Muslim women should be banned from covering their faces, Nigel Farage of the UK Independence Party has said.
Mr Farage, an MEP and UKIP’s former leader, said wearing a veil had become a symbol of cultural divisions in Britain. He denied the call was motivated by prejudice.
...
"It is a symbol of something that is used to oppress women, it is a symbol of an increasingly divided Britain, and the real worry – and it isn't just about what people wear – is we are heading towards a situation where many of our cities are ghettoised and there is even talk of Sharia law becoming part of British culture."
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shows how much he knows. idiot.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
As I said on another forum, I doubt many people in the UK care what others wear. But this issue is a good lightning-rod for those who wish to express their sentiments about some elements of the Muslim community and those parts of Islam that rub so abrasively against Western sensibilities.
Perhaps if this forum were more popular than 'the other' forum there wouldn't be an issue.
I think a good way to challenge perceptions here is to simply get people to see people wearing the veil as human beings.
The BBC Two tv series Muslim Driving School I think helps to do this - showing people behing the veil as real people with real ambitions that are mirrored by other people in the rest of society.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
do you think that was because of the niqaab?
i'm sorry i think its a load of crock about not being able to communicate. it's rubbish the hate filled media has unfortunately managed to put this same propaganda into muslim heads with great success. Where is the difficulty? Sure there may be a few minutes of awkwardness to begin for both parties, but after that what difficulty is there?
Yes you can't see their facial expressions but can you see facial expressions on the radio, yet they seem to host lively debate shows? So long as you can speak to one another and be heard, surely that is communicating. Better yet I am communicating with you right now, my niqab or dress sense is no hindrance is it? If i spoke to you on the phone would it be a problem no. But as soon as you see the dress its a problem?
ive kept quiet about this because it gets me way too emotional and emotion is no good when putting forward an argument. Also no matter what i say non muslims and even muslims will always see the negative side anyway so i think why bother contributing.
But its a sad day indeed when I wake up to hear muslim brothers on the radio saying things like the niqab is a deathtrap, Niqab is not even a part of Islam. Or i can't communicate with women wearing niqab. you can't see their facial expression you can't touch them...? i guess he means shaking hands or putting hand on shoulder or hugging. But wait a minute why does a stranger particularly a male stranger need to touch a woman or man when expressing himself. if words aren't enough please don't say nothing at all.
One non muslim professor called in and asked: why don't you ask these muslim women if they are oppressed. Who is France to decide these women are oppressed, did they even ask these women. Are you on the radio asking these women, no you're here adding to the media onslaught.
True to word any time a muslim niqabi bothered to call in, she was pounced upon. it was her against the world. No matter how she put her case forward the broadcaster and other callers decided she was indeed oppressed not following any religious law. if this is not oppression what is it. Others deciding how she should think about her own religion. Others teaching her her religion, when they don't even bother to invite scholars on the show for a debate worth its salt?
If the government decide to ban the niqab they can for many reasons i can think of but on the basis it is oppression, that would fall flat on its face-its a great big lie. But thing about lies the more they're repeated, and the louder they're screamed the more they become to be accepted as truths by the ignorant sheep.
p.s You i saw part two of that documentary and it was better than part one i liked that girl, the one with the funky hair cut, she's cruising down the streets yawning but she hasnt even passed, and shes more interested in whts going on outside than the road ahead lol. but the grandma renovating is by far still the most lovable person there.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
What radio station was this debate on?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
bbc radio five i think between 9-10 with nikki.it might be on listen again.
Also bbc asian network did one from 1pm, i couldn't listen to it. there is always a muslim topic on that station and it always puts a negative light on muslims Besides i dislike the presenter sonia deol, shes made it quite clear over years she does not like muslims.Nihal is the man of fairness and intelligence for the debate show, if hes not on, dont bother listening to asian network debate.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
oh, I wasn't on planning to listen to it - I do not have the required attention span to listen to audio - I would forget it was on.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
really..you're kidding right?...lol well no bother you only missed something that would probably have angered you a little if not a lot. i gave you a good commentary i rant like a lunatic when i lose it.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
See my post above. I'm non-Muslim, I don't see the negative side here. Nor did the professor you mentioned on the radio show.
Why bother contributing? I tell you, unless Muslims who do not wish to enforce Sharia in the UK step forward and start contributing, your community is just going to get more and more marginalised.
Are there many Muslims who do not wish to enforce Sharia in the UK? I mean, if you are a good Muslim you follow the Koran and Haddith to the letter, no compromise, which means you want Sharia in the UK (and by "want" I mean are happy that you or others in your community are actively seeking it for the UK) - correct? This is what bothers me. I can't actually see how it is possible to be a Muslim and not actively seek Sharia in the UK. But after several months of asking questions of Muslims I have not yet received a straight answer.
what do you mean by seeking sharia? we have sharia courts in some cities to sort out marriage problems etc but what exactly do you mean, i am not having a blonde moment i am actually clueless.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
I think there is a general confusion as to what Shariah is and what it entails.
Shariah is not a set of rules, but a process. Principles. I am quite sure we would want out politicians to be principled, and faith is a huge part of what makes a person.
British common law is already based on Maliki fiqh (a form of shariah law), and was since its inception all those centuries ago.
To me asking someone if they want shariah law is the same as asking someone if they want chocolate and then giving them a bowl of corn flakes. "they're both food!"
British law is already pretty compliant with Shariah law and Muslims, being citizens of the nation of Britishhood have just as much right to want to influence how the laws change as non muslims.
Muslims are currently allowed to wear the veil, so no new laws are needed. Same with prayers - we are allowed to pray. No new laws needed. Same with most other issues.
What people forget is that all it would be is a bunch of people trying to govern using their principles, and the Muslims among those governing should use the Qur'an and sunnah for their guidance.
If I was somehow to somehow made the prime minister of the UK, here are what I would like to change:
Those would however need mass buy in from the population too - in fiqh, ijma comes before qiyas - which if put in terms of governance means that democracy (or its equivalent of the time) comes before autocracy.
EDIT - since those terms are dealing with fiqh, the discussions there are based on Muslim consensus etc, but what it means in the UK is that elected politicians are allowed to have principles - and the Muslim politicians in the body of elected politicians should use the qur'an and Sunnah as a source of guidance to influence their agendas (just like Christians can gain their principles from the bible, other religions from their religious texts). It does not require any supplanting of a foreign system on the local population
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I'm talking about seeking a change of government so that the UK laws and legal system fall into accord with Sharia principles.
Take care Hajjar and good night
Its this confusion that there is a package called "shariah law" that will like, supplant and replace the current legal framework, maybe done by force because the local population will most likely not accept it peacefully.
I think it is a misunderstanding of what shariah law is.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
You, there is a distinct mismatch between your description of your Sharia-compliant UK government above and the type I hear about on other forums and from the Muslims I know. And as always when I ask these questions I get misdirection, like you talking about what you would do. Like I said above, getting straight answers to questions from the Muslims I've conversed with over the last few months is like getting blood out of a stone.
A Sharia-compliant UK government would need to follow guidance in the Koran and Haddith in its entirety, you can't pick 'n mix your scripture's passages to suit your version of earthly paradise. Yeh, we're talking stoning, amputation, etc.
i agree with things that YOU said. But i thght tread softly meant if i want thieves to have hands cut off. adulterers to be stoned to death. all women in hijab included non muslims etc. i dont agree with that sort of thing here. if i want islamic law in its entirety i will have to seek that abroad in a muslim country that is trying to carry it out. i dont know one that id be willing to live in right now, they all seem to have problems. i dont like the thought of living somewhere, where you cannot openly speak up against the government even if they are corrupt. One where there are arms and violence everywhere,Or one where women are not permitted to drive or run businesses which should be female owned anyway i.e lingerie shops what are men doing running them in saundi arabia for example. Why can men drive and not women? They are just small examples of problems.
takecare treadsoftly.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
see, you're seeing it as a black box system when it isn't - what it is is individuals acting according to their own principles - A muslim's principles including qur'an and sunnah.
A non Muslim cannot be held to Islamic law since he does not accept it, does not believe in the Qur'an. It is as simple as that.
(well, it is more complicated than that - there are sins and then there are crimes. Non Muslims cannot be held liable to Islamic code of conduct when it comes to sins, but for crimes, like theft, rape, murder etc, there does need to be a common framework of law that is equal for everyone.)
Yes, Islam does continue on judaic law, but punishments can change with time - It was the third caliph of the Muslims who at times sought for the punishments for crimes to be lessened. The level of punishment depends on the society it is used on (and hudood afaik means limits - meaning that this is the absolute maximum that can be done), and with some ancient societies that had a blood code, the full limits needed to be applied.
Punishment for such crimes even in Islamic countries requires the authorisation of the victim (or in the case of death, the family of the victim) - it is not "state sanctioned", but state permitted, victim sanctioned.
And it cannot happen in the UK without the people wanting it to - not just some, but a vast majority (and even in that case, it may a bad fit.)
Things are not that simple, no black box tied in some fancy ribbon that will replace everything before it.
Why do some Muslims not mention the complications and issues? either because they do not know or they are ignorant of the issues (both of those options are identical).
What would (ideally) happen is people with principles standing up for them, then a two and fro between the differing opinions and a "middle ground" being established - a ground that allows Muslims to act on their religion, like it does now without forcing non Muslims to give up their lifestyles etc. Like a well functioning democracy. (But that is an ideal scenario, a pipe dream even.)
This seems a little rambly - just to add I am happy with the current UK legal system. It allowed me to practice my faith, but I would like it to make the financial institutions more accountable and less "evil". (what else would you call a system when the people give big banks money at low to no cost in order to be given it back by the banks for an arm and a leg, or not even be given it back with the banks using it to prop up big "profits"?)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Just to add a few more things - the above discussion is more on what it would be like if Britain came under Shariah law.
That has an implicit assumption that that is the aim of people or atleast it should be the aim of people - I do not think that is the case.
Islam does not demand that others are forced to obey shariah law (and such a thing would fall foul of the no compulsion in religion order). What it does however ask is for its members to be practising and that means what is required of the land is the permission/allowance of people to practice their religion.
Britain gives that and there is no need to overhaul the system - not from a personal standpoint, nor from an Islamic standpoint.
(This will slightly undermine the point because it is talking about conquest, but when the Persian empire was conquered, the laws and structures of Persia were left in place. The only thing changed was that the taxes paid to the Persian empire now went to the Muslim empire. Otherwise, it was many of the same people who were doing the same jobs the same way they had done them before conquest.)
Beyond this, when Muslims do get involved in politics, it is their duty to be aware of the Qur'an and Sunnah and not to take stances that are counter to that. Beyond that, there is no overall agenda, no need to overhaul or replace the system with anything else.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Link
Well this will never happen!
Is it, that the French government doesn't understand Islam or Muslims?
Or is it they understand us well?
How will this help win hearts and minds? This will just further extremism.
It is nothing but maliciousness, entrenched is an ethos of modern day covert apartheid. Twisting the truth never came so easy, when using the subject to propagate an agenda, which is your own.
according to some report there are only 250 women in the whole of france who cover their faces with a veil.
This is not an important issue over there, but since the economy is in the dumps and Sarkozy's popularity has fallen massively, he is trying to find mass issues where many people agree and jumping on band waggons in order to improve his popularity and hope no one questions the economy and its plight.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Well..Let's be honest. The Face - Veil has got nothing to do with Islam. The veil predates Islam and was used by Men and Women to cover their face during a sand storm in the desert. It is a Arab Tradition, just like how Arab Men wear the 'white burkas'. I am a Muslim. And personally, I have no problem with this Ban, But what this does actually show is the growing intolerance of Islam/Muslims.
You can't deny that it is a security/health and safety. We need to get back to Islam and not culture. We should drop tradition. And I think this is one step in doing that.
r@I
I will not argue with your views on the islamic nature of the veil, but pick on other things:
As a human you should have a problem with it - even if you do not see it as obligatory, necessary or even liked, it is still curtailing another's rights to where what she wants to.
That is the issue - should a woman who chooses to wear a veil be allowed to wear one? Why should her rights be curtailed?
In general I think a government should only step on rights of people when not doing so would negatively impact other people. (that is part of the logic for locking up criminals etc.) Outside this they should not be in the game of micromanaging how people live their lives.
Tradition does not need to be got rid of - only if it contradicts Islam.
If you go to the fareast people in cities wear facemasks to stop some effects of the smog.
I do not see how it is a security or health and safety risk - if you could see her face or not, it does not change if she is a threat or not.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
THE NIQAAB IS VERY MUCH A PART OF ISLAM.
security, healthy and safety? how so?
there is nothing wrong with culture, the prophet
never said leave your culture or that there is no such thing as culture, in the quran Allah mentions the different tribes and nations... if culture doesn't contradict islamic teachings then what is wrong with it?
people from habasha would come to masjid al nabawi every year to celebrate the prophet (saw)'s migration to madinah and they would perform a cultural dance. umar (ra) came to stop them but the prophet
told him to stop and let them be. if culture was so wrong the prophet 
would have stopped them.
It is a security risk, especially when driving. Just how we say in Islam we can not generalise all Muslims, then we must not do the same here. THERE ARE women that are forced to wear the face veil, even though it has nothing to do with Islam. We need to help them. Time and World has changed. Muslim extremism is rife. Wearing a face veil, can be used as a tool for terrorists.
We need to question our so called "leaders" who seem to mix culture and religion together. We need to strip Islam of tradition and actually go back to the Sunnah and Qur'an. The forced enforcement of the face veil on SOME women, is sort of similar to Honor Killings. Even though Islam does not allow that, people will associate that too Islam, because they are committed mainly by so called "Muslims" likewise with Female Genital Mutilation. There are women that are being forced to wear the Veil. The Veil IS an Arab tradition, and we are not in Arabia. We are in a secular democracy, and it is due time we embrace that.
should a woman who chooses to wear a veil be allowed to wear one? Why should her rights be curtailed?
Well.. Unfortunately... Yes. But that is one thing I do not get, WHY are they wearing it for? It is an Arab Tradition. You know why? Because they think their religion expects them too. And I am talking from personal experience here.
r@I
yes, but if a woman is forced to wear a veil against her will (which is wrong), if there is a ban on the veil, which of these two options do you think the person forcing her to veil will choose:
1. love the veil.
2. Stop her going to the places that require 1
?
I think option two would be chosen far more often than number one, making the lives of women who are forced much much worse.
Add to that the women who are not forced who would also choose number two over one for themselves and the banning proposal actually will make the lives of women worse.
As long as they choose so, it is up to them. Maybe they have good reasons, maybe not but either way as long as they are not hurting others or themselves, where is the harm?
(as for it inhibiting driving, we have driving tests to test such things. If they can past the test with the veil on, they can drive...)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Please give me the proof as to how the Face - veil is a part of Islam?
r@I
This as a matter of fact is not then a question of the Face - Veil, again I will say, it is a matter of culture. WHO dictates to her that she can not go places without a face - veil? Herself or the Males in her family?
This is exactly what I am talking about. The Males of the family do not own the females, that is a backward CULTURAL tradition.
Like i said..We need to strip culture from religion.
This is a matter of Culture. A mess that needs to be sorted out by our so called "leaders".
r@I
Why? show us your evidence.
for me - I do not really care too much if the veil is a part of religion or if it is culture. I just want to see how you back the above up.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
oh please. is that the best you've got? have you even wore the niqaab when driving? the niqaab doesn't seal your eyes :roll: you can see perfectly fine with it on. i know many women who wear the niqaab and guess what? NO ACCIDENTS HAVE HAPPENED!
yes there are some women who have been forced but there are also many women who have chosen to wear the niqaab, yes their choice!
what, by taking away their right to dress how they want?
are they asking you for help?
some wear it because they believe it is fardh and others, well they have their reasons.
I just told you why. YOU said:
yes, but if a woman is forced to wear a veil against her will (which is wrong), if there is a ban on the veil, which of these two options do you think the person forcing her to veil will choose:
1. love the veil.
2. Stop her going to the places that require 1
?
I think option two would be chosen far more often than number one, making the lives of women who are forced much much worse.
Add to that the women who are not forced who would also choose number two over one for themselves and the banning proposal actually will make the lives of women worse.
THEN I SAID
This as a matter of fact is not then a question of the Face - Veil, again I will say, it is a matter of culture. WHO dictates to her that she can not go places without a face - veil? Herself or the Males in her family?
This is exactly what I am talking about. The Males of the family do not own the females, that is a backward CULTURAL tradition.
Like i said..We need to strip culture from religion.
This is a matter of Culture. A mess that needs to be sorted out by our so called "leaders".
Which is the point. Who dictates to the women where they can go? The Males. that kind of CULTURE is backward and barbaric! That is how i support it! We need to strip culture and Islam. They have mixed so much that Men can think they have right to do what they want to Women, an example... Honor Killings.
r@I
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