I know there's rules and regulations in Islam about taking someone else's life. They're pretty beautiful and just and fair rules too.
I'm asking if you're stuck in a situation where you might have to take someone else's life. for example self defence, or defending someone else, or coming across a "bad" guy escaping. how "bad" must he be?
I've never held a gun but would you ever pull the trigger on someone? with the possibility of killing them? are you aware of the where to aim to kill and where to aim to not kill - here im not just talking about shooting, im talking about harming in any way (stab, hit, punch etc..) and im not talking about harming for the sake of harming. Im talking about DEFENCE.
I'd rather learn to be able to incapacitated someone than kill them.
but what about those "movies" situation. what if you were standing in front of a serial killer about to escape and you had all confirmation that he didnt have a legit excuse/was mentally ill, that this guy was just a psychopath and he's about to escape. would you kill him/her?
what if someone is attacking an old lady? what would you do then?
what if you get attacked in the street? and you figure out they intend to kill you. i'd kill them before they kill me. what if they intend to rape you?
what about a HOSTAGE situation!
Is it possible to kill someone by accident?
Self-defence is awesome. I tried it on someone and nearly broke their arm.
It should be made part of the curriculum.
yes, involuntary manslaughter.
Back in BLACK
In a safe environment you can do pretty much anything, but in a real fight situation where the other persons gonna fight light mad. Its a whole other ball game.
Training helps but in the end its about what are you prepared to do.
Back in BLACK
You need to think super quick in a real situation, so long you have the training its all about putting it in practice.
It doznt matter if theyre a serial killer, psychopath, drug dealer. Its never ok to kill. Unless you're fighting a war.
You come across any one of these & you have a choice. Fight or flight.
You either confront them or you run away. Its like the woolwich situation. That lady who tried to help. She could have ran but she decided to stay and help by trying to talk the guy down.
If you decide to fight; then you must be prepared for the other person to put up the fight of their life. They will not make it easy for you. They wont let you get a certain hold onto them. They WILL try and hurt you. IN my experience it becomes a slugfest: to see who can hit who the hardest and the fastest until one cant continue anymore.
I would always go to incapacitate any opponent. But if someone tries to kill you, you have every right to try and use whatever force necessary to try and repel that attack. The legal definition being 'a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders.' Which means you can only use a level of force that the average person would consider reasonable in those circumstance. So you cant plead self defence if someone is running away from you and You shoot them in the back. Not a reasonable use of force.
Self defence training helps ofcourse (assuming you train long and hard till it all becomes second nature). But in the end its down to your own will power and what you are prepared to do.
Back in BLACK
what are you, personally, prepared to do? personally, would you aim to kill someone? for whatever reason?
i dont think us humans are made to kill each other, it does something to our head i think, its against our nature aint it?
so, in islam we arent allowed to go after someone who murdered our family and kill him ourselves? it has to go through the judge/head of state etc.. right?
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
I think its ok to kill people in movies and games
Other than that, no I wouldnt want to be in a position where the issues of life or death are decided by my actions.
There may be situations where its necessary, but I wouldn't say it is ok even then.
Taking a life can be one of the biggest sins possible.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
What if you're put in a situation where the 'gang' are armed with weapons and you're not? You don't have to take a life to defend yourself, but you can use force- even if it results in involuntary manslaughter. Your natural thought is self-preservation. People don't choose to put themselves in such situations. It's difficult to say what you would/would not do.
i just thought of this scenario and thought i'd kill the person straight: if someone is pointing a gun at an old lady and ive got the opportunity to take that person out.
THEN i thought no, i shouldnt kill that person, because i dont know their life, or why they are doing this.
so conclusion for me, i wont be aiming to kill anyone, just incapacitate. in whatever situation. i dont have the right to end someone's life. i dont know their past and I dont know their future and i dont have the right to end it, to stop that future from happening. and i dont knw what they might have become, someone greater than me.
ithink each individual need to think this through and come up with their own conclusion/reasoning. i feel like thinking abt stuff like this is worth it,coz you usually dont get notified before being put in a situation like that.
gosh we're so numbed by society...
also, dont agree in killing in movies/games. just desensitizes. especially for young developping minds. i try to keep my brother as far away from killing games as possible. being desensitised to (or from?) death, is NEVER and will NEVER be a good thing.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
So you'd let them kill the old lady?
How do you plan to incapacitate them if it's just you and the hostage?
well if i got a gun, then shoot them in the arm, leg. then knock them out i guess.
literally speaking though, if it was just me and the hostage. I'll think about how God wouldnt be happy with me and let her go.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
I think your assumption that you could be so rational in such a situation may be wrong. What people think they'd do/want to do can be very different from what they do in situations.
I wouldn't want to kill anyone and if I really had to, I'd shoot at their leg or something but who knows what'd happen in reality. May Allah protect us from ever being in such a situation, ameen.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
why wouldnt you be able to?
thats why i thought, if you think about this before hand and tell yourself "i will never kill a human being as long as i can help it" and believe in that statement and internalize it, then when a situation like should ever arise there wont be some doubt or some "what shall i do" stuff. no?
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
To everyone said they would shoot the person.... Where the blue blazes did you get a gun from?
youre assuming the attack will be on equal footing. When in most cases it would be when your attacker had the advantage. So he wud have a gun or a knife and im assuming you guys dont walk around with a gun in ur pocket/purse so you'd have nothing.
NOW what would you do?
Back in BLACK
talk, talk and get closer and piss them off so they lose they cool when you're close enough to grab them and get the gun out, then yeah, what you describe, its going to turn into a fight. or you manage to get the gun and then they dont know that you vowed to never kill a human.
so, we're girls, and weaker than most males, what are we suppose to do, run away from those situation? hope some guy will have the guts to do what we dont have the strength to do?
im just going to pray i dont fall into such a situation until i've develop some strength and techniques on immobilizing and whatnot.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
maybe if you hurted them not intending to kill and then they died from that/those wound/s?
also, as _Me_ said previously. when self preservation kicks in, then it just comes down to whatever it takes to stay alive.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
@ sephy I thought in this hypothetical situation, that LTS had made up, I was given a gun - it was just part of the story.
@lilly I dunno, I don't think it'd be so easy when you're in such a tense situation. I wonder if there's any studies related to it.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Here are two famous studies which are somewhat relevant - showing good/normal people can do bad/evil things.
">http://youtu.be/pdb20gcc_Ns]
and
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14564182
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
the stanford exp..
anyway, im not saying do something BAD! im saying, if someone looks like they deserve to die, would you do it.
my conclusion is that no one ever looks like they deserve to die. that I cnt be the judge of that.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
What about the stanford project?
I didn't say u were asking about something bad, I was just pointing out people can do bad things though they may not want to or may not think they are capable of doing so.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
oh i get you now, yes yes i see your point.
the stanford project was amazing and crazy and scary. humbling also.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Feefs, you've made me feel clever cause i've studied Milgram and the variations of his study. (I hope you're not upset over the fact that I've ditched psychology regardless of how interesting it is lol). The results were ever so shocking but in my head, I deny it. How can something like that be true? :S Maybe i underestimate the capabilties of humans.
I once attended a self defense session but I've forgotten absolutely everything. I only remembered a few by the time i came home and now self defense tactics are out of my memory. They are effective, but when you're in that situation you have no time whatsoever to recap what you were taught. It all happens way too quickly.
I don't know what i'd do in such a situation, but i think my gut instinct would be to run. RUN as fast as i can and shout BYE at the same time. And if I can't run, i *think* i'd just let them kill me. Is that a normal thing to do? I just think that whatever happens, justice will always prevail.
thing is, they might not be looking to kill you. especially when you're a girl. but you're right. justice will prevail.
learnign a martial art though is quite fun.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Yep the resulsts are pretty shocking, however I can believe them. Did you do look into minority and majority influence? It's things like that, when they're put into real life context that you realise what people can - surprisngly easily- can get into and do.
However I found the stamford project very shocking and I'm still surprised of everything that happened - mainly because it all happened in a short period of time. But it did happen! :O
And yeah, I think you'd have to go to self defence lessons for a long time to be able to actually think clearly enough to use them when needed. I'm not sure if I'd run or freeze there lol
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
@Feefs, yupp i did study that one and the one's about making someone else do it and having disobedient confederates, etc. It's just scary knowing that people who don't even know you would do such a thing on the say so of a man in white clothes.
I didnt click on the link for the Stamford Project? Is that to do with the prison experiment? Zimbardo? We went into it, but briefly, and I can't remember what the results were either. Sorry.
You need people to practise on, and even when you do practise - You'd tell you're friend or sister or brother, 'come along and pretend you're going to kill me' and then you'll show them your moves. It's not the same. Here you're getting ready and in those situations you're never ready at all. Maybe for 'practice' it could help.