Claiming state benefits in Britain is HARAM.

knightsbridge_… —

I say that the above statement is true because the Quran has stated that we must pay taxes (this is a Jizya because we are a minority living in a majority country). On the other hand, claiming benefits is not stated as being permissible and is not part of the Sharia, likely because it forms part of a secular system which not based on collection/distribution of Zakat. The taxes which we pay (those who do) are used for the schools which our children attend and the hospitals which we use when we are ill. On the other hand, money for the payment of state benefits should be seen as having Riba (usuary) origins because financial services (Banks & insurance co's) generate more tax revenue for the UK government than any other industry in Britain. Therefore, when we are taking money we have not worked for which is exactly the same as taking interest.

We are not "automatically entitled" to any money from this government because in order to receive benefits, we have to apply (requestfully beg) for these hand-outs from non-Muslim administrators. To which the Quran states:'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The man who always begs will meet Allah with no flesh left on his face.'

Some people will not like what I have said because I am questioning their entitlement Nafs and the very reason they live in this country (do they live here to give dawah or to leach from the state?). The Molvi sahibs and community leaders are shy to bring this topic up because in many cases they depend on hand-outs from the government. Shouldn't these leaders be paid Zakat or financial support from our own Muslim community, instead of having to claim money which they have not paid, or worked for, which has interest origins?

I need your thoughts on these issues, if there is hardly any response then I will assume that my theory is correct and that all Muslim people who claim benefits (like income support or Job Seekers) are taking haram money.

Forum

TPOS — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 19:38

[quote=lollywood][quote=You]the earnings based on alcohol are haraam and their only alternative is not benefits, they could sell other things or do another job.[/quote]

Your right

But just for argument sake lets say the other things they sell in the shop dont have much profit margin when Alcohol does and if they don't get the profit from Alcohol they could ran out of business[/quote]
I highlighted something you seemed to have missed

lollywood — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 20:33

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]Then you don't work. Haram income will be of no benefit to you anyway[/quote]

Lets say I don't work as I can't find a suitable job
I can't claim benefits because they are Haram then how do I eat?

knightsbridge_… — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 20:38

Shops as businesses are a form of wealth, they count towards an individuals own net worth. An owner could at any point sell their shop and begin a new small enterprise with the proceeds, or work at a senior level for an established company which should be feasible if they have already shown an aptitude in management.

TPOS — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 20:40

well claiming benefits aint haram, have you not figured this out yet?!
And there's so many jobs out there. Plus, I know it was for arguments sake but saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.

knightsbridge_… — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 20:50

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]well claiming benefits aint haram, have you not figured this out yet?!
And there's so many jobs out there. Plus, I know it was for arguments sake but saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.[/quote]

It's open for debate.

There isn't really much chance that a jobless person who already owns a house and car(s), with an extended network of kin and a good sense of community could starve to death in this country. So it really isn't a life or death situation here, especially if a person saved something aside during times of prosperity, not forgetting greater availability of halal loans.

lollywood — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 21:26

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.[/quote]

Why?

Here's a silly rough example - it could be wrong

lets say someone buys a bag of crisps at 40p or something profit 10 to 15p
someone buys a can of beer at say 2.50p or something profit £1

That does not look stupid to me

lollywood — Mon, 5 Sep 2011 - 21:25

[quote=knightsbridge_brother]
It's open for debate.

There isn't really much chance that a jobless person who already owns a house and car(s), with an extended network of kin and a good sense of community could starve to death in this country. So it really isn't a life or death situation here, especially if a person saved something aside during times of prosperity, not forgetting greater availability of halal loans.[/quote]

They might not own a house especially in this day and age
The extended network of kin turn away during the time of need

Its difficult to save if you have bills to pay 3 or 4 kids to feed and all there demands to meet on top

Foysol89 — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 00:13

@knightsbridgebrother I Would just like to say i'm happy to see that you are asking these questions and this topic is definitely up for debate. I think we all need to remain consience of how we live these days and our income for one needs to be questioned as to whether it's halal or not. It's easy to live in comfort and say i have no choice but to do this or do that.

I just wanted to say i appreciate that you are trying to make us more aware, after all we will be held accountable for our income. It's become common within muslims to take the easy road out sometimes. Some even take mortgages knowing full well about the punishment of dealing with rib'aa, excusing themeselves by saying they have no choice.

There are alot of muslims though who are aware doing things the halal way and finding an alternative to certain things such as going to uni without paying interest etc.

Saying all this i still don't agree with your theory. I also believe this debate is more for the scholars rather than us regular folk. I do understand that alot of scholars won't give a fatwah against this because they'll lose their benefits. I'm not accusing anyone though and i strongly belive there are scholars out there that fear Allah and will distiniguish halal from haram.

I apologize if my initial comment was harsh or offensive. May Allah guide us all jazakallah khair for your concern. Ameen.

Assalamu alaikum 😃

Ya'qub — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 00:31

[quote=You]the earnings based on alcohol are haraam and their only alternative is not benefits, they could sell other things or do another job.[/quote]

Kebab shops make about 90% of there money from post-pub drunk people.

Is this money haraam also?

Ya'qub — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 00:42

[quote=You]No, haraam money doesnt work down the chain and as long as what they sell is halaal, that is what matters.[/quote]

ok. but when does the money stop being haraam?

In English law it is illegal to knowingly accept stolen goods.

Is there a parallel in Shariah to this?

You — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 01:00

A shopkeeper is making a halaal living even if the people buying stuff from him didn't earn their money in a halaal way.

If it was earned in a criminal way however and the shop only survives due to thsi criminal enterprise, then the earnings may be questionable.

(PS I am only using my logic with all this, not checking in some book.)

lollywood — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 16:14

[quote=You]A shopkeeper is making a halaal living even if the people buying stuff from him didn't earn their money in a halaal way.
[/quote]

Ho does that work?

knightsbridge_… — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 16:50

[quote=Foysol89]@knightsbridgebrother I Would just like to say i'm happy to see that you are asking these questions and this topic is definitely up for debate. I think we all need to remain consience of how we live these days and our income for one needs to be questioned as to whether it's halal or not. It's easy to live in comfort and say i have no choice but to do this or do that.

I just wanted to say i appreciate that you are trying to make us more aware, after all we will be held accountable for our income. It's become common within muslims to take the easy road out sometimes. Some even take mortgages knowing full well about the punishment of dealing with rib'aa, excusing themeselves by saying they have no choice.

There are alot of muslims though who are aware doing things the halal way and finding an alternative to certain things such as going to uni without paying interest etc.

Saying all this i still don't agree with your theory. I also believe this debate is more for the scholars rather than us regular folk. I do understand that alot of scholars won't give a fatwah against this because they'll lose their benefits. I'm not accusing anyone though and i strongly belive there are scholars out there that fear Allah and will distiniguish halal from haram.

I apologize if my initial comment was harsh or offensive. May Allah guide us all jazakallah khair for your concern. Ameen.

Assalamu alaikum :D[/quote]

Wa 'alaykumusalaam wurahmatulaah wa barakatu'.

You — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 17:56

[quote=lollywood][quote=You]A shopkeeper is making a halaal living even if the people buying stuff from him didn't earn their money in a halaal way.
[/quote]

Ho does that work?[/quote]

The person that earned the money earned it in a halaal manner. The person who didn't didn't.

If all money that has come into contact with haraam was to forever be haraam, then all money would be haraam as it does not stay with one person or one type of person.

lollywood — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 20:20

[quote=You]

The person that earned the money earned it in a halaal manner. The person who didn't didn't.

If all money that has come into contact with haraam was to forever be haraam, then all money would be haraam as it does not stay with one person or one type of person.[/quote]

But the source of the money was Haram

TPOS — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 22:28

[quote=lollywood][quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]saying they would only make money if they sold alcohol is stupid.[/quote]

Why?

Here's a silly rough example - it could be wrong

lets say someone buys a bag of crisps at 40p or something profit 10 to 15p
someone buys a can of beer at say 2.50p or something profit £1

That does not look stupid to me[/quote]
Are you tryna say selling some alcohol will out-do the profit made by selling everything else?! From milk and bread, to other food and drink, to toiletries etc?!

lollywood — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 22:45

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
Are you tryna say selling some alcohol will out-do the profit made by selling everything else?! From milk and bread, to other food and drink, to toiletries etc?![/quote]

Alcohol is getting expensive day by day, the government keeps adding to its cost in the form of taxes because they don't want young people buying it for obvious reasons

The other everyday items such as Bread, Milk, and Eggs are way cheaper then alcohol

I read that a can of beer is cheaper then a bottle of water- that's just crazy

lollywood — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 22:57

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]Seriously? You're seriously telling me that alcohol will out sell and out profit everything else. Facepalm.[/quote]

I think so
Especially on a Friday and Saturday night

TPOS — Tue, 6 Sep 2011 - 23:36

you think wrong.

If it's a small corner shop, then that *might* be the case but they should just change location then.

I know this family that own a small newspaper shop. They don't sell alcohol and there's hardly any people going in there. Yet they regularly give the largest sum of money towards the building of our new mosque and then obviously are living fine. MashaAllah

Have trust in Allah and live halaly.

Oh and there's this other supermarket which started off as one small shop. They don't sell alcohol either and now like 10years later they have about 4 big branches and they are rich.

Ya'qub — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 02:22

You said the price of alcohol goes up all the time because of government raising taxes, but those increases don't translate into more profits to the shopkeeper, cos the money goes to the government not him/her. Vast majority of cigarette or alcohol price is tax, & shopkeepers use these products to entice customers, but make most of their money from putting everyday things on display so ppl pick them there out of convenience; milk & bread r much more expensive in little shops than supermarkets.

@admin, what about ppl standing outside nightclubs selling water, knowing that most ppl coming out of there thirsty will be because of drugs. even tho water is a good thing, would u say that's a decent way of making a living? I think it's same with kebab shops (depending on the area it's in).

lollywood — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 18:49

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]you think wrong.

If it's a small corner shop, then that *might* be the case but they should just change location then.

I know this family that own a small newspaper shop. They don't sell alcohol and there's hardly any people going in there. Yet they regularly give the largest sum of money towards the building of our new mosque and then obviously are living fine. MashaAllah

Have trust in Allah and live halaly.
[/quote]

You've proved my point by saying what you have above about not many people going there

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
Oh and there's this other supermarket which started off as one small shop. They don't sell alcohol either and now like 10years later they have about 4 big branches and they are rich.[/quote]
[/quote]

That is just good business skills

TPOS — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 19:28

[quote=lollywood]

You've proved my point by saying what you have above about not many people going there [/quote] what?? I have NOT proven your point. I've proven the fact people can live comfortably and halaly despite such 'conditions'

[quote]

That is just good business skills[/quote]
*bangs head on table*

lollywood — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 19:37

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
what?? I have NOT proven your point. I've proven the fact people can live comfortably and halaly despite such 'conditions'
[/quote]
How do you know that the money there giving to the mosque is the money from that Business? they might be doing something else as well as the Business

[quote=lollywood]
That is just good business skills
[/quote]

[quote=ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE]
*bangs head on table*[/quote]

Don't hurt self too much

You — Wed, 7 Sep 2011 - 19:55

[quote=lollywood]
That is just good business skills
[/quote]

What about selling cocain on the street?

It is a high margin product and you can make loads of money, so where is the harm? its just good business skills.

Or you can ask "is this product harming the community?" and if the answer is yes, avoid it.