We have tribes and nations for recognition. It is allowed.

However when you go into fascism (one is superior to another), that is when it is wrong.

The definition of nationalism that is banned is (adapted from Hadith): supporting your people when they are wrong.

So if you support pakistan, knowing the act you are sdupporting is wrong, it is banned.

Same applies if you support a muslim knowing his act which you are supporting is wrong.

Well currently the pride factor make it hard to achieve anything. Which is why I don't like the idea. In our small community I see alot of trouble cause by this, so I can't see how it ever can be successful on a national level. We need to strip ourslelves off the pride of nationalism and humble ourselves under the banner of islam

Salam Muslims
Peace Non Muslims

To TheRevivalEditor. At best your arguments may be a weak Islamic opinion since the discussion is within galabatul zann (based on least amount of doubt) i.e. not clear cut. But I have not come across any classical scholar to have taken any of your understandings (except in specific circumstances which they mention clearly)

I am well aware of those opinions but I feel awkward attempting to refute your opinions since I believe you have not done justice to it.

For your point no. 3 The HT do not deny it is in origin fard ul kifayah. Indeed establishing the state is similar to appointing the Khalifah and this is fard ul kifayah. But when does this fard ul kifayah become fard ul ine’? Please answer with daleel (from the Qur’an and the Sunnah) if not than that opinion given by a classical scholar.

For your point no. 2

Regarding having more than one Islamic state please state daleel (from the Qur’an and the Sunnah) ) if not than that opinion given by a classical scholar.

Salam Muslims
Peace Non Muslims

EazyD, The burden of proof is on the other side. Everything is allowed until it is forbidden. If there is no evidence it is forbidden, it is allowed.

Regrding point two the main thing ios they are naive in the extreme. They want a khilafah to be established all over the muslim world all in one instance.

There could even be many states in a khilafah (following the example of the EU), with semi porous borders, economy, policy etc.

Islamic history has shown many types of state and empire. We can add to them.

However answering the questions I will leave to 'Ed as my experience of HT's is rather limited (they would not answer my questions, and say I can only get answers after I join. No way!)

salaam

Easy D,

First of all you need to give answers to the 9 points i mentioned earlier, if u disagree then you provide the daleel pls...and i will give my further comments after that...

i have no intention of a heated debate...the 9 points i have mentioned is what MOST people who dislike or diagree HT speak about...and no one from HT gives any decent answers, it would be great if we could speak to a scholar but seems like they havent got any!

For me this discussion would be educational and not a slanging match.

wasalaam

Salam Muslims
Peace non-Muslims

To Admin:

It was TheRevivalEditor that began attempting to refute HTs stances. So the burden of evidence is with him. My concern was that he did not clarify his position with credible evidence other than an emotional outburst.

As a result I wanted him to clarify his position using Islamic evidences and quotes from classical scholars. Why classical scholars? Because many of the contemporary scholars (e.g. The proud to be called ‘Westerner’ Shaikh Ibrahim Mogra) are affected by the intellectual and political leadership of capitalism.

To TheRevivalEditor

I am very disappointed at your last response. You actually want me to bring daleel when it is you who had the nerve to state HTs stance and simultaneously had the audacity to refute them with the clear intent to undermine their opinions! All this knowing full well there are no HT present in this forum to defend it. But hey there is a supporter.

First of all I really do not want to make this into a lengthy debate between HT and you for I am only a supporter of them. If you want a good decent ‘educational’ discussion it would only be correct if you were to approach a member of that party and discussed it with him directly.

I just don’t like the way you make out that their opinions are baseless and your recent slander (lying in HTs absent) that they don’t have scholars. These remind me of the forum days of Sunni Hanifi and Abu T against Minhaj an Nabuwwah (who was a member of HT). Minhaj an Nabuwwah was very good in defending his party from which I learnt a lot more. I wonder what’s happened to these brothers.

By the way in contrary to your view Abu T and Sunni Hanifi had no objection to the obligation of working for Khilafah being the MAJORITY opinion. This majority and minority opinion needs to be shunned as it holds no value today when most of the Ummah do not pray or wear hijab and were most outspoken scholars are non-islamic government paid scholars. Opinions need to be referred to the classical scholars of the salaf and the khalaf.

As for HT scholars some of them came to Britain like Sheikh Isaam al Ameerah, Imam Abul Hasan and Shaikh Usama Mator. Why did you not meet them if you were so concerned to meet their scholars? To me it is inconceivable for a party as sharp as this not to have scholars? Infact there are many knowledgeable brothers who can be accessed today in Britain for details discussions of fiqh like Kamal Abu Zahra, Asif Khan, Abu Yusuf al Hanbali, Rashad Ali, and Abu Muhammad.

Furthermore have you ever read through one of their mandatory study books like Nidham ul Islam or Methaheem Hizb ut Tahrir al islami to at least grasp the level of discussion they must have in their private teachings. They say these are only the first 2 and they have 24 other books to go through!

End of the day I may disagree with many of their views but I have utmost respect for their adherence to the Islamic teachings. As an example I will quote from one of their scholar of the past Shaikh Muhammad Khair Haikal to refute your point 2.

The Shaikh in his voluminous book ‘Al-Jihâd wa al-Qitâl fî as-Siyâsah asy-Syar’iyyah’ has a whole topic titled: Is forming many Islamic States a Method to establish The Khilafah. He uses Ijma’ as shahaba (the strongest of the ijma) to refute this argument “It is narrated that Al habbab Ibnu Munthir said: “When the Sahaba (ra) met in the wake of the death of the Prophet (saws) at the saqifa of bani Sa’da, (they said) “One Amir from us and one Amir from you” (From the Muhajiroon and Ansaar). Upon this Abu Bakr (ra) replied “It is forbidden for the Muslims to have two Amirs for this would cause differences in their affairs and concepts, their unity would be divided and disputes would break out amongst them The Sunnahwould be abandoned, the Bida’a would spread and the fitna would grow, and that is in no one’s interest” The Sahaba (ra) heard this and consented. Hence it becomes matter of ijma”

As for hadeeth the Rasulillah (saws) said “When the oath of allegiance has been taken for two khalifs, Kill the latter of them” [Sahih Muslim] as for the opinions of some classical scholars. Imam Jozairi (ra) says “The Imams of the four schools of thoughts agree that the imama is an obligation….It is forbidden for Muslims to have two Imams in the world whether in agreement or discird” [Al-Fiqh ala Madhabi al Arba’], Al-Imam Al-Nawawi says "It is forbidden to give an oath to two Imams or more, even in different parts of the world and even if they are far apart". [Mughni Al-Muhtaj] and Al-Imam Al-Mawardi says "It is forbidden for the Ummah to have two Imams at the same time." [ Al-ahkam Al-Sultaniyah]

It is also important to mention that yes there will be wali (governors) of different provinces (within the vast Islamic State) but they are appointed by the khalifah and not elected by the people. (I hope admin is reading). Meaning their existence requires the existence of a khalifah i.e. the khalifah needs to be established first. The daleel are numerous as Rasulillah (saws) as the Leader of the Islamic State appointed all of the Walis (Governors). As for the classical scholar to back this understanding Imam Al Qurafi (ra) says “Whatever the Propeht of Allah (saws) did on the authority of leadership it is NOT allowed for anybody to perform it except by the permission of the imam following the following the Messenger of Allah (saws) because the reason of his work was in the capacity of a leader” and he continues “…appointing judges and walies, dividing the booty…are the responsibilities of the Khalifah.. or his assistants or deputy (that have been appointed) and it is not allowed for anybody except him” [Qawaid Al Farooq]

I hope this suffices. I hope it is decent and educational. If you, The RevivalEditor, are sincere then you will bring me daleel and quotes from the classical scholars to refute it (instead of e.g. excuses and distraction of topic). And at minimum I hope from you that you realise that HTs opinions are not out of cuckoo land but based upon Islamic evidences.

I hope I have done justice for my brothers of HT. And I hope they don’t’ get banned for they are truly an intellectual party.

Salam Muslims
Peace Non-Muslims

EazyD, I understand your point, and look forward to reading the following conversation between you and Ed. I have my popcorn ready.

From what I understand there is no oppisition to the fact that working for the khilafah is obligatory. However it is a communal obligation, and not a individual one.

salaam

Easy D,

thank you for your lengthy post

i dont ridicule or dis respect HT, i just dont agree with them

i have spoken to many members and supporters of HT at my uni days...i have read the book 'islamic state bt Taqiyuddin nabhani' and many other HT leaflets...

i have even spoken to Omar Bakri when he was head of HT.

let me just say to you that top scholars in the world today from all groups, school of thpoughts, organisations, sects diagree with most of everything that HT stand for.

Scholars include like Hamza Yusuf, his shaykh Abdullah bin bayah, Abdul Hakim Murad, Zaid Shakir, Shaykh Muhammad al Yaqoubi, shaykh muhammad shareef, shaykh muhammad tahir ul qadri, one of his teachers Shaykh Muhammad alawi al malikki al makki, Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, Dar al-Iftaa; Darul Uloom; student of Mufti Taqi Usmani, Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Muslim World League, Makkah; OIC Islamic Fiqh Academy, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Islamic Society of North America; Islamic Information Foundation, Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid, Supervisor, Islam QA.com; student of Shaykhs Bin Baz and Ibn Uthaymeen, Shaykh Ahmad Kutty, Islamic Institute of Toronto; Islamic Center of Canada, Mufti Ibrahim Desai, Darul Ifta, South Africa, Shaykh Salman Al Awdah, Imam Bin Saud Islamic University, Maulana Khalilul Rahman Sajjad Nomani Nadwi, Darul Uloom Nadwatul Ulama and Madinah University, Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra, Shaykh Suhaib Hasan, Secretary, Islamic Sharia Council of Great Britain, Shaykh Abdur Raheem Green, Dr. Musharraf Hussain, Director & Imam, Karimia Institute, Nottingham; graduate of Al Azher University, Shaykh Haitham Al-Haddad, Shaykh Muhammad Al-Mukhtar Al-Shinqiti...and many others in the world today DISAGREE on alot of the issues regarding HT. Surely they are not all misguided...
so brother i am not alone...not many ppl in the world today agree with HT.

but what i will do bro is compile a comprehensive piece on all the points i have mentioned and send it to you by the end of the week inshallah, if that is ok with you.

bro, i'm all for unity, even though i disagree with HT they are still our muslim bros and sisters in Islam, so we can still work together for the common causes...and The Revival has openly stated in all our media interviews that we are totally against HT being banned.

OK bro, apologies if you were insulted by my comments but that was not my aim. I will now inshallah send you some arguments soon to back up what i said with proper daleel inshallah.

take care
wasalaam

Salaam

cant remember where i heard about the HT booking an event under a salsa organisation (probz sumwhere here)....but today outside the mosque at Jummah....they were handing out leaflets

never knew they existed around our area...they really are reaching out :shock:

Sunday 4th - all day event in London - Hizb ut-tahrir & the vision for the Caliphate

topics bieng covered :

- unholy Alliance? Western governements and the dictatorships of the Muslim world

- The Caliphate: Accountable governments for the Muslim world

- Securing the rights of all citizens - Muslim and Non Muslim

- The important role of women in the Caliphate

- The Caliphate can tackle 3rd world poverty

- The Muslim world has the right to choose its own political destiny

- Q&A

Nah, they were giving out leaflets outside Victoria Park mosque in Manchester last week when I was there. They are reasonal number in manchester by all accounts. I think this event will be good, they have my two favourite HT speaker in Taji Mustafa who brillant for the youngsters and Dr Abdullah Robin. Might go down, will be interesting to here their views as they covering some very important subjects.

yeah but i didnt knw theyre in oldham, or at least within our mosque. oh well.....when they due to be banned?

"Darth Hayder" wrote:

yeah but i didnt knw theyre in oldham, or at least within our mosque. oh well.....when they due to be banned?

Hopefully they won't be. Muslims need to understand what a ban on Ht will mean for muslims in Britian as a whole. Plus they won't simply disappear, this ban will not change the view of any HT members, so the problem will remain. Personally I think Blair is just trying to send out a statement of intent.

deleted

"yuit" wrote:

"Darth Hayder" wrote:

yeah but i didnt knw theyre in oldham, or at least within our mosque. oh well.....when they due to be banned?

Hopefully they won't be. Muslims need to understand what a ban on Ht will mean for muslims in Britian as a whole. Plus they won't simply disappear, this ban will not change the view of any HT members, so the problem will remain. Personally I think Blair is just trying to send out a statement of intent.

in an ideal world they should be banned, not by the government but by all the mosques.
if govt bans them they will become martyrs and heroes....
i cant stand them , they disunite the muslims
confuse the youngsters
come out with alot of confusing stuff that no other muslim group, organisation, islamic scholasr agree with
they just bang on about khilfah
they have some good points, but too many bad ones...
their speakers are emotional but come out with wishy woshy concepts, shake muslims up...and thats it

they will be always be around, so i suppose we just have to tolerate them...

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

"Darth Hayder" wrote:

yeah but i didnt knw theyre in oldham, or at least within our mosque. oh well.....when they due to be banned?

Hopefully they won't be. Muslims need to understand what a ban on Ht will mean for muslims in Britian as a whole. Plus they won't simply disappear, this ban will not change the view of any HT members, so the problem will remain. Personally I think Blair is just trying to send out a statement of intent.

in an ideal world they should be banned, not by the government but by all the mosques.
if govt bans them they will become martyrs and heroes....
i cant stand them , they disunite the muslims
confuse the youngsters
come out with alot of confusing stuff that no other muslim group, organisation, islamic scholasr agree with
they just bang on about khilfah
they have some good points, but too many bad ones...
their speakers are emotional but come out with wishy woshy concepts, shake muslims up...and thats it

they will be always be around, so i suppose we just have to tolerate them...

I disagree, I think they been brillant for the muslims in the uk. I look at all the young muslims who were practicing 10 years ago and they all were HT. They set a benchmark for how things should be done and they made islam understandable for the muslims youth of the uk, by projecting islam in english and in method that would attract the youngster, it could be said they were the first group targeted at the youngster. They should be praised for that.

They made mosque get up and do things for the community, they may have just done it to take away the power from the HT lot, but the HT lot made thing happen. They also made the youth understand some very important concept about islam like nationality playing no part in faith. The idea of Khalifah is very noble and it given alot of muslims hope, when they really isn't any at this time. They more a political group and they ain't really that emotional. You find group like MPAC use as much emotional subject as HT do, in fact all politican do. It part of the game. As long as it get people to get up and stand up, what wrong with it, do u have the same opinion on MPAC as u do of HT.

They only disunite, because people want them to disunite. I perfectly happy to listen to their opinion and take what I want from them, but some people have to make issue out of everything, so u can't just blame the HT lot for causing disunity. Ht do try to back up everything with islamic evidence and it on the people to make judgement on that. I much rather look at all the good point of HT, rather then the detail that seperate us.

I cannot say much in praise of HT so I wont say much to criticise them either.

However one important point to help see if a group is upon righteousness is whether or not it is guided by ulama. HT does not have Ulama acting as their leaders and mentors, rather they have people who come on tv saying things without fully understanding what it is that they are saying. They have one idea lodged in their brains - khilafah - and nothing else enters.

If you ask what type of khilafah, how is the leaders to be chosen, who will choose the leader. Who will administer the rule of law, will it be religoius scholars, will it be some ordinary person off the street? Will you allow blue movies because you think its a shadow of hte person?

HT can be tolerated if it wasnt for their immense disrespect for some of the Sahabah. Som1 mentioned to me that they criticised Hadrat Ameer Muawiya radhiyallah anhu. For me that one action is enough for me to not have anything to do with them. A people who want to establish a pan-islamic state whilst insulting a Sahabi throws to dust all their work and shows that although they may think they doing good, infact they are just spreading corruption on the earth.

Would I support banning them?

I dont care either way.

Don't ban them - convert them.

None of you guys are a danger to the state or militant or any of that craziness and yet ur all muslims.

Seems to me HT is a bit confused - unconfuse them.

It's not going to help to ban them or export them "back home" where they will still be preaching the same confusion to other muslims.

You gotta defeat the idea - not the people - the people are the victims.

"yuit" wrote:

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

"Darth Hayder" wrote:

yeah but i didnt knw theyre in oldham, or at least within our mosque. oh well.....when they due to be banned?

Hopefully they won't be. Muslims need to understand what a ban on Ht will mean for muslims in Britian as a whole. Plus they won't simply disappear, this ban will not change the view of any HT members, so the problem will remain. Personally I think Blair is just trying to send out a statement of intent.

in an ideal world they should be banned, not by the government but by all the mosques.
if govt bans them they will become martyrs and heroes....
i cant stand them , they disunite the muslims
confuse the youngsters
come out with alot of confusing stuff that no other muslim group, organisation, islamic scholasr agree with
they just bang on about khilfah
they have some good points, but too many bad ones...
their speakers are emotional but come out with wishy woshy concepts, shake muslims up...and thats it

they will be always be around, so i suppose we just have to tolerate them...

I disagree, I think they been brillant for the muslims in the uk. I look at all the young muslims who were practicing 10 years ago and they all were HT. They set a benchmark for how things should be done and they made islam understandable for the muslims youth of the uk, by projecting islam in english and in method that would attract the youngster, it could be said they were the first group targeted at the youngster. They should be praised for that.

They made mosque get up and do things for the community, they may have just done it to take away the power from the HT lot, but the HT lot made thing happen. They also made the youth understand some very important concept about islam like nationality playing no part in faith. The idea of Khalifah is very noble and it given alot of muslims hope, when they really isn't any at this time. They more a political group and they ain't really that emotional. You find group like MPAC use as much emotional subject as HT do, in fact all politican do. It part of the game. As long as it get people to get up and stand up, what wrong with it, do u have the same opinion on MPAC as u do of HT.

They only disunite, because people want them to disunite. I perfectly happy to listen to their opinion and take what I want from them, but some people have to make issue out of everything, so u can't just blame the HT lot for causing disunity. Ht do try to back up everything with islamic evidence and it on the people to make judgement on that. I much rather look at all the good point of HT, rather then the detail that seperate us.

i spoke to many HT people at uni, and meet them up and down the UK

ive listed in this thread earlier my disagreements with them, which most leraned qualified scholars also diosagree with them. Lets be frank EVERYONE outside Ht dont like them, disagree with them...you know why...

they dont really have any scholars
they have a dream about khilafah
they do about 600 talks on khilfaha...

they've done jack in the uk, apart from accusing muslims of dying of jahiliyah and commiting nationalism...even that concept they totally dont understand. to say im pakistani is nationalism, to wear pakistani cricket shirt is nationalism....ask any scholar and they will dsiagree
they take naeive youngsters off the street and brainwash them...simple as.... i was almost one of them..but hamdulillah good scholars saved me from them,

they live in the uk but say u cant vote, cant join political party, can get involved in political sysytem, no political lobbying- they make muslims weak in the UK. they dont allow them to exercise their voice, power, stand up for their rights, hold mps, councillors accoutable, even attend anti-war rallies.... they dont do or suggest anything practical, its all talk about khilafah....
so when a bro is upset by iraq, then cant do anything practical in uk through political lobbying so th eonly option left to them is suicide attacks...so HT are rsponsible for this kind of action i'm afraid. they make a muslim angry, then leave him to suffer!

they havent made the mosques active, just created fitna, so mosques had to sort em out.... why do almost every mosque not allow them to attend, hold events...why? deobandi, brelwi, salafi, jamat islami, shia....simple..beacuse they are misguided...create confusion

they go confrences and when they disagree they start shouting out from the back, like they did to shaykh hamza yusuf- terrible! no islamic ettiquettes..and they want to establish khilafah....

i do speak to the brothers and discuss with them.... but obviously they dont listen. i always try to take them to a cholar but they refuse , as they say we dont to go to a scholar!

MPAC are brilliant, they really shut them up! they are active, make muslims politically active, not all talk, give proper solutions, not just talk about 'khilafah', they make sure muslims hold concillors and mps accountable, answer the media, wake muslims up, ht's put muslims off!

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

"Darth Hayder" wrote:

yeah but i didnt knw theyre in oldham, or at least within our mosque. oh well.....when they due to be banned?

Hopefully they won't be. Muslims need to understand what a ban on Ht will mean for muslims in Britian as a whole. Plus they won't simply disappear, this ban will not change the view of any HT members, so the problem will remain. Personally I think Blair is just trying to send out a statement of intent.

in an ideal world they should be banned, not by the government but by all the mosques.
if govt bans them they will become martyrs and heroes....
i cant stand them , they disunite the muslims
confuse the youngsters
come out with alot of confusing stuff that no other muslim group, organisation, islamic scholasr agree with
they just bang on about khilfah
they have some good points, but too many bad ones...
their speakers are emotional but come out with wishy woshy concepts, shake muslims up...and thats it

they will be always be around, so i suppose we just have to tolerate them...

I disagree, I think they been brillant for the muslims in the uk. I look at all the young muslims who were practicing 10 years ago and they all were HT. They set a benchmark for how things should be done and they made islam understandable for the muslims youth of the uk, by projecting islam in english and in method that would attract the youngster, it could be said they were the first group targeted at the youngster. They should be praised for that.

They made mosque get up and do things for the community, they may have just done it to take away the power from the HT lot, but the HT lot made thing happen. They also made the youth understand some very important concept about islam like nationality playing no part in faith. The idea of Khalifah is very noble and it given alot of muslims hope, when they really isn't any at this time. They more a political group and they ain't really that emotional. You find group like MPAC use as much emotional subject as HT do, in fact all politican do. It part of the game. As long as it get people to get up and stand up, what wrong with it, do u have the same opinion on MPAC as u do of HT.

They only disunite, because people want them to disunite. I perfectly happy to listen to their opinion and take what I want from them, but some people have to make issue out of everything, so u can't just blame the HT lot for causing disunity. Ht do try to back up everything with islamic evidence and it on the people to make judgement on that. I much rather look at all the good point of HT, rather then the detail that seperate us.

i spoke to many HT people at uni, and meet them up and down the UK

ive listed in this thread earlier my disagreements with them, which most leraned qualified scholars also diosagree with them. Lets be frank EVERYONE outside Ht dont like them, disagree with them...you know why...

they dont really have any scholars
they have a dream about khilafah
they do about 600 talks on khilfaha...

they've done jack in the uk, apart from accusing muslims of dying of jahiliyah and commiting nationalism...even that concept they totally dont understand. to say im pakistani is nationalism, to wear pakistani cricket shirt is nationalism....ask any scholar and they will dsiagree
they take naeive youngsters off the street and brainwash them...simple as.... i was almost one of them..but hamdulillah good scholars saved me from them,

they live in the uk but say u cant vote, cant join political party, can get involved in political sysytem, no political lobbying- they make muslims weak in the UK. they dont allow them to exercise their voice, power, stand up for their rights, hold mps, councillors accoutable, even attend anti-war rallies.... they dont do or suggest anything practical, its all talk about khilafah....
so when a bro is upset by iraq, then cant do anything practical in uk through political lobbying so th eonly option left to them is suicide attacks...so HT are rsponsible for this kind of action i'm afraid. they make a muslim angry, then leave him to suffer!

they havent made the mosques active, just created fitna, so mosques had to sort em out.... why do almost every mosque not allow them to attend, hold events...why? deobandi, brelwi, salafi, jamat islami, shia....simple..beacuse they are misguided...create confusion

they go confrences and when they disagree they start shouting out from the back, like they did to shaykh hamza yusuf- terrible! no islamic ettiquettes..and they want to establish khilafah....

i do speak to the brothers and discuss with them.... but obviously they dont listen. i always try to take them to a cholar but they refuse , as they say we dont to go to a scholar!

MPAC are brilliant, they really shut them up! they are active, make muslims politically active, not all talk, give proper solutions, not just talk about 'khilafah', they make sure muslims hold concillors and mps accountable, answer the media, wake muslims up, ht's put muslims off!

I would like to answer your post, but too me I don't really see no point. You obvious have a very biased opinion on them and I will be wasting my time. And too be honest brother u are welcome to keep it. IMO your opinion is more brainwash then any HT brother I have came across and I am deadly serious about that, I can feel the hate in ur post and that ur weakness.

What they do is politically, is they don't look for their answer from teh Western government or system, but rather from Islam unlike other groups u tend to support. You really think MPAC can do anything, I personally don't, just liek I don't think HT can, but I much prefer their position on many of these things.

THE HT bro I know are brillant and from ur orginal comment, I ain't HT but I still like them and attend many programme of there that I think I will find benefical, and also I know I ain't the only one with that opinion, they able to get 5000 people attend their conferences and I sure they ain't that much HT member in the UK. Plus it ain't all Khalifah, I have found their talks in the past really helpful on how to adapt to living as a muslim in teh West, your opinion is naive on this matter.

Also Hmaza Yusuf was very critical of HT, and due to his position in the past that he took, he can't expect not to be critised by them. Also alot of scholar I spoke to disagree with voting in the western system as well, so don't try to make out that it only a position that HT take up. Also to try to blame them for Suicide Bombing is laughable, let just blame them, let not look at the fact that all those muslims march and it the government still didn't do anything and still went too war with IRAQ, that agrument only work if the people who commited that act were HT member, but they were not, but too me this just show too me the hate you have for HT. But allhamduillah keep to ur opinion. :roll:

deleted

I asked them a simple question about the sources for their articles and they gave me some sarcy reply about reading the article rather than asking for sources.

That is my main problem with most muslims group they all talk a good game, but they don't really produce much. But allhumiduillah I try my best not to be blind from the good they do as Yashmati mention, I personally ain't do no where need as much as them so I ain't really in a position to critised. I know some brother who only ever come to HT talks and that not because they liked them or think they anything special, it just that they make the effort in getting them too attend.

They do used hadith and sunnah and it the basis that they used for being non violent. I don't think they do have deep hatred for the system, but they don't want to come across as being apologetic and they want to be seen taking a position of strenght, so that why they may seem like they do. On the kuffar thing, I know alot of brother don't like it, but a little while ago we had a moderate scholar come down and he must have said kuffar at least 10-20 time in his lecture but no one seem to mind. It all depend on who saying it with some people.

Anyway, I take my position on HT from Sh Khalid Yasin, who state that join with them, with what is good and let not the difference divide you.

"yashmaki" wrote:

But i duno is it me or do HT come across as having this deep rooted hatred for anyone or anything that isn't muslim or associated with islam? Or am i imagining it? Their literature always rants on about kuffar this kaffir that. They're out to get us .

They don't use hadith either to corroborate claims they make why is that? Do they reject hadith or what?

Actually have to disagree with you Muhtarama.

HT lit. is full of anti-west and anti-kafir statements but that is all they are statements. If you look the VAST MAJORITY of HT people shave or have small trimmed versions of beard, they dress in indecent clothing, they engage in free mixing. Basically they adopt loads of the ways of the non-muslims and then shout about how they hat the west blah blah blah. If there claims to obedience to islam were true then they would not have free mixing or shave their beards or wear anti sunnah clothing but no.

Truth is HT is a cult which is produced by a corruption of political islam. They have made islam ONLY into politics, ignoring everything else. By them if you dont discuss khilafah a certain number of times a week you are a sinner and are neglecting islam. Personally i think the ht cult have very little to do with islam but are rather the illegitimate product of some western political though, i heard they have marxist/socialist ideas but i dnt knw abt this kinda stuff so cant comment.

All I know is that they have NO ULAMA on board so immediately their validity is doubtful, further that they criticised Hadrat Muawiyah radhiyallahu anhu proves that they are NOT an islamic movement.

2. They do quote hadeeth but as with all deviant cults and sect they ONLY focus on the ones which fit with their agenda. An example of what it truly means to be on truth is like my stance with women and masjid in 'hijab and jeans' thread. There editor provided completely immaculate and authentic ahadeeth stating womens attendance to masjid is allowed, i accepted fully and with pleasure that those ahadeeth exist and accepted that te other side of the debat have valid evidences. However with HT type of groups they ONLY mention ahadeeth which fit their agenda, everything else is seen as insignificant.

I think you find most group are selective with what hadith they follow, why esle do we have so many groups. This is something we should look at with the whole muslim community not at just one group. Also as mention earlier Ht don't present themselves as a group like the deobandi or the Brewalvi, they sell themselves on the purpose of the khalifah. It is a very narrow way of thinking, but they are not trying to present themselves as something they not. In the past they may have, but not at the moment.

On the trimmed beard, I agree with you. HT followers don't really have beards, but you find yourself in mosque up and down the countries and this is a problem that is consitent with all mosques. Free mixing, I disagree with, I haven't been too one of their event where they have been free mixing, they pay special attention to this.

I agree that some of the position that they take do seem to contradict themselves, but if you look on the whole you will find that the problem that the muslims have currently are not teh fault of HT rather the fault of ourselves. And I believe that currently we should be more busy trying to correct ourselves rather then finding fault in what other are trying to do for islam, no matter how much we disagree with them. If someone can not project their opinion on what they think Islam and being muslims is about without insulting some other muslims, I think there is something seriously wrong. Surely if you think you so right, there is no need to go down that route.

I also like to apologies if anyone has taken anything I said on this thread personally.

dont get me wrong bro.

I m NOT blaming HT for our problems.

My one and only point is that HT claim to be one thing but in reality are another and also I am only trying to draw attention to the fact that by me they dont have any substance but is just a cult which draws in the youth because it doesnt accept the authority of ulama, and hence is hence so popular with the young people here who do not wish to follow their elders and betters but prefer to lead themselves and their own souls on whatever path fits with their carnal desires.

thats all i meant to say.