The main issue seems to be tht HMC will only approve methods of slaughter that have been historically allowed whereas HFA seem to be taking a more philosophical view of things.

The HFA allow the use of machines to do the slaughter, along with stunning the animal beforehand while the HMC do not allow stunning and also want the actual slaughter to be done by an individual.

The argument the HMC use is that the stunning of an animal can result in its death before it has been slaughtered, so they disagree with the method.

I have not read the HFA's response on that, but I guess using the Islamic laws on hunting can be used in their defence - if you hunt a wile animal and it dies before you get to slaughter it properly (or even if it is fethced by another animal such as a dog), it is still considered halaal as long as the slaughter is carried out once the animal has been retrieved.

In short, if you want to be extra safe and extra sure, stick to the HMC. Others may also find the HFA certification to be useful and valid.

EDIT - When in that link it says "HMC could never leave their principles of Slaughter, as it would mean, without exaggeration, them accepting to eat Haram, HFA could" it means the HMC definiotion of haraam. The HFA will obviously consider their halaal certification to be fully valid.

never heard of HFA before...yet i know that HMC is really strict and more expensive ...you have to pay extra just for them to come and inspect the meat and the shop every couple weeks.

HFA = Stunning as permissible?

HFA = Stunning before slaughter is permissible, but not on its own.

some scholars notably in west say it's permissible.

personally im against stunning for many reasons but main one i think unstunned meat is closest to prophetic way. i prefer hmc but they're not the only group monitoring non stunned slaughtering there are others. However hmc do the most frequent checks on butchers and slaughter houses. my husband used to work for them while he was out of work, they randomly check butchers everyday. many have been caught mixing stunned meat with unstunned to make a quick profit. whilst telling ppl yes its unstunned sister buy buy.

where i am now been informed all red meat is unstunned, but chicken comes from different slaughter houses so need to ask butchers before buying. talking of red meat the lamb and beef here is amazing. i have never eaten such tasty lamb before. i think it's because it comes fresh from the local farms. whereas where i was before it was being sourced from a distance. anyway enuff about my love of the meat lol

seems to be a propaganda by HMC (God Forbid) to establish themselves in the market and earn money by issuing certificates. Only God Knows the best.

HFA only says that stunning prior to slaughter (ensuring that the animal is still alive) is permitted. What's wrong in it? If you are confused, keep your confusion to yourselves; don't spread it.

i dont think you should keep your confusions to yourself, we're here to try and get more knowledge..so we've got to get our confusions sorted

at home, we only eat HMC, mainly because of the stunning thing. true it is more expensive but it's really up to you and your beliefs.

counterplotter if you are muslim you shouldn't be making false accusations against hmc. i know for a fact majority of ppl behind hmc work as unpaid volunteers. Those that are paid are paid minimal, it;s not something one can make a career out of, plus volunteers are called out at odd times.

As for the fee for certificate what is it but a few quid from the coffers of butchers who earn a fat sum? For any good service there will be a cost to pay. The certificate does not cost much, when weighed with the cost of lining our stomachs with impure meat. These workers go out everyday randomly, not many other companies offer such a service. Most do it every few months or even annually, so who knows what meat they are serving up.

From what i've seen it's usually the butchers who complain about the whole hmc idea or having to pay the fee who usually end up mixed stunned and unstunned meat, why? Well they get greedy. They want the HMC customers aswell as the others so they will buy the certificate and lie. So who is really after the money here the butchers or the company that is led by volunteers, go figure! So if butchers really have issues with fee, don't pay and continue with your business why get in huff over the fee, if it's such a non issue?

You outlined difference pretty perfectly. Like i said before i would recommend hmc but they're not only org out there doing it unstunned, i know there is a store in brum for example that lets u pick a live chicken and they slaughter it for you while you wait. Husband got it and bag was hot, i refused to hold it lol.

Agreed with Hajjar.

Frankly, when it comes to halaal and haraam, it is GOOD to see people passionate about such things. As mentioned, one of the certifications is "safer" than the other too as what it will ertify as halaal, the other one will too.

Salaam to all,

Very nice to hear from brothers and sisters (strongly supporting HMC). Please don't take me as an anti-HMC. I'm a stronger HMC admirer than you people.

The point I want to clarify is that 'like eating non-halal meat is threatening to one's Eimaan, so is not eating halal meat'. Try to understand this thing. Being a Hafiz (Alhamdulillah) myself, I can give you references from the Qur'an where Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala Prohibits from refraining from halal things.

Have you ever seen HFA- or HMC-monitored slaughtering processes with your own eyes or are you just spreading a heard word? For your kind perusal, I append below a reply from HFA to my query:

"Your yesterday’s email refers.

HFA is always committed to ensure that 3 basic criteria of halal slaughtering are met, that are;

Animal/bird should not die prior to slaughter,

All the flowing blood is drained out, and;

Muslim should do the rendition.

These criteria are met in both manual and mechanical slaughter as chickens are stunned to immobilize only (thus, alive before slaughter) and Muslims are present on slaughtering line for rendition. Slaughterhouses and KFC stores are regularly audited to ensure full compliance.

Ma’assalam

Saqib Mohammed
Audit & Inspection Manager

Halal Food Authority, 109 Fulham Palace Rd, London , W6 8JA , ENGLAND
T: +44 20 8563 1994 | M: +44 7723602772 | F: +44 20 8563 1993
E: info@halalfoodauthority.co.uk | W: www.halalfoodauthority.co.uk

P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

CONFIDENTIALITY: This email is private and confidential and the contents are intended for the recipient(s) only. The views expressed in this message are not necessarily the views of the organization. If you have received this email in error or believe it may have been altered or amended in transmission please advise Halal Food Authority immediately by phone or fax. Virus warning: although this email and any attachments are believed to be free from viruses it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure they are virus free. Halal Food Authority accepts no responsibility for any loss or damage arising in any way from their receipt, opening or use.

Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 4:26 AM
To: info@halalfoodauthority.co.uk
Subject: Assalam-u-alaikum

Few of my friends don't rely on HFA's certified products, as they believe that HFA allows stunned meat to be Halal and not every animal is slaughtered in Islamic way; they say that only the first animal is slaughtered Islamically but the rest is dealt with mechanically. They say that HMC is the only thing reliable. Is that true? They also forbid me to go to halal KFC outlets because they are certified by HFA. Please guide.

JazakAllah khairan.

Wassalam."

well i can vouch for my husbands words, i don't believe he is in the habit of lying, especially about the food we line our stomachs with. He used to work for them and monitor butchers randomly. He knows of ppl who monitor slaughter houses also. But what no one can vouch for is the butchers. Yes they're monitored everyday, but they still have opportunities to mix meat. This does not mean we should be complacent and think oh since there is no 100% confidence in eating halal meat anywhere let's just purchase stunned meat, or better yet haram meat. You ask the questions go with company that you think is following good practice, and place your trust in Allah, nothing else you can do.

As for HFA my husband called them himself also few years back, because i believe there was a place i wanted to eat, but i wanted to know if they stunned. he called them, they said they stun.

so they cannot guarantee under any circumstances their meat is 100% halal since animal can die before the zabah takes place. Besides this stunning is but one condition that goes against traditional teachings, what of the torture it causes the animal, surely that is against sunnah also?

P.S i think it's up to each muslim to decide for themselves which method is closest to sunnah, and more pure for us to consume from. I will not say my fellow muslim is consuming haram, since there are some scholars who seem to permit it, under insane circumstances i.e so long as we know animal wasnt dead before slaughter...how would any consumer know that information it would be confidential right? Anyways i've done the hard thinking on this spent years travelling between towns for meat, i'm sure those muslims who care about the issue will research it also.

Hajjar wrote:

...since animal can die before the zabah takes place...

While better safe than sorry, I would think that the intent matters as like for hunting where the animal died before slaughter and is even fetched by an animal such as a dog where the saliva is considered haraam - but hadith mentions that it is still halaal.

But yes, better to be safe than sorry.

(on the issue of torture, there aer multiple thoughts on this over which causes more pain, which causes less pain etc. While plain slaughter is supposed to cause less of a spike in brain activity, the stunning people have their advocates too.)

If HMC is so perfect why are large companies such as Nandos, KFC, Dominos and many supermarkets not buying from them and choosing HFA instead? Surely established companies like these can't be choosing HFA simply because the certificate is cheaper than that from HMC.

Because HMC is more expensive (more extensive checks, more rigorous methods etc), and thus would cost those companies money and cut into their profits.

Companies are there to make profits and if it cuts into them they will try to find a way around it.

very well said 'wiseone'. It appears that a particular group is deliberately spreading confusion among Muslims in the UK, since it is a very delicate issue. HFA people are also Muslims just like us. I don't think they would unnecessarily declare non-halal method as halal. Moreover, they also consult qualified scholars and do regular checks, especially when it comes to auditing KFC stores.

Of course, stunned meat will be haraam if the animal/bird dies before slaughtering. And according to HFA statement, they ensure that the stunned animal/bird is alive before slaughtering. (Stunning itself is a reversible process, if not resulting in death.) If we have problem in believing in what they say, then why do we blindly believe in what HMC says? Like the Holy Qur'an tells us:

"if he is a liar, his lie will be (a burden)upon him". (Surah Al-Momin/Surah Ghaafir)

HFA is as equally safe and Halal as is HMC. And only Allah Knows the best.

It is not a point of conspiracy but one of differing opinions - some dislike stunning more than others and if you consider stunning to be unnecessary pain upon the animal, well the hadith asks us to not be unkind to animals even when slaughtering...

I can understand why there are different views on the matter.

Hmmm... multi-billion pound companies like Tesco, Asda, Nandos, Dominos, KFC - it would "cut" into their profits? so what you are saying (You) is they might be at a disadvantage, yet independent retailers and meat shops can afford it but multi billion pound companies cannot?
There are over 50 different types of Halal cerifications in the UK alone do people only eat at places where they are HMC certified? How about when you go abroad ie to muslim countries e.g Turky, Morocco, Egypt - is everyone only eating vegetarian because there is no HMC there at the McDonalds? Or do you trust the muslims of that country by word?

As muslims there seems to be a lack of unity, HMC or HFA or any other halal establishment are supervised by muslims and the meat is prayed upon by muslims yet undermimed, as muslims being in this country within close families people are celebrating Eid on different days and then being told because you dont doubt and trust a company - muslim owned and run that you are eating haraam.

I trust the companies and where doubt i will not eat. A company like the ones mentioned above cannot afford a scandal so they of all people would lose out more than a small independent retailer. Therefore they do more checks than anybody.

Learn to trust and support and appreciate that in UK we are fortunate to have Halal food at every oppurtunity, instead we tell them we dont trust them and that they are wrong? Again no trust within our own muslim community - makes us wonder why the Jews have all done wo well within the wider world!!!

I don't think you understand how markets work. Every little helps when making a profit.

A benefit that local shops have is that they are guaranteed that people will buy their goods if they are halaal, and guaranteed to lose those sales if they are not.

But for major supermarkets, food chains they are guaranteed customers either way, so yes they can try to maximise their profit.

and if one way makes them more... how exactly do you think they make their multi billion dollar profits?

Hats off to 'wiseone'. That's exactly what I was trying to say i.e lack of trust. This is just the beginning. Tomorrow, another company will crop up which will somehow find a flaw with HMC methods and declare itself the most authentic one and so on.

I still remember a company who used to make similar claims that they did not allow mechanical slaughter and that only a Muslim is should do the rendition etc etc and successfully won the confidence of SCottish Muslim community. On the day of Eid, BBC team discovered that the animals were being sacrificed at the company's slaughtering house by a man and not with a machine BUT by a non-Muslim. The whole MUslim community was shocked.

Suspicion has no limits. Who (among all of us on this forum) has managed to see either HFA or HMC manoeuvre with our own eyes? Certainly nobody. So, if a Muslim is saying that it's halaal, we should (rather 'must') believe. No need to go into its depths in case of a Muslim. I would prefer to go into further details if HFA was being run by non-Muslims.

BBC was more than interested in this hot but disputed debate and contacted one of the most prestigious Muslim scholars in the UK who ended the interview by simply saying that if a Muslim is selling non-halal meat by calling it halaal then only he will be questioned; the consumers will not be held responsible.

And I see that HMC has established its market mainly in London and midlands (Birmingham). I'm from South Yorkshire and nobody here even knows these things (HFA/HMC). What should we do then? Over here, we solely rely on our local halaal butchers, none of whom has any sort of certificate(s).

There are more important things for us to do than accusing HFA who are already Muslims and trying their best to provide the Muslim community with halaal stuff. Go to their website and see for yourselves as to how many stores have been denounced by HFA because of non-compliance to Islamic methods of slaughtering.

And only Allah Knows the best.

actually i think you should not make excuses. For years in my home town there was no hmc. its not a matter of hmc. its a good thing hmc have highlighted the sunnah method of slaughter and what is closest to prophetic tradition when filling our stomachs.

When you consider all the acts of ibadah a person does will be nullified if they consume impure foods, it isn't a trivial subject, and not one that anyone should shrug off.

So you don't have hmc forget that. The issue is after reading all articles for and against stunning which do you think is closer to islamic principles. If you need help go to hmc website lots of articles there, for you to make up your mind. If then you decide stunned meat is not halal for you, then it an obligation on you to source out unstunned meat.

In my town there was no hmc for years. I only heard about the stunned meat issue when i heard of a hmc conference in leicester, my brothers were going to, so i thght id go. After that day i did not consume the meat my mother cooked, and believe me i got a lot of stick for it, there were arguments in the house.Parents thght i was accusing them of giving me haram meat, which is ludicrous. i chose to opt out and they could not understand why. I cooked vegetable dishes, and coz im bengali fish fish fish. Yes i was craving for meat, but it did not kill me not to eat it. It all boils down to how passionately you believe in something. Thereafter i travelled with my brother once week to get meat from Leicester or Birmingham, even though they're not too far, it is still a big chore, considering most muslims just pop round corner to local butchers.

Over the years hmc was heard of in my town and as the demand grew it came to my town.

I moved half year ago, and in this city there is no hmc following. But ive asked around and all the red meat suppliers give unstunned halal meat. The chicken is a mixed bunch,so if i want unstunned i have to ask ask ask, and it is attainable.

So if you really want stunned meat you need to promote it in your town and insha'Allah HMC or some other company supplying unstunned meat will settle in your town. Until then you can eat veg dishes or fish it is still food. it's just that I and most ppl i know have become so accustomed to consuming meat every day or every other day that it's become a necessity, whereas in many parts of the world it is still deemed a luxury. Personally i think meat is good once or twice a week, the rest veg or fish, i feel lighter like that, don't know about you. This is coming from a girl who used to eat chicken every single day without fail.

Unfortunately last 7 months chicken stinks to me, i can barely stand to cook it let alone eat it, but thats a different issue lol

i respect your Taqwa sister. but your parents weren't wrong.

Counter-Plotter wrote:

Moreover, they also consult qualified scholars and do regular checks, especially when it comes to auditing KFC stores.

counter plotter my parents know nothing about stunned and unstunned meat. back home their meat is cut sunnah style, here in uk i dont think they have a clue how meat is slaughtered. they see halal sign and buy simple.

So how could they be right or wrong they had no real informed opinion. Anyways i never said their meat was haram, i simply said i would be eating veg or fish which is abundant in our home, so i didnt see the problem really.

if you agree with stunning which you seem to thats fine, i dont want to argue over it. i'm simply stating my opinion and i will defend hmc since i have insight into it via husband. and really a lot of heresay has been said about hmc here. if you really want to know about them how about calling them, or go in person to meet a rep. heresay is a sin.

don't get me wrong dear sister, I'm not against HMC and why should I be? My point is that they should stop accusing HFA.

MuslimBro wrote:

Counter-Plotter wrote:

Moreover, they also consult qualified scholars and do regular checks, especially when it comes to auditing KFC stores.

Would you kindly name the scholars.

Sheikh al-Hassan bin Al-Siddiq, president of Belguim's Islamic Coincil of Ulama

"We (the Muslims) do not view 'direct slaughter' (the traditional Islamic method) as being unkind to animals, Nevertheless, Islam does not prohibit pre-stunning when necessary. as long as the animal does not die (from the stunning),"

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada

"As for stunning the animal, it does not make the animal dead, for it is intended only to knock the animal unconscious so that it does not feel pain and it is brought under control. This itself does not render the animal impure and unlawful unless it is dead before slaughter. My own experience with the slaughterhouses is that they do not make use of animals that are already dead before slaughter. Inspectors, who are appointed by the government (in countries such as Canada), do make sure that this is not the case.

As far as the wisdom of stunning is concerned, it is really in conformity with the wisdom established in the Prophetic hadith in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, "Allah has prescribed excellence and compassion in all things, so when you kill, kill well; when you slaughter, slaughter well, and let him sharpen his knife and spare the animal pain."

In conclusion, we are definitely allowed to partake of such meat, especially if we do not find meat provided by Muslims."

Sheikh Muhammad Al-Mukhtar Ash-Shinqiti, Director of the Islamic Center of South Plains, Lubbock, Texas

"As for the claims by some scholars that a lot of these animals die as a result of being stunned before having their jugular vein slit; I conducted research on this subject and found that these claims are baseless. This is so because the reports by the general inspector of the US Government confirmed that a lot of animals do not get affected by the stunning so when they are slaughtered, they still experience pain.

Muslim scholars who forbid the consumption of beef based their argument on the assumption that stunning kills the animal before their jugular vein is slit. This is not true according to the report released by the general inspector."

Salaams

If any of you want to hear it from the "horses mouth" and get your misconceptions cleared and you live near harrow, london then visit the HMC halal awareness event this weekend 30th October 2010 at Harrow Central Mosque, or see the PDF of the last presentation on the facebook event "HMC Halal Awareness Event 2" which I have recently created.

Wasalaam

Yes, hearing it "from the hoses mouth" is letting one competitor complain and slag of another...

There is a comprehensive answer in the latest revival magazine on this
it will be uploaded here soon

see for me the answers obvious

i imagine that stunning the animal renders it immobile

so if the animal is immobile, how then can hfa people say that they know for a fact that animal is still alive

the only possible answer could be that they have one person on duty who carefully checks the pulse of the animal to make sure

but thats highly unlikely considering they cant even be bothered to do the zhaba process by hand - they prefer the machine route because it allows them to slaughter many animals in a short space of time and count that cash flowing in

as far as i am concerned, in my particularly uneducated opinion we should always attempt to keep our Islamic rules as close to those rules from the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) which means the hmc way is correct and the hfa way is incorrect

hfa are clearly putting profit before the correct process -its wrong

erm, Salam btw