Claiming state benefits in Britain is HARAM.

knightsbridge_… —

I say that the above statement is true because the Quran has stated that we must pay taxes (this is a Jizya because we are a minority living in a majority country). On the other hand, claiming benefits is not stated as being permissible and is not part of the Sharia, likely because it forms part of a secular system which not based on collection/distribution of Zakat. The taxes which we pay (those who do) are used for the schools which our children attend and the hospitals which we use when we are ill. On the other hand, money for the payment of state benefits should be seen as having Riba (usuary) origins because financial services (Banks & insurance co's) generate more tax revenue for the UK government than any other industry in Britain. Therefore, when we are taking money we have not worked for which is exactly the same as taking interest.

We are not "automatically entitled" to any money from this government because in order to receive benefits, we have to apply (requestfully beg) for these hand-outs from non-Muslim administrators. To which the Quran states:'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The man who always begs will meet Allah with no flesh left on his face.'

Some people will not like what I have said because I am questioning their entitlement Nafs and the very reason they live in this country (do they live here to give dawah or to leach from the state?). The Molvi sahibs and community leaders are shy to bring this topic up because in many cases they depend on hand-outs from the government. Shouldn't these leaders be paid Zakat or financial support from our own Muslim community, instead of having to claim money which they have not paid, or worked for, which has interest origins?

I need your thoughts on these issues, if there is hardly any response then I will assume that my theory is correct and that all Muslim people who claim benefits (like income support or Job Seekers) are taking haram money.

Forum

lollywood — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 20:52

[quote=You]so your generalisation is already found to be wrong.[/quote]

Fair enough, let me put it this way there is a " minority" of people that do this kind of thing and make the rest of us look bad

knightsbridge_… — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 21:09

National Statistics show that the minority are actually a majority. An analysis of British Muslims was caried out by the Muslim Council of Britain, it gave a very weak and in need of support image of British Muslims, especially in terms of education, employment, housing and health. Of Course we all have enough to eat and drink and somewhere to live, even if you choose not to claim benefits. For a look at their report and long analysis see:
-http://www.mcb.org.uk/library/studies.php

laila — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 21:09

So Knightsbridge is saying only Muslims are not allowed benefits in uk - what's that all about then? Aren't we all citizens. I don't like this topic anymore because if you are destitute no matter who you are in uk you have the right to claim benefits. If KB thinks it's wrong then fair enough but in actual fact it is not wrong if your reasons are right

laila — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 21:18

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]National Statistics show that the minority are actually a majority. An analysis of British Muslims was caried out by the Muslim Council of Britain, it gave a very weak and in need of support image of British Muslims, especially in terms of education, employment, housing and health. Of Course we all have enough to eat and drink and somewhere to live, even if you choose not to claim benefits. For a look at their report and long analysis see:
-http://www.mcb.org.uk/library/studies.php[/quote]
What are you talking about!!??

You — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 21:22

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]...it gave a very weak and in need of support image of British Muslims, especially in terms of education, employment, housing and health...[/quote]

and you are encouraging them to avoid benefits that may help them out of the hole... making their lack of opportunity more permanent.

Bravo.

TPOS — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 22:33

I thought the main reason why people weren't facing absolute poverty over here, was CUZ of the benefits. If they weren't there, how are people who aren't making enough/any money, live?! How would you pay for bills, food, etc??

:S

I'm genuinely asking.

lollywood — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 22:53

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]I thought the main reason why people weren't facing absolute poverty over here, was CUZ of the benefits. If they weren't there, how are people who aren't making enough/any money, live?! How would you pay for bills, food, etc??

:S

I'm genuinely asking.[/quote]

If push comes down to shove then people might be forced to beg

You — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 22:56

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]We all have enough to eat and drink and somewhere to live (whether it is a house which we own, rent or share with relatives in times of need), if you choose not to claim benefits.[/quote]

you have enough.

that does not mean the same applies to everyone else.

islam does not cater exclusively for the rich.

TPOS — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 22:58

[quote=lollywood][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]I thought the main reason why people weren't facing absolute poverty over here, was CUZ of the benefits. If they weren't there, how are people who aren't making enough/any money, live?! How would you pay for bills, food, etc??

:S

I'm genuinely asking.[/quote]

If push comes down to shove then people might be forced to beg[/quote]
Now begging is defo haram

lollywood — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 23:08

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
Now begging is defo haram[/quote]

But if a person has no money left and the government is not giving out benefits what other options does one have apart from begging?

Ya'qub — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 - 23:55

[quote=lollywood][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
Now begging is defo haram[/quote]

But if a person has no money left and the government is not giving out benefits what other options does one have apart from begging?[/quote]

Praying to God?
Getting a job?
moving to a different place?

You — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 - 00:20

you also have the more urgent need to actually eat too, so there can be situations where a person will physically need to beg, but in the UK they will be few and far between.

lollywood — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 - 18:00

[quote=Ya'qub]
Praying to God?
Getting a job?
moving to a different place?
[/quote]

True but what if I need food and water now
God will take time to answer my prayers, getting a job and moving is also not that easy
with begging you get instant results in other words money in hand there and then

knightsbridge_… — Sat, 1 Oct 2011 - 21:10

[quote=lollywood]

True but what if I need food and water now
God will take time to answer my prayers, getting a job and moving is also not that easy
with begging you get instant results in other words money in hand there and then[/quote]

You have highlighted the need for a community-based solution. If any Muslim person in this country feels the need to beg then they should first and foremost seek help from within Muslim community institutions (which should be created and funded by the Zamindar and associated Maliks), before begging for public 'street' money.

lollywood — Sat, 1 Oct 2011 - 21:40

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]
You have highlighted the need for a community-based solution.
[/quote]
Your asking for trouble there, we as a “community" can't even celebrate Eid on the same day as each other how are we going to manage something like this?

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]
If any Muslim person in this country feels the need to beg then they should first and foremost seek help from within Muslim community institutions (which should be created and funded by the Zamindar and associated Maliks), before begging for public 'street' money.[/quote]
[/quote]

Zamindar and wadere don't even give full pay to the people who work under them what makes you think that they would donate to a fund we are talking about?

knightsbridge_… — Sun, 2 Oct 2011 - 19:31

Under the Sharia, the Zamindar, Maliks and other rich or wealthy Muslims have a responsibility to look after those who are in need of financial help. If you're saying that they currently don't (in your experience) then this is simply a cultural (Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi) issue and not a religious issue. Jewish people have similar charity systems for their own community in Britain, so why can't Britsh Muslims establish such a fund/funds for our various groups within our community?

lollywood — Sun, 2 Oct 2011 - 20:08

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]Under the Sharia, the Zamindar, Maliks and other rich or wealthy Muslims have a responsibility to look after those who are in need of financial help. If you're saying that they currently don't (in your experience) then this is simply a cultural

(Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi) issue and not a religious issue.
[/quote]

I agree with you but who's going to take the first step?

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]
Jewish people have similar charity systems for their own community in Britain, so why can't Britsh Muslims establish such a fund/funds for our various groups within our community?[/quote]
[/quote]

The Muslims should start a similar charity but here's were I see a fighting point- will the head of this charity be a Sunni, Shia, or Wahabi?

You — Sun, 2 Oct 2011 - 20:12

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]Under the Sharia, the Zamindar, Maliks and other rich or wealthy Muslims have a responsibility to look after those who are in need of financial help. If you're saying that they currently don't (in your experience) then this is simply a cultural (Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi) issue and not a religious issue. Jewish people have similar charity systems for their own community in Britain, so why can't Britsh Muslims establish such a fund/funds for our various groups within our community?[/quote]

So what you are saying is that under shariah it is OK to give needy people benefits?

Because tht is exactly what that post means if you ignore the terminology.

Besides, even there you are wrong, as the responsibility via zakah can only be used for specific things (and even some poor, like those who are the offspring of the prophet (saw)) cannot accept it.

Charity is separate from this tax.

I know - how about all these people who want to establish the funds pool their resources into a government pot which can then help those that are needy?

We can call this pooling of resources "tax", a novel new word, and giving this money to those that need it also needs to ba called something. Let us invent a word. "Be... something". "Benefats"? No, Benefits sounds better.

How about that - we get from your ideas to benefits within one post length.

lollywood — Sun, 2 Oct 2011 - 20:27

[quote=You] "Benefats "
[/quote]

You can't use that three letter f word because it might offend large people receiving benefits and they might go to the EU high court and ask for it to be banned so it would have to be something like Beneobese

TPOS — Sun, 2 Oct 2011 - 22:14

[quote=You]Sometimes you try too hard.

Let it flow and if mixed with real insightful posts where the humour is only a small part of it all, it will work much better.[/quote]
Lol!

knightsbridge_… — Fri, 7 Oct 2011 - 22:26

No, the Molvis whom I queried simply did not want to call something which they enjoyed getting as being haram. These specific Molvi have clearly not cultivated any land or reared any cattle in Britain before putting their hands out in search of what they really came to this country for.

lollywood — Fri, 7 Oct 2011 - 22:33

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]No, the Molvis whom I queried simply did not want to call something which they enjoyed getting as being haram[/quote]

funny and true
if they were not receiving it they would be the first ones to jump up and down about it being haram with there Halwa belly

You — Fri, 7 Oct 2011 - 22:42

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]No, the Molvis whom I queried simply did not want to call something which they enjoyed getting as being haram. These specific Molvi have clearly not cultivated any land or reared any cattle in Britain before putting their hands out in search of what they really came to this country for.[/quote]

But you found no one who agrees with you.

Maybe it is because you are insane?

knightsbridge_… — Fri, 7 Oct 2011 - 22:45

[quote=You][quote=knightsbridge_brother]No, the Molvis whom I queried simply did not want to call something which they enjoyed getting as being haram. These specific Molvi have clearly not cultivated any land or reared any cattle in Britain before putting their hands out in search of what they really came to this country for.[/quote]

But you found no one who agrees with you.

Maybe it is because you are insane?[/quote]

I know that You are insane!