Hamas WON??!! :shock:

but last night it said summat about exit polls suggesting Fatah was in the lead by a small amount, now it just says there are 'strong indications Hamas has won the election'.... :?:

You — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 18:29

I had little faith in democracy.

But today it brought a smile to my face.

GWB HAS to engage with them as he had been bleating on about democracy democracy democracy...

Dunno if its just an excuse for Israel to not negotiate, but Hamas have stuck to their ceasefire since last year...

You — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 20:42

How?

A vast majority of the people voted for them.

If it was a hung parliament, then maybe, but not with such a show of support for hamas.

*DUST* — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 22:47

[quote="Admin"]I had little faith in democracy.

But today it brought a smile to my face.

GWB HAS to engage with them as he had been bleating on about democracy democracy democracy...

Dunno if its just an excuse for Israel to not negotiate, but Hamas have stuck to their ceasefire since last year...[/quote]
i doubt it. :roll: they just 'bleat on' about democracy when it suits them and their agenda. in this case its an excuse to not engage in any peace deal.

but either way who gives a damn - the palestinians are happy today, so am i. 8) 😃

Sajid Iqbal — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:00

people have voted for hamaz because they had no faith in al fatah...

i dont support or agree with hamas but i can understand what they do...its easy for us sat in the west to analyse...

but i think now is the time for hamas to concentrate on improving the lives of the palestinians, get organised, get professional... and yes...stop the suicide bombings...

problem is hamaz does not recognise israel, and will not until israel ends the occupation, israel wants to destroy and dismantle hamas, so obviously hamas will continue to fight israel...

i cant see a solution...

Dave — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:01

I do not know how the United States will react to this...

Will Hamas come to the table for the roadmap?

*DUST* — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:03

[quote="TheRevivalEditor"]people have voted for hamaz because they had no faith in al fatah...

i dont support or agree with hamas but i can understand what they do...its easy for us sat in the west to analyse...

but i think now is the time for hamas to concentrate on improving the lives of the palestinians, get organised, get professional... and yes...stop the suicide bombings...

problem is hamaz does not recognise israel, and will not until israel ends the occupation, israel wants to destroy and dismantle hamas, so obviously hamas will continue to fight israel...

i cant see a solution...[/quote]
but as admin pointed out, hamas have stuck to their ceasefire...

*DUST* — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:04

[quote="Don Karnage"]I do not know how the United States will react to this...[/quote]
they already have:

[quote]GEORGE W BUSH, US President
The United States does not support a political party that wants to destroy our ally Israel. People must renounce that part of their platform. A political party that articulates the destruction of Israel as part of its platform is a party with which we will not deal.
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650196.stm]BBC[/url][/quo…]

Sajid Iqbal — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:06

[quote="Don Karnage"]I do not know how the United States will react to this...

Will Hamas come to the table for the roadmap?[/quote]

will they heck, they dont recognise israel, they dont believe in dialogue with israel because they see THEM as the terrorists an dthe occupiers...

road map is a joke anyway....

america has already reacted...

hamas terrorists
so dont talk to them
hamas has to give up violence
blah blah blah

same shud be said to israel... but nooooo
end occupation
end israel state terrorism
end assasinations

but of course, america aint got b*lls to say that to israel...

Dave — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:09

lol well, I shall follow how this plays out among the policy pundits with great interest.

You — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:11

'Ed you are too reactionary.

Hamas? EVIL EVIL EVIL!!!

the US? EVIL!!!EVIL!!!EVIL!!!EVIL!!!!!

If the US does not engage with the Palestinian Authority, it will show its hypocrisy. Afterall it was the US (AND Israel!) that kept bleeting on about democracy... the sword swings both ways.

Hamas as the group have a policy of no Israel, but their election pledge was that they will fight for Palestinians to have all land that was occupied by Israel after 1967.

Hamas is a very strong party. One wing of it is military. It has a full social infrastructure. Something the Palestinian Authority severely lacked. And it has showed it can control its members, which fatah could not do.

I wish them well.

Beast — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:12

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="Don Karnage"]I do not know how the United States will react to this...[/quote]
they already have:

[quote]GEORGE W BUSH, US President
The United States does not support a political party that wants to destroy our ally Israel. People must renounce that part of their platform. A political party that articulates the destruction of Israel as part of its platform is a party with which we will not deal.
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4650196.stm]BBC[/url][/quo…]

Hamas dropped the call for Israel's destruction from their election manifesto.

I won't be surprised if they drop it from their constitution too.

Hamas are pragmatists. They'll do what is expedient and beneficial for Palestinians.

*DUST* — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:13

[quote="Admin"]Hamas is a very strong party. One wing of it is military. It has a full social infrastructure. Something the Palestinian Authority severely lacked. And it has showed it can control its members, which fatah could not do.

I wish them well.[/quote]
ditto. 🙂

Dave i think the whole world is gonna be watching this closely to see how it plays out... 😉

Dave — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:15

[quote="Beast"]
I won't be surprised if the drop from their constitution too.
[/quote]

That would be in there interests

Beast — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:17

[quote="Don Karnage"][quote="Beast"]
I won't be surprised if the drop from their constitution too.
[/quote]

That would be in there interests[/quote]

So they'll do it.

Dave — Thu, 26 Jan 2006 - 23:25

Future suicide bombings against civilians carried out by Hamas are de facto carried out by the elected government of the Palestinian Authority as well - and if you thought Israel had a wide descretion when acting against the Palestinians now, it will be tenfold when they have a legitimate legal argument...

Hamas really needs to behave itself or this could be a very bad development for the Palestinians.

Medarris — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 19:33

They are a blessed party in a blessed land who carry out blessed acts and upon them are blessings inshaALLAH.

Sajid Iqbal — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 20:10

[quote="Med"]They are a blessed party in a blessed land who carry out blessed acts and upon them are blessings inshaALLAH.[/quote]

which blessed acts?
suicide attacks are blessed?
mmmhhh....

You — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 20:43

[quote="Don Karnage"]They bomb busses... in down town Tel Aviv - with [i]civilians[/i] on them.[/quote]

It all depends on what you call civillians. If you mean soldiers leaving their barracks (and I have heard that is a newsreport... the reporter said the bomb was blown up on the way from barrakcs to their manning points on Checkpoints in Gaza...), I can accept that.

Dave — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 20:52

[quote="Admin"][quote="Don Karnage"]They bomb busses... in down town Tel Aviv - with [i]civilians[/i] on them.[/quote]

It all depends on what you call civillians. If you mean soldiers leaving their barracks (and I have heard that is a newsreport... the reporter said the bomb was blown up on the way from barrakcs to their manning points on Checkpoints in Gaza...), I can accept that.[/quote]

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm]People[/url] [url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/19/bombings-glance.htm]ridin…] [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2050955.stm]busses[/url] [url=http://e.a.cnn.net/WORLD/9602/israel_explosion/index.html]are[/url] [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1131866,00.html]civilians…]

I'm a little confused at the people who know Hamas does this - they always claim their attacks:

[i]27 March: In the Israeli resort of Netanya, a bomber blows himself up at a hotel, killing 28 Israelis celebrating Passover. The attack claimed by the armed wing of Hamas was the deadliest since the beginning of the uprising.[/i]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm

Can go off and say bin Laden is a bad guy and that's not Islam and Islam is against killing civilians etc etc.

It's a non sequiter. All I can think of is that a jew doesn't count as a civilian.

I realize the Israelis do it to - but to religiously condone something like that "holy party" "blessed party" is different, religions aren't supposed to collapse their moral high ground just because the enemy is playing dirty.

The bad guys always play dirty - they're bad guys!!! Men and women make mistakes, thus it's not terribly shocking to see a country, like the United States, gradually making decisions that make it difficult to differenciate between us and the enemy.

And that is the same reason why I can understand people liking Hamas et cetera - saying good things abuot them and the like, humans aren't perfect or eternal. But this religious connotation to the laudations many of yall are adding the "inshaAllahs" and "blessed party" talk - confuses me greatly.

Religion is different - it's supposed to be eternal, the temporary enemy of the moment is supposed to be able to say or do whatever it wants - reaching new lows at every turn, but the religion is supposed to maintain its message consistently even when it looks bleak.

With religion it's not supposed to be about "well they do it too" - that's for people, people can argue that and do, and it's not about there being no options left - these aren't things that are supposed to matter to the eternal and immortal "religion of God."

So for those of you saying holy party blessed party - what is your religious explanation knowing full well Hamas kills civilians, intends to kill civilians, and acknowledges when they do it?

Hadith - Qur'an, give me something tangible other than personal opinion to look at here.

[quote="TheRevivalEditor"][quote="Med"]They are a blessed party in a blessed land who carry out blessed acts and upon them are blessings inshaALLAH.[/quote]

which blessed acts?
suicide attacks are blessed?
mmmhhh....[/quote]

Ed - if you want to take the counter here since it seems you are one of the only if not the only muslim on this thread so far to not push that position.
111111111111
I'll just watch.

You — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 20:57

I would not say the acts are 'religious acts'.

They are as part of a very dirty war.

The killing if civillians is not justified through qur'an and hadith.

Neither side can be fully condoned for their actions.

Terrorists are fighting anti-terrorists. But different people give different sides those names.

Dave — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:06

Right however Admin, you haven't said anything so far connecting Hamas to religion. I'm not asking peoples feelings on Hamas outside religion - I'm talking mostly about Med:

[quote="Med"][b]IMPORTANT REQUEST:[/b]

Make dua for the holy party to be victorious.[/quote]

[quote="Med"]The holy party has won?

ALLAH tera laak laak shukr hai.

Thanks be to God.

I am happy.

[url=http://www.aqsa.org.uk/news_detail.aspx?newsid=419]Who are Hamas?[/url][/quote]

[quote="Med"]They are a blessed party in a blessed land who carry out blessed acts and upon them are blessings inshaALLAH.[/quote]

And even (forgive me if I misunderstood) Dust:

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="Med"][b]IMPORTANT REQUEST:[/b]

Make dua for the holy party to be victorious.[/quote]
InshaAllah they will be. [/quote]

And anyone else who is of this opinion

Who are talking about Hamas in [i]religious terms[/i] as if Hamas is doing God's work or will.

Where are they getting this from if they understand that Hamas has and does kill civilians intentionally - when they have been telling me consistently, and Ed still is, that this is against Islamic teachings.

It's a question about Islam, not an opinion poll.

Why from the perspective of members who are connecting Hamas to religion, is the injunction against killing civilians waved for Israel - when you very same people were saying 9/11 was abhorrently against Islam for this very reason?

I can't really offer a position here since I don't know the religion.

You — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:13

Hamas is more than the military wing they are described as.

Its a full social organisation.

Even from the military wing there are many different people with different ideas.

I will support legitimate operations against soldiers, and condemn the targetting of civillians.

The situation is different as they have no other way to resist occupation. They have no recognised army, no recognised borders, and the Israelis fight by bulldozing neighbourhoods, airstrikes, military assaults, assassinations, and grabbing important lands. They have a total control over everyrthing. Even the water supplies.

Just like the resistance in france in WW2, the things carried out can be unsavoury to say the least.

You cannot expect a people not to resist occupation. They will do whatever they can. After all Hamas et al were shut up after the Oslo peace accord. That did not achieve anything.

It was Ben Gurhon who said he will not stop fighting and committing terrorist acts until there was a home he could call Israel.

It was Ehud Barak who said if he were palestian, he would have become a terrorist.

You — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:26

[quote="Don Karnage"]Admin - are you on board with this "Holy Party" point of view?[/quote]

how is it holy?

where did it gets its divine right? Same place as GWB?

(so, no.)

Dave — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:29

Okay... then the question doesn't really apply to you.

No offense naturally, but I don't want this to turn into a "who likes Hamas" question, it's specifically about those that find some connection religiously to it.

Also - is it blasphemous to attach "holy" "blessed" or imply it's what God wants and the like if there is nothing in the Qur'an, Shariah, or Hadith to support that elevation?