Can British Muslims and Jews get along and still have divergent political beliefs?

100 —

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Dave — Mon, 3 Oct 2005 - 18:59

[quote="Med"]Dave u are a zionist. Youre claim that jews have a right to palestine cos they been there for 50 yrs is ludicrous. God will avenge the oppressed people, dont worry about that.[/quote]

Well,

That's a well thought out response.

Med, the only thing that is ludicrous is this idiotic idea that we should ship "the jews" "back home" because they "don't belong there."

Hell if being opposed to racist deportation is "zionist" then somebody mail me a Star of David.

lol how many times have the people on this forum have angerly discussed (and rightly so) how frighteningly delusional the BNP is for suggesting Britain ship the Asians "back home?"

What exactly is the difference between your generation who grew up in Britain and knew nothing other than Britain - and your generation of Israelis who grew up in Israel and know nothing other than Israel?

Oh wait... they're Jewish. "Zionist" as you prefer.

These people didn't settle Israel did they? Isreal was born in 48 - which means everybody under the age of 56 was born in the already created State of Israel - are you telling me that by virtue of their jewishness they somehow inherit the guilt of stripping others of their land?

I don't know what's more disturbing, that the argument itself is psychotic or that it is motivated by racial or religious intolerance.

But frankly if being a "zionist" means escaping that sort of thought process, then like I said before send me that Star of David.

There are no innocent people in the holy land if you believe in collective guilt - simple as that. The Jordanians and Egyptians that lived there before the Jews of Israel are the descendants of the muslims that stole it from the christians who stole it from the muslims who stole it from the christians who stole it from the pagans who stole it from the jews who stole it from the canaanites who stole it from the hittites who stole it from the akkadians who stole it from the natufians.

The fact of the matter is that both the Israelis by virtue of being there for over 50 years, and the Palestinians by virtue of being there for even more than that have equal claim to the land. Is that fair? No. Is that Just? Yes.

Justice isn't fairness, otherwise lex talionis would be the reigning law of the land.

That's why I believe in the two state solution - put them together and they will tear each other apart, but give each state enough land for a viable economy and the necessities of human life and perhaps they will find a seperate peace in the future.

And this "God's on our team" mentality is just flat out childish.

What's this we - them stuff incidentally? Am I the only person here talking as a third party? How can any of you say that this isn't just religious pride talking when you are talking about God avenging the muslims et cetera?

Like I said before those arguments are counterproductive - and irrelevant. I'm speaking as the secular third party that got dragged into this when the Brits decided they were just going to withdraw from their empire and let the natives slug it out until death. My earlier point is only that it is counterproductive and totally irrelevant for a muslim to talk about God avenging the muslims and killing the kuffr to a secular nation of primarily Christians. lol that's not a religious argument that's just a fact of rhetoric - going clear back to Aristotle "know your audience."

I'm interested in helping the most people and ending or managing the crisis in Palestine, not making sure my team wins the pennant - perhaps you and Judda do not have these goals clearly in mind.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for this "ship them home" garbage.

You — Mon, 3 Oct 2005 - 21:22

Dave is not a zionist from what I have read of him.

However the current israeli PM is. and a historically millitant at that.

Hiowever this thread is not about Israel and its problems. Leave such a thing to an Israel or palestine thread.

This thread is about muslims and jews.

At uni, a friend of mine lived with 7 jews in his first years. (He was one muslim, and seven ews in his flat! The uni location programme was brilliant for him..)

However he said that the learned jews from them were mostly not sure about the jewish right of israel, but the secular were adamant about it.

The religious ones who had studied judaism could see the problems and fallacies in the creationand running of the jewish state. He actually got along with them.

100 where do you stand on this?

Ging Ging — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 09:25

Hi Dave,

(Sorry admin, last reply on this thread).

The difference between "immigrants" into Britain and Jewish settlers is obvious.

The British government openly invited immigration for politcal / economic reasons. We were not "settled" and then forced by foreign governments to accept a seperate nation of people based supposedly on religious entitlement, and have our land steadily taken by any means necessary. You cannot ignore the basis of this conflict and justify it on the, possession being nine tenths of the law idea.

It isn't about religious pride, its about a "godly" justice. Isn't that what saying that having a god given right to Israel means, in effect.

TTFN :twisted:

Medarris — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 10:12

the difference is the land is ALLAH's and we have brought imaan on ALLAH and Islam. The jews have rejected ALLAH and His Favours and have no right to dominion in that land. We muslims here have no dominion we are subjects of the crown, the jews have no dominion in palestine they are subjects of the muslim rulers.

Dave — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 13:16

[quote="Ging Ging"]Hi Dave,

(Sorry admin, last reply on this thread).

The difference between "immigrants" into Britain and Jewish settlers is obvious.

The British government openly invited immigration for politcal / economic reasons. We were not "settled" and then forced by foreign governments to accept a seperate nation of people based supposedly on religious entitlement, and have our land steadily taken by any means necessary. You cannot ignore the basis of this conflict and justify it on the, possession being nine tenths of the law idea.

It isn't about religious pride, its about a "godly" justice. Isn't that what saying that having a god given right to Israel means, in effect.

TTFN :twisted:[/quote]

Actually palestine was under British control and jews were invited to immigrate to it - then the British empire relinquished control.

You have such pretty words for such a deadly idea "godly justice" et cetera. The tragic fact of the matter is we have 2 generations - going on 3 of Israelis that were born and raised in Israel, by mere accident of birth.

They have equal claim to the land both by standards of international law and simple morality. Unfortunately there are palestinians with lesser claim to the pre 67 borders and greater claim to the land for the post 67 borders; but we are going to have to accept that us unfortunate - since the alternatives:

1. Handing over all the land to the Palestinians so that Hamas can kill every last Jew, and

2. Deporting all the Israeli [u]Jews[/u] "back home" so the "Muslims" can have the land "back" - Judda and Med's apparent position (explain to me how this is not religious pride?)

Are simply unacceptable to anyone with an ounce of compassion.

judda — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 15:59

u got no compassion dave

u is a zionist

we is not allowed to talk to evil zionists

zionists are only happy when we join them, if we do we are one of them, if we are one of them we will go to hell.

there was a shortage of skilled workers in briton so ethnic minorities were asked to come.

the jews r no use in israil.

they is killing muslims

they are a massive problem

but i is happy to go along with this unfair 2 state idea...

Medarris — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 16:49

[quote="Constantine"] -
2. Deporting all the Israeli [u]Jews[/u] "back home" so the "Muslims" can have the land "back" - Judda and Med's apparent position (explain to me how this is not religious pride?)

[/quote]

Whats so wrong with my position? I fully admit that my stance is based on religion, it wont have any validity for you because you're not a muslim, youre a zionist. But for me, alhamdulillah who has been given the truth, this is the perfect, true and divine solution.

Dave — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 17:25

[quote="Med"][quote="Constantine"] -
2. Deporting all the Israeli [u]Jews[/u] "back home" so the "Muslims" can have the land "back" - Judda and Med's apparent position (explain to me how this is not religious pride?)

[/quote]

Whats so wrong with my position? I fully admit that my stance is based on religion, it wont have any validity for you because you're not a muslim, youre a zionist. But for me, alhamdulillah who has been given the truth, this is the perfect, true and divine solution.[/quote]

lol so this is Islam then.

Very well.

You — Tue, 4 Oct 2005 - 22:26

I would say the Palestinians need to stop asking for their own state.

They should ask for equal voting rights based on a proportional representation system.

At the same time, give the same right of return to foriegn jews as refugees currently in forced exile.

It would be ironic to see them have the minority power in their own country within a few years.

Ging Ging — Wed, 5 Oct 2005 - 14:04

Hi Dave,

That comment about "godly justice" a feeble attempt at explaining what I thought the difference between that and religious pride was, it wasn't meant as a statement of fact. Sorry.

The history of Israeli occupation goes a lot deeper and is a lot more complicated than the British inviting jews to Palestine. There is some good information on The Guardian web pages, I don't have the addresss.

TTFN

:twisted: