Claiming state benefits in Britain is HARAM.

knightsbridge_… —

I say that the above statement is true because the Quran has stated that we must pay taxes (this is a Jizya because we are a minority living in a majority country). On the other hand, claiming benefits is not stated as being permissible and is not part of the Sharia, likely because it forms part of a secular system which not based on collection/distribution of Zakat. The taxes which we pay (those who do) are used for the schools which our children attend and the hospitals which we use when we are ill. On the other hand, money for the payment of state benefits should be seen as having Riba (usuary) origins because financial services (Banks & insurance co's) generate more tax revenue for the UK government than any other industry in Britain. Therefore, when we are taking money we have not worked for which is exactly the same as taking interest.

We are not "automatically entitled" to any money from this government because in order to receive benefits, we have to apply (requestfully beg) for these hand-outs from non-Muslim administrators. To which the Quran states:'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The man who always begs will meet Allah with no flesh left on his face.'

Some people will not like what I have said because I am questioning their entitlement Nafs and the very reason they live in this country (do they live here to give dawah or to leach from the state?). The Molvi sahibs and community leaders are shy to bring this topic up because in many cases they depend on hand-outs from the government. Shouldn't these leaders be paid Zakat or financial support from our own Muslim community, instead of having to claim money which they have not paid, or worked for, which has interest origins?

I need your thoughts on these issues, if there is hardly any response then I will assume that my theory is correct and that all Muslim people who claim benefits (like income support or Job Seekers) are taking haram money.

Forum

lollywood — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 20:25

[quote=You]
What about selling cocain on the street?

It is a high margin product and you can make loads of money, so where is the harm? its just good business skills.

Or you can ask "is this product harming the community?" and if the answer is yes, avoid it.[/quote]

As long as Muslims are not buying it because its haram for them and not others, if others want to buy it and they know the risks that go with it why should the seller get the blame for selling it?

You — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 20:26

why should it only be about Muslims and not about the wider community?

They are humans too.

besides, there willalways be seepage where what happens in other communities will also happen on Muslim ones too, maybe to different extents, but it will still be there.

Why do you want to be someone who spreads suffering in others, simply for a profit?

lollywood — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 20:36

[quote=You]why should it only be about Muslims and not about the wider community?

They are humans too.
[/quote]

Sure, but they are allowed to when Muslims are not

[quote=You]
besides, there will always be seepage where what happens in other communities will also happen on Muslim ones too, maybe to different extents, but it will still be there.
[/quote]

That's because monkey see monkey do

[quote=You]
Why do you want to be someone who spreads suffering in others, simply for a profit?[/quote]
[/quote]

Business is Business, in other words it's a cut throat world know one cares about anything or anyone only bringing home profit I’m sure you know what I mean

You — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 20:52

[quote=lollywood]Sure, but they are allowed to when Muslims are not
[/quote]

Prohibition is generally based on if it is a good thing or not.

and if it is a bad thing, encouraging others in it even if you abstain is not a good thing.

Do you actually understand what you write? because it seems you are too busy on replying and not really thinking things through.

Ya'qub — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 20:52

[quote=lollywood]

Business is Business, in other words it's a cut throat world know one cares about anything or anyone only bringing home profit I’m sure you know what I mean[/quote]

Worship of money is completely haraam and i think something like not caring about where money comes from (just caring about the money itself) is pretty similar to that.

If, as Muslims, we believe that Allah (swt) is the Provider for us, then we would care mire about trying to earn good, halaal money, & be grateful for all He gives us.
This is why we should say 'Allah is Sufficient' because it will remind ourselves to be patient & not give into temptations for a quick, easy buck.

The Prophet ﷺ said that he didn't fear poverty for his ummah, rather he feared wealth, because it can lead us to be ungrateful to Allah (swt) or think we our masters of our own destiny/sustenance.

lollywood — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 21:03

[quote=You]
Prohibition is generally based on if it is a good thing or not.
and if it is a bad thing, encouraging others in it even if you abstain is not a good thing.
[/quote]

Ok its not a good thing to encouraging others into some thing bad but Iwould not force them to buy it they would ask me or come to me I would not go to them as they would be the ones needing it

[quote=You]
Do you actually understand what you write? because it seems you are too busy on replying and not really thinking things through. (I am suggesting that if you have intelligence, you are hiding it quite well.)[/quote]

Yes I do

intelligence ....error file not found!

lollywood — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 21:12

[quote=Ya'qub]
Worship of money is completely haraam and i think something like not caring about where money comes from (just caring about the money itself) is pretty similar to that.
[/quote]

Its how the world is today

[quote=Ya'qub]
If, as Muslims, we believe that Allah (swt) is the Provider for us, then we would care mire about trying to earn good, halaal money, & be grateful for all He gives us
[/quote]

If Allah is the Provider then why do some people go down to the benefits office and beg

[quote=Ya'qub]
This is why we should say 'Allah is Sufficient' because it will remind ourselves to be patient & not give into temptations for a quick, easy buck.
[/quote]

How about if I go down the shop buy something and I’m short of say 10p the shop keeper says sorry mate your short of 10p, now does Allah throw down 10p?

[quote=Ya'qub]
The Prophet ﷺ said that he didn't fear poverty for his ummah, rather he feared wealth, because it can lead us to be ungrateful to Allah (swt) or think we our masters of our own destiny/sustenance.[/quote]

That's true

You — Thu, 8 Sep 2011 - 00:30

[quote=lollywood]Its how the world is today[/quote]

Lets talk about you not the proverbial "world".

your views are your views, not the "world's" and you cant hide behind the scapegoat of imagined wrongs of other people and the world in general.

RI_RS — Thu, 8 Sep 2011 - 17:34

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]well claiming benefits aint haram, have you not figured this out yet?!
And there's so many jobs out there. Plus, I know it was for arguments sake but saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.[/quote]

Wth, tell that to the almost 3million people out there looking for jobs that barely exist.
And they're not just 'lazy' people, how can you fail to be aware of the shocking unemployment rates of these times?

TPOS — Thu, 8 Sep 2011 - 20:52

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]well claiming benefits aint haram, have you not figured this out yet?!
And there's so many jobs out there. Plus, I know it was for arguments sake but saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.[/quote]

Wth, tell that to the almost 3million people out there looking for jobs that barely exist.
And they're not just 'lazy' people, how can you fail to be aware of the shocking unemployment rates of these times?[/quote]
Before I said there are other jobs, I said benefits are not haram. sigh.

RI_RS — Thu, 8 Sep 2011 - 21:49

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]well claiming benefits aint haram, have you not figured this out yet?!
And there's so many jobs out there. Plus, I know it was for arguments sake but saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.[/quote]

Wth, tell that to the almost 3million people out there looking for jobs that barely exist.
And they're not just 'lazy' people, how can you fail to be aware of the shocking unemployment rates of these times?[/quote]
Before I said there are other jobs, I said benefits are not haram. sigh.[/quote]

So? Whether benefits are halaal or not has nothing to do with making a statement about an abundance of available jobs.

knightsbridge_… — Thu, 8 Sep 2011 - 23:16

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=lollywood]

You've proved my point by saying what you have above about not many people going there [/quote] what?? I have NOT proven your point. I've proven the fact people can live comfortably and halaly despite such 'conditions'
[/quote]

That is not correctly written. Why not instead refer to living in a halal manner, as opposed to using a word which does not exist in English or Arabic.

Ya'qub — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 00:45

[quote=knightsbridge_brother][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=lollywood]

You've proved my point by saying what you have above about not many people going there [/quote] what?? I have NOT proven your point. I've proven the fact people can live comfortably and halaly despite such 'conditions'
[/quote]

That is not correctly written. Why not instead refer to living in a halal manner, as opposed to using a word which does not exist in English or Arabic.[/quote]

adding '-ly' 2 the end of a word makes a adjective into an adverb in English, 'halal' is a loan word from arabic, but that doesnt mean we cant anglicise it; the meaning was clear.
In the same way I'm sure you wouldn't object to someone talking about 'hadiths' even though the plural in Arabic is 'ahadith'

TPOS — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 18:33

[quote=Rawrrs_isarollingstone]

So? Whether benefits are halaal or not has nothing to do with making a statement about an abundance of available jobs.[/quote]
Sorry, you're right it doesn't. I don't know why I bothered replying then.

What I meant was, the person could try finding other jobs instead of just giving up - selling alcohol is not the only thing that brings income. If the person does have business skills they could open up a clothes shop, a shoe shop, a phone shop etc etc. They could try being a taxi driver, a delivery person, admin, they could TRY to find something else.

Yes, the statistics show many people aren't getting jobs, but you have to at least try. And I may be being very naive but I think many factors affect employability e.g background, qualifications, location and the type of job people are going for. There may be certain jobs for which there is a need for more applicants but they're just not getting them.

Or like I said earlier, if the shop is only doing well cuz of the alcohol it may need to change location. Move to somewhere where there is a larger Muslim community, and make sure the person is serving the needs of the community.

Me and my friends were talking today about how a proper unisex hairdressers would be good for our area and one of my friend said her sister was thinking about opening one. This would be a great idea because of the large Muslim community and the fact there aren't really any close by, so, many people would use it.

Spot a gap and take the opportunity 😉

lollywood — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 18:29

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]

Or like I said earlier, if the shop is only doing well cuz of the alcohol it may need to change location. Move to somewhere where there is a larger Muslim community, and make sure the person is serving the needs of the community.
[/quote]

If only it was as easy as that
The area the person owns that shop in might have a house there to safe travailing, other family members may live nearby, if he was to move out of that area he might find it hard to get a new house which is suitable for him he might not be able to see his extended family members as much as he wants and if he was to drive there and see them from the new location that would waste petrol money so he may not be better off after all

knightsbridge_… — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 20:59

[quote=Ya'qub][quote=knightsbridge_brother][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=lollywood]

You've proved my point by saying what you have above about not many people going there [/quote] what?? I have NOT proven your point. I've proven the fact people can live comfortably and halaly despite such 'conditions'
[/quote]

That is not correctly written. Why not instead refer to living in a halal manner, as opposed to using a word which does not exist in English or Arabic.[/quote]

adding '-ly' 2 the end of a word makes a adjective into an adverb in English, 'halal' is a loan word from arabic, but that doesnt mean we cant anglicise it; the meaning was clear.
In the same way I'm sure you wouldn't object to someone talking about 'hadiths' even though the plural in Arabic is 'ahadith'[/quote]

Applying '-ly' to the end of a word is the practise of using a suffix. An adjective is simply a word which describes a noun. Adverbs describe how?, in what way?, when?, where?, to what extent?. In any case, the original "halaly" poster has shown a weak knowledge of grammar, in painting (metaphorically speaking) such a use of language in the above cited post. As far as I am aware, there is at present no consensus as to the correct English plural of 'hadith', which is why Muslim people conspicuosly apply a variety of terms to denote sayings ascribed to our prophet.

If people want to have a debate in English, then the correct spelling and grammar should be used, or at the very least reasonable attempts should be made for its use. This is also an essential language skill if you want to be successful in giving dawah to non-Muslims, isn't it?

You — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 20:25

I think there is a hadith or something along the lines that if you look into matters too deeply you will lose yourself.

I think this applies here with all the mental gymnastics required to get to the various suppositions.

You — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 20:26

I think there is a hadith or something along the lines that if you look into matters too deeply you will lose yourself.

I think this applies here with all the mental gymnastics required to get to the various suppositions.

Islam is both simple and logical, neither of which are supported by the original assertion.

and arguing about wether to "ly" or not to is ... a waste of time.

knightsbridge_… — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 20:52

Every single person who has tracked this topic of discussion has used an advanced level of intelect and every single user who has contributed to this topic of discussion (regardless of their school of thought) has displayed advanced epistemological skills. I would therefore urge you all to find out more about the labyrinth of Islamic Philosophy.

TPOS — Fri, 9 Sep 2011 - 21:02

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]Every single person who has tracked this topic of discussion has used an advanced level of intelect and every single user who has contributed to this topic of discussion (regardless of their school of thought) has displayed advanced epistemological skills. I would therefore urge you all to find out more about the labyrinth of Islamic Philosophy.[/quote]
Are you a robot?

Thanks for the compliment though. And please explain the bold - what are they? Thanks.

Foysol89 — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 - 15:18

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE][quote=knightsbridge_brother]Every single person who has tracked this topic of discussion has used an advanced level of intelect and every single user who has contributed to this topic of discussion (regardless of their school of thought) has displayed advanced epistemological skills. I would therefore urge you all to find out more about the labyrinth of Islamic Philosophy.[/quote]
Are you a robot?

Thanks for the compliment though. And please explain the bold - what are they? Thanks.[/quote]

😂 my thoughts exactly

Please don't carry on this convo about justifying selling haram products or even serving it. You're just being ridiculous, use some common sense. If it's haram to do, eat or whatever, how can using this haram become halal? Think!!!

knightsbridge_… — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 - 16:16

Epistemology is a branch of Philosophy concerned with analysing human knowledge and the dichotomies of Truth vis-à-vis Beliefs. A labyrinth is a word which I used to describe the deep and fascinating nature of Islamic Philosophy.

knightsbridge_… — Sat, 10 Sep 2011 - 19:10

[quote=You]People who use big words generally use them to hide the flaws in their arguments (or are students).

Otherwise they would ue everyday words like veryone else.[/quote]

Is this the truth or is it part of your own belief (philosophical question)? I am an educated person and i'm accustomed to writing long essays as part of my current studies. My use of vocabulary would only appear "big" to a person who is simply very small.