France and Islam
Gavin Hewitt - BBC, Monday, 4 April 2011
Even while French planes are bombing Gaddafi's forces in Libya France itself is debating Islam and its place in society.
Tomorrow Jean-Francois Cope, a rising star in the governing UMP party, will hold a debate on secularism and Islam. Its purpose will be to explore how to accommodate Islamic customs with France's secular traditions.
The very idea of the debate has sparked argument. Some Muslims say it will stigmatise them. A former diversity adviser to President Sarkozy has not only stood down but is calling for demonstrations against the debate. He says the UMP party is a "plague on Muslims".
Even within the ruling party there is division. Prime Minister Francois Fillon and Foreign Minister Alain Juppe don't like or want this debate.
Various religious groups have issued a statement saying they fear "the debate could add to the confusion in the troubled period we are traversing."
And yet, according to polls, the French are deeply troubled about how some Muslims behave in France. One poll suggests that 40% of people regard Islam as the enemy within.
Some see the debate as pandering to these fears, while others insist it is a discussion that must be had.
The whole subject is fraught with complexity. A 1905 law that separates Church and State is a central tenet of the French Republic. It underpins important French values.
President Sarkozy believes that if halal food, for instance, is served in a secular school canteen then that crucial separation between Church and State is compromised. Others argue that allowing Muslims to pray on the streets encourages religion to seep from the Mosque into the public space. Others say that parents banning girls from joining in mixed swimming sessions introduces religion into a secular activity.
And so the arguments flow.
Jean-Francois Cope suspects that many activities are less connected with religion and more with political Islam. "There are a certain number of extreme behaviours," he said, "led by fundamentalists who are using the religion for political ends and use extremist techniques."
And this touches on wider questions. It is widely accepted that it is fundamental to democratic society that all are equal under the law. All must obey it. That, in itself, guarantees religious freedom.
And yet in France - and elsewhere in Europe - there are those who say that some Muslim communities are arguing that they are a special case. A few influential figures have even argued there may be a case for allowing some form of Sharia law.
Only this weekend, in an interview with the Times, the ethnic Somali writer and former Islamist Ayaan Hirsi Ali said that "a society needs the rule of law. Islam is incompatible with the rule of law because it says only Allah is the law and not human beings."
There will be many Muslims who would challenge those views, but again behind the argument is a fear that separate, segregated communities will emerge, rather than integrated communities.
So to the question: Should all this be debated or not? If the discussions are not had there are others who will embrace it. That is for sure. Marine Le Pen, who leads the National Front, has made it a key plank of her campaign that religion should be kept out of the public space. Her stand on this partly reflects her current robust standing in
national polls.Then next week the French ban on the burka and the niqab comes into effect. There will be a warning initially, followed by a 150-euro (
France hates Islam
Published by malik on 4 April, 2011 - 20:53
multiculturalism has failed? really?
like Sarkozy ever tried it...
and..why did i read "sharia" with a slight english accent...
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Apparently France's civil liberties are better protected than ours...
:roll:
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Which ones? The right to cover the face isn't.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Exactly my point. The right to religious freedom aint!
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
What does it mean to be secular? Does it mean that all forms of religious identity and practice are banned? That's not secularism that's oppression! It's a breach of Article 9 and it doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. So now I can't stop and help someone or stand up for someone who's being harassed or say Salam to my fellow Muslims because it's anti-secular? That's completely ridiculous. Why pretend that we're all the same when clearly we're not? Why not try and embrace the diversity rather than assume negative things? It is really unhelpful and detrimental to integration.
In the UK people are generally more tolerant than that; but we've got a higher detention period for terror suspects.
Has multi-culturalism failed? No it's politicians and journalists who are insistent on alienating minorities who've failed the country! It's time people learnt to question that and held them to account.
For argument's sake say multi-culturalism has failed- what does Ms Merkel suggest we do? Send all the Muslims home? Even the one's who live here, are settled here and are actually good members of the community? That's gotta be one of the most mentally suicidal thing I've heard today!
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
Sounding like a lawyer there, lampy!
And what about the English converts, where would they go...?
Where would the BNP send them?? (A lil off topic but this literally just came to mind)
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Yeah a barrister Inshallah. What about you? Any idea? How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
I'm a goalless, ambitionless, lazy, failure, currently in my first year of A levels...I won't use the smile emoticon here...
What's the difference between lawyer, solicitor and barrister? :S
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
OK firstly, from seeing some of your posts I know for a fact that you're not a goaless and lazy failure! You're definately a smart girl with the potential to move mountains (metaphorically).
Secondly, what A levels are you doing?
A lawyer is normally either a solicitor or a a barrister. Solicitors are like GPs; they initially advise and refer their client to a barrister, who will advise, argue and represent in the higher courts. Barristers are like consultants. Without solicitors barristers won;t have work. Without barristers solicitors will be thrown in the deep end and will have to represent, which isn't a good thing for thsoe who suffer from stage fright. They both need each other; they are the ying and yang.
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
History, govt+pol, sociology + psychology
[/quote]
Ahh! I get it - great comparison
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Like I said you have the potential to be great! Don't talk down at yourself yeah?
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
Thank You
and lol at you pointing out "metaphorically"!
(I know I have the potential - everyone has. It's what they do with the potential that matters )
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
PofS: believeeeee in yourselffff!!! everyone wants to get me into uni; you should hear them :roll: yeah, i did just roll my eyes, crawy stuff calls for crazy actions.. now, lets get this into the career topic please! and thakn you
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
This topic doesn't need to be carried on, I just gave a truthful answer to Lampy's answer. No one needs to tell me to believe in myself, or tell me anything else as my answers show I don't think I'm useless. Both the problem and the solution lie within me.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
argh..too philosophical for me so early in the morning...
but, talking about multicultural society. whatever you may say about Britain, in france, you'd never be allowed, wait, not even allowed, the thought would never cross your mind to make a miniature sikh temple (the name escapes me) for your Resistant Material GCSE.
the mere fact i wear an abayah and hijaab to school reminds me of how cool Britain is.
secularism is such a ARGH concept.
and anyway, secularism may work for christianity, judaism etc..but it will never work on Islam, the main reason why being that Islam isnt a religion as such, its a way of life, it covers all area of a muslim's life. It's like being vegetarian. you dont eat meat coz you're vegetarian, i dont drink alcohol coz im muslim. Its really not complicated.
really Islam needs to be moved from "religions" to "ways of life".
and people need to control their jealousy. Just coz we got the most awesome religion..geez... don't their religion teach not to covet/be jealous of other people?
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
I really dont like ayaan Hirsi Ali
she's a compulsive liar
she first lied about her origins when she first applied for asylum, saying she was from somali and not kenya
then she said her parent forced her to get married
not true
im very suspicious about what her agenda is
But maybe it's time to put that flickering spirit into practice, into real life. Yeah?
It would be anti-secular to think like that!
Well you're not the only one, ma'am!
She came from Kenya to get asylum but she was born in Somalia, as far as I know. Her family say that she wasn't forced into a marriage and that she had an amiable relationship with her husband; this may or may not be true.
But apart from that she is a liar. I've said this before but I have the deepest sympathy for what she's been through (or what she claims to have been through) as a Muslim I have to. She has constantly sereotyped Islam and Muslims and merged pre-Islamic culture and real Islam. She's had this pointed out to her many times but still she continues with that views, which are basically based on propaganda. Her rash comments make community cohesion more difficult and
so long as that continues she cannot be the promoter of peace as she claims to be. Whatever she says has to be taken with a pinch of salt, otherwise you could become too bitter.
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Lanat on France.
France is a Godless kafir country. Now God will curse it because it is oppressing Muslims.
French government forces women to stop wearing what they want to wear. France has banned women from practising their religion. It can't lecture about women's rights to muslims anymore.
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
iNSHALLAH FRANCE WILL FALL TO THE MUSLIMS SOON AND WE WILL TAKE THEIR RACIST WIFES AS WAR BOOTY!
Why do you want a wife that hates you?
I can't see that as being good for blood pressure and yours seems very high already.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
You,
Allah told us in holy Quran that Prophet Noah (peace be upon him)
had a wife that hated him, rejected him, disobeyed him, and denied him.
She was worse than kafir women. Lanat on her.
God curse be upon French kafirs who deprive women of their
basic rights to wear what they like. France hates muslims.
May God make France pay heaviest fine for this persecution of females:
Ayatollah rightly named America as "Great Satan".
www.presstv.ir
"Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest"
What else could we expect from non-Muslims!?! Of course, they'll hate Islam!
http://islamicb.blogspot.com/2011/04/solution-for-our-french-sisters.html
If you hate france so much, or if muslims are being "opressed" so much, why don't they MOVE back to muslim friendly countries? No one is forcing them to stay, infact, everyone will probably be happy to have them leave!
You can take your STUPID logic and that damn QURAN with you when you go. good riddance. All muslims seem to know how to do is TALK and KILL. and Allah this allah that. Like I give a damn.
Kan ni na chao ci bai, xi wang ni meng duo si.
the only good muslim is a DE_D muslim. Nothing good has ever come out from them. NOTHING. Hitler targeted the wrong group, clearly. Fool!
Talk so much and you have a JEW on your dp. Nutcase.
I like French polony, anyone like French polony???
I LOLed at the fact that this Islamophobic blogger has called himself: "Idiots"
It refelcts the ignorance, reflects the ignorance. LOL!
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
I don't think I want to ever go to France - no headscarves allowed in school, burkha ban, yesterday's cartoon thing, apparently generally rude people - sounds like a horrible place tbh.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
cartoon???
and wouah..that anonimous blogger...im scared...
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
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