Can believers be selfless?

Yes you can be selfless.

Just because you also get a bonus doesn't mean that it is less selfless.

[quote=Patience]Most believer won't be going to heaven through default. U gotta deserve it. Therefore NOT selfless.[/quote]

real believers will by default go.

yes you can be selfless. Jannah is out of the equation.

but in what sense do you mean? do you want total and utter selflessness? i dont think thats in any way possible. if someone is known to be "selfless" they do it coz they enjoy it. so you could say that's not selflessness. but thats just taking it too far and being silly. same for a believer/muslim.

are we talking about altruism here?

[quote=Patience]

But if a believer labels himself selfless and altruistic then I have a tendency to scoff at the notion in a "yeah right, course you are" attitude.[/quote]

hence why they want to fit into that human-invented word. coz people like you make them feel that way. that's not the way to act with someone. that's just been mean and condensing. explain them the way you explained it to us right now:

[quote=Patience]If doing good things in the name of God and for the sake of spending the eternal life after death in Heaven is selfish then so be it!

Stop slapping words invented to describe behavior of a person who doesn't care about Heaven or cares about God or life after death consequences just to fit in. [/quote]

that was awesome mashaaAllah.

For some reason I thought of this Rabia Basri poem

"O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”

and thought that this maybe shows in some ways, doing moral acts just to avoid going to Hell or to go to Heaven is neither genuinely altruistic nor would it even be that valuable to God?

[quote=Patience]

Who cares? [/quote]

Good question. In an ideal world everyone would do things purely selflessly and I used to think that moral acts didn't matter unless done with pure intentions but I don't think so as much now. I mean to take an extreme example, If the only thing stopping a murderer was fear of God/the state punishing him, then I don't think it really matters that his intentions were not totally moral. But I'd like to think some people, incl. religious people were altruistic.

[quote=Patience]It's funny how she's the ONLY person to have said that and there have been research into her sanity.

Did she ever get married?[/quote]

Its been quoted many times since she said it. Maybe no one felt they could put it any better than that, I quite like the sentiment, even if it's probably slightly unrealistic.

Apparently she had many offers but didn't, no.

[quote=Patience]WERE? not any more? and who do you have in mind?

What made you change your mind?[/quote]

Well I'd like to think they were altruistic and remained so lol

I dunno, maybe studying it, Philosophy of Morality pretty much crushes the idea of genuine altruism to the ground with psychological egoism, ethical egoism etc etc. And I think just general life, hate to sound jaded but it's not easy to find genuinely selfless people nowadays, especially in such a materialistic/capitalistic society.

[quote=Patience][quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone][quote=Patience]It's funny how she's the ONLY person to have said that and there have been research into her sanity.

Did she ever get married?[/quote]

Its been quoted many times since she said it. Maybe no one felt they could put it any better than that, I quite like the sentiment, even if it's probably slightly unrealistic.

Apparently she had many offers but didn't, no.[/quote]

And apparently Marriage is half of deen. I wonder why she rejected all those offers...

Maybe no one felt they could put it any better than that, I quite like the sentiment, even if it's probably slightly unrealistic.

Seriously? o.O lame! That's just being polite.[/quote]

Cos she wanted to devote all her love/time to God or smth.

and Shut up! ¬_¬ Im sure eventually I'll be a miserable cynic like you but just let me enjoy what little time I have left will you?! -.-

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

I dunno, maybe studying it, Philosophy of Morality pretty much crushes the idea of genuine altruism to the ground with psychological egoism, ethical egoism etc etc. [/quote]
What's the difference between the two?

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

Cos she wanted to devote all her love/time to God or smth.
[/quote]
That's not something that's recommended in Islam, is it? Like you're supposed 'to live in this world without letting the world live in you' ...or whatever the saying is :p

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

I dunno, maybe studying it, Philosophy of Morality pretty much crushes the idea of genuine altruism to the ground with psychological egoism, ethical egoism etc etc. [/quote]
What's the difference between the two?[/quote]

Erm I did this in college so I might get it wrong but afaik
Psychological egoism = No matter what, people ARE always motivated by their own self interest, even if it seems like they're not. We only ever do things if we think they'll benefit us eventually.

Ethical egoism = people SHOULD always do what is in their own interest,
and there are types of both. And more branches I think besides those.

[quote=Patience]

I don't wish that on anyone! Sorry. and I'm not a miserable cynic I just realized that even rose tinted specs can be faulty.

[/quote]

Yeah, I guess everyone does eventually.

[quote=Patience]

Exactly my point! But not as technical as you've put it[/quote]

Peoples is bad innit bro. 😛

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

Erm I did this in college so I might get it wrong but afaik
Psychological egoism = No matter what, people ARE always motivated by their own self interest, even if it seems like they're not. We only ever do things if we think they'll benefit us eventually.

Ethical egoism = people SHOULD always do what is in their own interest,
and there are types of both. And more branches I think besides those.[/quote]
Ah ok, thanks.

I think I agree more with the former than the latter. Though at times, yes it is best to act in your interest.

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

Cos she wanted to devote all her love/time to God or smth.
[/quote]
That's not something that's recommended in Islam, is it? Like you're supposed 'to live in this world without letting the world live in you' ...or whatever the saying is :p[/quote]

I'd probably say it was for God to decide whether it was bad or not that someone wanted to devote their whole life to His worship 🙂

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

I'd probably say it was for God to decide whether it was bad or not that someone wanted to devote their whole life to His worship :)[/quote]
Of course. And she sounds pretty awesome - I'd love to get to her level of love for Allah (swt). MashaAllah.

Just saying, in Islam there isn't that concept of actually devoting your life to God, like say a nun does.

And you can devote your life to God by living a 'normal' life - but doing everything with the intention that it is for Allah.

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

I'd probably say it was for God to decide whether it was bad or not that someone wanted to devote their whole life to His worship :)[/quote]
Of course. And she sounds pretty awesome - I'd love to get to her level of love for Allah (swt). MashaAllah.

Just saying, in Islam there isn't that concept of actually devoting your life to God, like say a nun does.

And you can devote your life to God by living a 'normal' life - but doing everything with the intention that it is for Allah.[/quote]

I guess. I think the general argument against that kinda stuff, is that if you don't do everything the way the Quran, Hadith say, (e.g get married, have children etc) and you do it your own way, that's like saying you know better than God and the Prophet about how to be a good Muslim, but tbh I don't know. I think we just can't judge these things because worship and our relationships with Allah are to me, such a personal thing.

[quote=Lilly]

real believers will by default go.
[/quote]
(after they've been punished...so people do try to avoid that so jannah is in the equation)

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]our relationships with Allah are to me, such a personal thing.[/quote]
[quote=Patience]It is a personal thing [/quote] True say

[quote] and IMO it should be bespoke but that's not how Islam dictates. Worship is uniform.[/quote]
:oops: What does that mean?

[quote=Patience]

Still confused?
If you are just ignore me. It's not important[/quote]
I get it now 🙂

Agree except I think
[quote=Patience]So eve though we are all unique, and have unique relationships with God, the way we worship is uniform.
[/quote]

the way we worship perhaps rather should or can be uniform, it isn't necessarily though, as shown by Raabz, in which cases God knows best how He will judge.
That's if getting married, having children, praying salah 5x a day for the sake of Allah is what is meant by worship. If worship is broader, and just means, whatever way possible doing stuff for the sake of Allah, then yes, I guess we are all completely uniform in our worship.

But I wonder then if that would make general Muslims worship-wise uniform with suicide bombers etc? Hmm...

The saying by Rabia Basri (RA) was said in a state of ecstasy.

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]For some reason I thought of this Rabia Basri poem

"O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”

and thought that this maybe shows in some ways, doing moral acts just to avoid going to Hell or to go to Heaven is neither genuinely altruistic nor would it even be that valuable to God?[/quote]

hmm...
Ali Ibn Abi Talib (a.s): Some people worship God to gain His gifts; this is the worship of merchants. Some worship Him to avoid His punishment; this is the worship of slaves. Some worship Him solely to show gratitude towards Him; this is the worship of the free.

everyone has different level of faith. so worship wouldnt be uniform coz we'd get different rewards out of it.

and we do different actions. so how can it be uniform?

and does the Quran tell us to be selfless?

[quote=Lilly]

and does the Quran tell us to be selfless?[/quote]
probably not. You just have to have a pure intention when doing deeds.

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

But I wonder then if that would make general Muslims worship-wise uniform with suicide bombers etc? Hmm...[/quote]
hmm I guess so
Except when they're killing people thinking it's worship...

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]If believers do good deeds for heaven/to avoid hell, then can they really be selfless?[/quote]

Funny q sherlock, I don't really get it......

What don't you get?
When someone does a good deed e.g give to charity, are they doing it because it will help others or because it's something that will get them to heaven...?

Cos it will help others, and perhaps maybe get us to heaven, we will never really know.

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]If believers do good deeds for heaven/to avoid hell, then can they really be selfless?[/quote]

As believers are we told to be selfless?

Main thing is that whatever we do we do it for the pleasure of Allah. Now there are things we are told to do that we may not like but as a believer we do it for the sake of Allah. However there are also many things that we are told are good deeds and that we should do them and they're also a pleasure for us.

We are told to go out and earn for ourselves, we are told to eat & drink etc. i don't think anyone can say that they only do this for the sake of Allah and they don't take any benefit in it for themselves. There are many things we do for the sake Allah that we also enjoy doing and it also benefits us in this dunya.

We aren't told to be selfless so i don't think we should be selfless. Obviously we were created by Allah to serve Allah but we're different from any other creation, we've been created with desires, needs etc. we are not selfless creations.

Doing thing fisabilillah and for yourself aren't contradictory (is that a word)

Anyway Allah knows best. May Allah guide us all. Ameen

Assalamu alaikum 🙂

Wsalaam. yep, true answer 🙂