Dead Sea Scrolls

[quote="Omrow"]Salam

Not all of the ancient documents have been made public.

Professor Geza Vermes who smells something fishy says that certain important scrolls are still in hands of only a few academics who are "approved"by the religious establishment. Public is not allowed open access to any of the most important secret scrolls. I wonder why. He wrote many books on the subject of these manuscripts.

Omrow[/quote]

Such as the Damascus Document from Cave 4 that refers to the Son of God.

I doubt there is any conspiracy involved here, it's a jumbled mess of crumbling material that will take decades to decode and publish.

[quote="Constantine"]

Such as the Damascus Document from Cave 4 that refers to the Son of God.

I doubt there is any conspiracy involved here, it's a jumbled mess of crumbling material that will take decades to decode and publish.[/quote]

But... would you say that if they were found to be authentic and validated Christianity, beyond any reasonable doubt, therefore negating Judaism and Islam?

[quote="Aphrodite"][quote="Constantine"]

Such as the Damascus Document from Cave 4 that refers to the Son of God.

I doubt there is any conspiracy involved here, it's a jumbled mess of crumbling material that will take decades to decode and publish.[/quote]

But... would you say that if they were found to be authentic and validated Christianity, beyond any reasonable doubt, therefore negating Judaism and Islam?[/quote]

I would think that if there were documents from that early on (1st and 2nd C) that refer to the "Son of God" it certainly negates the premise that the divinity of Christ was a modern innovation.

However I already consider the Qur'an negated by several outside sources like the testimony of Josephus (1st c) that refer to the crucifixion of Jesus and all his followers, as well as the unchanged nature of the Greek bible as compared to many of the translated scrolls that indicates the bible - especially the torah has in fact not changed all that drastically over the years.

So to me it really wouldn't matter what's in the scrolls unless it completely negated those two.

But I am starting to doubt if we can gain any real useful Christian knowledge from them, it appears that this tribe of "essenes" were some sort of clandestine jewish movement that had all sorts of prophets and messiahs I have never heard about, also from what I am reading they considered Jesus a false prophet and are doubtful to portray him in any favorable light.

Time will tell of course and I am eager to read the rest of the translations.

[quote="Constantine"]also from what I am reading they considered Jesus a false prophet and are doubtful to portray him in any favorable light...[/quote]

To me that bit is interesting.

They consider a false prophet. Not a false son of God.

So if people considered him a 'son of god', why would they call him a false prophet?

Just some food for thought

(I bet soon Aphro will arrive with jaffa cakes... :twisted: )

[quote="Admin"][quote="Constantine"]also from what I am reading they considered Jesus a false prophet and are doubtful to portray him in any favorable light...[/quote]

To me that bit is interesting.

They consider a false prophet. Not a false son of God.

So if people considered him a 'son of god', why would they call him a false prophet?

Just some food for thought

(I bet soon Aphro will arrive with jaffa cakes... :twisted: )[/quote]

When Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin he was accused of being a false prophet however they repeatedly asked him if he was the king of the jews or son of God.

In the Jewish faith God has no Son, thus calling him a false son of God is somewhat blasphemous - it's not a category

Obviously a prophet claiming divinity will be accused of falsehood.

Also we - Christians - give Jesus the titled Prophet all the time.

*looks in* Addy, I'm all out of jaffa cakes, sowwy! I do, however, have shortbread...

*goes to check oven*

Whats up with you ladies and cooking in mid discussion?

We are talented. We can multi-task

[quote="Aphrodite"]We are talented. We can multi-task[/quote]

Translation: When they're in confused, they start cooking...

lol

joke.

[quote="Seraph"][quote="Aphrodite"]We are talented. We can multi-task[/quote]

Translation: When they're in confused, they start cooking...

lol

joke.[/quote]

Correction: Women take time to think before opening our gobs, thus being less at risk of contracting foot-in-mouth disease then our male counterpants. In that time we can do a multi-tude of other things. Again, we multi-task

[quote="Seraph"][quote="Aphrodite"]We are talented. We can multi-task[/quote]

Translation: When they're in confused, they start cooking...

lol

joke.[/quote]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh

Seraph just won.

[quote="Constantine"][quote="Seraph"][quote="Aphrodite"]We are talented. We can multi-task[/quote]

Translation: When they're in confused, they start cooking...

lol

joke.[/quote]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh

Seraph just won.[/quote]

You really should take a few more deep breaths before letting rip on the keyboard, Emperor

lol that was too good

too too good

you got schooled

[quote="Constantine"]lol that was too good

too too good

you got schooled[/quote]

Pray tell, what does 'you got schooled' mean? I am unfamiliar with the term

Its when somebody has too good a rip to come back to.

Thus you were taught what an insult is.

And how do jehovah's witnesses tie in?

They aren't really Christians, and they don't subscribe to Arianism (I don't think anybody does anymore)

They aren't Christian not because of their whacky model for God "reflection" but rather because they are totally insane.

It is sort of like a muslim that says "There is no God but God and Muhammad is his Prophet" and youre nodding your head thinking "yup, definitely a muslim" and then they say "and God prefers green cheese thus nobody may go to heaven without cheese, so sayeth the Lord"

At which point you lean forward a little bit fold your right leg over your left, frown, scratch your head and raise your hand for the inevitable question "huh?"

They think that they know the name of God, and further think they have the right to use it to establish some sort of relationship in which you get to control him or something like that.

They are a cult - little more.

Arianism is simply a heretical model to explain the mystery of God. The place where it runs afoul is when it describes Jesus as not existing at a certain time in the past and making him less than the Father. This challenges the Oneness of God as well as the existence of One God and comes dangerously close to polytheism.

Reflection (what JW's believe) as far as I understand it doesn't contradict scripture - it's just weird. Modalism makes the most sense to me or at least it's in the right vein, I am beginning to have a new respect for the trinitarian model but i'm far from subscribing to it.

I am not fully convinced we are meant to know the nature of God.

JWs, I have a soft spot for the humble ones.

lol you don't actually let them in do you?

No. I like a conversation but not under false pretenses. I tell them I'm Jewish and ask if they've ever thought about becoming Jews, and by choice they stop visiting.

[quote="100"]No. I like a conversation but not under false pretenses. I tell them I'm Jewish and ask if they've ever thought about becoming Jews, and by choice they stop visiting.[/quote]

lol a little more humane than the golf cart method.

They make good magazines. I don't leave them on the coffee table but they're a good read and JW models look very happy and clean to boot. Credit where credit's due, always take magazines.
/good bit of editing.

Aren't those the ones that talk about the end of the world coming tomorrow.

And 1987

And 2000

And 2001?

I don't think so - maybe. There's often evangelicals with loudspeakers round Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street and I know they aren't very happy about things, but they aren't very convincing, I guess their recruit base is homeless alcoholic smack addicts on Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street (not to mention the Speaker's Corner brigades). The ones in Manchester Piccadilly Gardens are excellent though, always inviting me to a [i]great[/i] party, on Sunday, morning.

I bet the US ones have got it down pat, there's money in it over there.

The JWs over here are pushy as hell - you tell them know they ask what time they can come back you tell them never they say 5:00.

The evangelicals are amazing though... really got that hitlerian mass gathering strategy down.

And of course they feed audiences soundbite Christianity.

Sinners! You're all going to hell! Join us and be saved!

- Where do I sign?

lol that's about right

Hey can't argue with progess - Falwell is building a 12000 seat sanctuary.

Maybe i'm not really a Christian afterall.

Can't help you on that. We're all human. OK, strictly I'm half-human half-reptilian but that's a whole other conversation. Gotta curl up, good night, Constantine.

G'night

[quote="100"]I don't think so - maybe. There's often evangelicals with loudspeakers round Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street and I know they aren't very happy about things, but they aren't very convincing, I guess their recruit base is homeless alcoholic smack addicts on Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street (not to mention the Speaker's Corner brigades). The ones in Manchester Piccadilly Gardens are excellent though, always inviting me to a [i]great[/i] party, on Sunday, morning.

I bet the US ones have got it down pat, there's money in it over there.[/quote]

There's this one guy I saw at Kensington last year, when I took my kids to the museums - he was standing in the subway between the Natural History and the Science Museums. Ignored him, he shouts too much. Scares little kids with a loud-haler. A coupla weeks later, went to the Tate Modern - he's there, right by the mouth of the Millenium Bridge. A few weeks later, at Stratford garage, near Kelly Holmes' leg. Then again, outside Niketown on Oxford Street. Then outside Waterstones on the corner of Oxford and Tottenham Ct Rd - less then ten minutes later. He walks at a snail's pace - how the heck he get there? Same guy. Is he following me? Has God given him my itinery? I'm convinced he's not human. When I [i]politely[/i] *ahem* adviced him to seek employment, he glared for about 23 seconds - without blinking... The end of the world is nye, ya know...