Interesting case... no idea where I stand on it.

Salam

She is my muslim sister. Period.

What she does in her own time is none of my business.

All I know is God loves her and therefore I love her.

Omrow

If a sock had a pulse, you would love it too

Its hard to predict what the outcome would be due to lack of detail but i can say 2 things for sure
a) if she comes dressed to the tribunal like she is in the picture, it dont matter how good her lawyer is, she aint gonna win. (for those of you that have never attended a tribunal, the judges tend to be white, old, upper class, traditional snobs).
b)there is no way they are gonna award her 20k for hurt feelings. She only suffered the "discrimination" for a week. High awards are made for excessive and long periods of discrimination. I predict IF she wins she will get no more than 700 pounds.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be.

I doubt it - otherwise she would have worn it the first week too.

Thank you for educated comments.
I have written a blog that may answer some of the questions.

http://fatafatafata.blogspot.com/

From that link:

You are here because you are interested in this story that has been put to all of us so brutally.

The case has absolutely nothing to do with any religion at all.

It’s a simple matter of dignity and my want to retain mine.

When I started working at Rocket I was required to wear black clothes (trousers and shirt).

On my fourth shift at the restaurant I was given a red tight dress to wear. I immediately refused, as I did not believe that wearing a red dress was appropriate. The bar was already full of men who seem to believe that they can buy anything and parading around in a red dress would make me seem available.

That answers some of the questions here.

(deleted comment)

Ignore me!

There is much more on that page too which lays out a good case.

The media just added muslim in the title. She is suing on sexual discrimination grounds not religious. She should know what a job as a cocktail waitress entails :S

yes it does seem that way.

Surely, the headlines in the newspapers should be:
- "Cocktail waitress sues club over 'sexually revealing' uniform" (Telegraph) and
- "Waitress: I was sacked for refusing to wear 'sexually available' red dress" (Daily Mail).

But then a woman alleging sexual harassment isn't news. But add in something about Muslims and it's all "drop the dead donkey!!!".

This is in fact one of those regular Muslim-bashing stories which the right-wing press cut and paste from each other. Readers are supposed to think "Those bloody Muslims. It's always want, want, want with them, isn't it. They're never satisfied. I tell ya, this country's going to hell in a handbasket and it's cos' of them damn Islams." (But in fairness reader comments on the Daily Mail website seem to see past the Muslim-bashing angle of Mail hacks.)

As ever, never take anything in the Telegraph, Daily Mail, Express and Sun seriously - esp when they write about Muslims.

BTW - Re: the pic in the first post in the thread. This pic is in the Sun and Telegraph. They could have used this pic which the Daily Mail used. But no. They wanted to make a point.

inyeresting use of different pictures. gives the article a whole 'nother meaning.

Hope Allah helps her. Or maybe its Allah trying to tell her not to work in the 'club'.

I work too in a club in London (for many years),and were i work we have to use un uniform which is a corset,really thight ,flattering and revealing,before you get a job in any club or bar you do your trial shift with the uniform of the club and if you don't like it is yor choice not to ask for a job.
It a free country and free will.
Also if you have a silver service background i honestly don't understand what are you doing in a cocktail bar,why she didn't look for a job in a 5 star hotel??
Working with drunk people at times happens that people will ask you out or try on you but not less than if you were going out to party with your friend,(you can kindly decline the offer and if people are rude the security will cick them out)i never worked in a club were
i was forced to go out with custmers actually the majority doesn't allow you to do so.
If you don't want to wear sexy outfit is your choice and you should check what the uniform is before apply for a job!!

Simple as!

If people dont want to wear such clothes then they really shouldnt work in such a place.

Not to mention the whole can of worms about working in a place that sells alcohol....

Assalamu alaikum,

yeah but like she indicated she's not practicing so alcohol won't be an issue for her. I'm not saying she drinks, but she prob doesn't seem issue around serving it, or being around those consuming it.

I always thought being a cocktail waitress was a seedy job, it has negative connotations, for women in general muslim or not. I am not a feminist because I don't agree with all their ideas, but I do believe women should not be treated like sexual objects, and this job to me isn't a respectful one. Even if she were in a shirt and formal trousers it's still a lowly job for a woman. Better to clean out toilets, work in factory than link yourself with this profession.

Hajjar wrote:

yeah but like she indicated she's not practicing so alcohol won't be an issue for her. I'm not saying she drinks, but she prob doesn't seem issue around serving it, or being around those consuming it.

Where does she indicate that?

How come you feel you can assume so much about someone you've never met?

"People will look at that photo and say she can't be so religious or care that much about modest appearance."

Actually when i looked at that photo i thought "Wow. Wankered much?" but she may well not have been drunk so that may be unfair...she just looks to me like she is.

Anyway i don't see what the big deal is... why did this have to be in the papers?
It looks simple to me...
Woman get's job.
Woman doesn't want to do something she's asked to do.
Woman whinges complains and refuses to do said 'something'
Woman gets fired.
End.

Life moves on. This story doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the rest of the world. It was only ever 'newsworthy' because said woman HAPPENED to have been brought up by a Muslim family and who 'last felt religious in 1989'

assalamu alaikum

Sorry brother but of late you've been nit picking every thing i say? What are you the moral police? Why are you trying to depict me as "miss perfect", coz i never claimed to be.

Neither did I claim to be self righteous or without sin, yet this is how you seem to think of me, as your comments are suggestive of this.

I think i was replying to another individuals comments.

As for the comment, i didn't realize it was insulting. The fact is if she is working as a cocktail waitress serving alcohol is her main role, so she's got to "not mind". If it was such a big issue to her she would be serving coffee not alcohol. So if that's insulting to anyone here too bad that's the fact. Are you telling me she minds serving alcohol, when she herself states she has happily been a waitress in this industry for a long time?

assalamu alaikum,

We judge all the time, human nature, so call me judgemental rude whatever i really don't care i'm not gona sit on the fence and sing the same song as the majority on the forum just to "fit in". Label me all you want.

. Would you let a daughter that you are trying to raise as a modest hijabi clad girl, hang out with a girl who thinks it's cool to wear transparent clothing,, mini skirts etc.? If you say no which im sure many would, then you'd be "judging someone" why is that bad? What's good morals to me is deemed bad by another, why because everyone has their own book of morals. Morality is based on judgements. AS muslims we take our moral guidelines and the manner in which to judge through the Quran and sunnah. Why is that a bad thing? It's different if you look down on everyone and think you're so great all the time. But if you say "no i don't want that girl hanging around with my daughter because i don't want her immodest fashion to effect my daughters attitude on the hijab are you a bad judgemental person? I don't think so, you're just trying to bring your daughter up as a good muslim. There is a difference.

So my comments about this woman not minding alcohol, if she minds it so much she wouldn't be serving it, if im rude for making the comment so be it i'm rude. What should I politely say? she detests alcohol but serves it and has done so for yrs? Paleeeze what a lie that would be!

I'm a Muslim but I don't 'detest' alcohol. And I don't detest anyone who drinks it (Muslim or not).

I choose not to drink, because I believe that is commanded by God, but I certainly don't think badly of the thousands of Muslims who work in supermarkets/restaurants where they handle alcohol and pork on a daily basis.

There are only so many jobs in the world, and I understand that most people have a family to feed.

I have many sins, and I hope that God is Merciful with me, and in the same way I hope He is Merciful with everyone else.

I wasn't particularly having a go at you, sister, but I was taking issue with what you said. Maybe I read it wrong, and if I did then I apologise, but the tone in your post (and in a few others) seemed a bit holier-than-thou, which is A) a very easy trap to fall into, something which I don't particularly like and C) something I think is important to call people out on.

Why do I think it's important to call people out if they seem to be coming across as holier-than-thou? Because it tends to be people who are doing 'well' in a lot of things, i.e. prayers, knowledge etc. It is Shaitan's last hope that he manages to spoil someone's good actions by making them look down on others. In this way, good actions can become a burden, rather than a source of happiness.

The hardest thing to do is not judge someone when you see them do something that seems to be bad. But we should try to make excuses for other Muslims, dozens if we have to, in order to think of them as morally good people.

I hope I didn't offend you, but in things like this I feel I have to be honest.

wednesday wrote:

And that neatly brings us onto a Dear Question: How Rude/False/Inaccurate is it to judge people by their shells?

(guilty)

Imo judging people 'by their shells',though it may be inaccurate, is inevitable...
Sometimes the 'shells' are all that we have to go on and so we have to make any judgement we can using what we have....
it's only until we've gotten to know people more that we can formulate a more educated judgement and verify whether or not our very first judgement was incorrect/inaccurate.

I guess it can be argued that we don't HAVE to judge people and that maybe some people don't but i don't think that's true... i think it's human nature to 'judge' people that come to our attention, maybe compare them to us or other people....see how they fit in with our experiences...

In that way i feel that's why the older you are, the more prone you are to judging people and in a more critical way- you've had more experience(s)

assalamu alaikum,

I detest alcohol and will not sit in a place with those who drink it. There are hadith which reflect how much our prophet was against alcohol. In fac there is one where he tells us not to sit with those who drink it. Outside of these environments i will mix with them, i do not think they're all bad ppl but i dislike the act of drinking.

Well i didn't think i was calling her out at all how can anyone say she detests alcohol when she works in a place where her sole job is to serve it?

Being a muslim is all about enjoining the good and forbidding evil. So it's natural for a muslim to see something that goes against their beliefs and to dislike it or even feel repulsed by it. It is their duty to say that act is wrong, rather than labeling an individual a kaffir. So yes I hate that this lady serves alcohol because she is a muslim, practising or not.But I never said i hated her there is a difference. I never implied she was a kaffir or i was better than her.

There is a different ruling for ppl who sell and handle alcohol and animal products in a supermarket, because these are classed as "packaged goods". In Hanafi madhab it's not haram to handle such goods or work in supermarket. But even so it is encouraged to find other work if possible, if no other work is available its allowed. So no i don't think bad of muslims working in supermarkets thats a different issue to me.

But would i say its ok for muslims to work in pubs or anywhere where they will have to serve alcohol no i don't think it's right. In fact it's sinful. This doesn't mean i'm holier than the next person, it simply means i'm trying to adhere to teachings of my faith. If you knew a muslim taking up such a job wouldn't you try and advise them not to work in such a place. I'd like to think i would.

There are plenty of jobs in this country and i don't believe this woman had to work as a cocktail waitress to survive, she herself stated she had another job not in this field. Even begging is haram so how can serving alcohol be overlooked. If you earn wages from haram source knowingly everything in your life is touched by it. The clothes you buy, the food you eat etc. Doing the haram to survive how can that be deemed halal and something to overlook? But these rulings don't apply to her because she has made it clear she is not practicing so a muslim spin on things is irrelevant.

As for appearances. Whether we like it or not ppl are judged on appearances. If you go for an interview you wear formal clothing, if you go to a ball you wear black tie or cocktail dress or you will not get entry, if you go to a wedding you dress a bit more glam. Every situation has a uniform. If appearances didn't matter why does every society create them?

Also in Islam the outer is a reflection of the inner state, or vice versa the two are inevitably linked. So when i was not practicing and all i cared about was a career and fashion i reflected that in my clothing. I was obsessed with one off pieces, I didn't particularly like mass manufactured clothing but i had some because I was not rich to have an entire wardrobe of one of pieces. I shopped every day, i had issues. But when i started practicing i changed my attitudes on clothing. Clothing was not the thing that defined me. I have few clothes but good quality ones. The purpose of clothes is to dress me, and it's not gonna kill me if i don't follow the latest seasonal trend. Now i am happy to cover my clothing with a jilbab, I don't seek no ones approval or praises except from those who love me, and God. whereas before i needed public recognition from friends society, it was very much about being seen and being accepted. This is but one example of inner outer state there are many more.

You make some good points, I agree with most, and I'm glad you didn't take offence from what I said.

I disagree on a couple of points, though. Firstly, in regard to how if someone isn't practicing, then it doesn't 'matter' for them. I disagree - I think it's a principal in Islam that if you abandon one thing from the religion, it doesn't mean that you should abandon other things from it. For example if someone didn't pray 'Asr prayer, they should still pray Maghrib. Or if someone doesn't pray at all they should still avoid drinking alcohol. I think you said something different to this, but even if not then there's no problem with me clarifying anyway, because I think it's very important.

Secondly, I don't think the 'external' of someone is necessarily linked to their internal; I mean this in terms of religion and other things as well. There's a phrase: "All that glitters is not gold" and I think it's very applicable. I know many people who 'look the part' but behind their eyes there isn't much going on... and also I'd like to think that, although people don't assume that I'm Muslim when they look at me, my belief is still pure and true. But on the other hand I know many people who are genuine and choose to express their beliefs externally - whether it is with a beard, a jalabiyyah or even a T-shirt with 'Don't Panic, I'm Islamic' written on it. I accept the reasoning behind their decision although I don't choose to do something similar myself.

wednesday wrote:

Exactly...

... Can I then go on and say Judging a book by its cover is NOT so harmful (for anyone)?

i guess you could say it's not harmful for EVERYONE and i'd agree with you...

But i disagree about it not being harmful for ANYONE.

For example, Racism isn't based on anyone's inner self but their 'shells', and for the people being abused for whatever race they are...being judged by the colour of their skin,being judged by their 'shells', is harmful for THEM

But what if the stereotype is true in the case of that person?

You wrote:

But what if the stereotype is true in the case of that person?

So what if it does?
That person is that way because of their disposition or because of their experiences or whatever... not because they are that race...

It's not a necessary condition for any race to act a certain way just because they are of that race. (as far as i know.)

Hajjar wrote:

assalamu alaikum,

I detest alcohol and will not sit in a place with those who drink it. There are hadith which reflect how much our prophet was against alcohol. In fac there is one where he tells us not to sit with those who drink it. Outside of these environments i will mix with them, i do not think they're all bad ppl but i dislike the act of drinking.

Well i didn't think i was calling her out at all how can anyone say she detests alcohol when she works in a place where her sole job is to serve it?

Being a muslim is all about enjoining the good and forbidding evil. So it's natural for a muslim to see something that goes against their beliefs and to dislike it or even feel repulsed by it. It is their duty to say that act is wrong, rather than labeling an individual a kaffir. So yes I hate that this lady serves alcohol because she is a muslim, practising or not.But I never said i hated her there is a difference. I never implied she was a kaffir or i was better than her.

There is a different ruling for ppl who sell and handle alcohol and animal products in a supermarket, because these are classed as "packaged goods". In Hanafi madhab it's not haram to handle such goods or work in supermarket. But even so it is encouraged to find other work if possible, if no other work is available its allowed. So no i don't think bad of muslims working in supermarkets thats a different issue to me.

But would i say its ok for muslims to work in pubs or anywhere where they will have to serve alcohol no i don't think it's right. In fact it's sinful. This doesn't mean i'm holier than the next person, it simply means i'm trying to adhere to teachings of my faith. If you knew a muslim taking up such a job wouldn't you try and advise them not to work in such a place. I'd like to think i would.

There are plenty of jobs in this country and i don't believe this woman had to work as a cocktail waitress to survive, she herself stated she had another job not in this field. Even begging is haram so how can serving alcohol be overlooked. If you earn wages from haram source knowingly everything in your life is touched by it. The clothes you buy, the food you eat etc. Doing the haram to survive how can that be deemed halal and something to overlook? But these rulings don't apply to her because she has made it clear she is not practicing so a muslim spin on things is irrelevant.

As for appearances. Whether we like it or not ppl are judged on appearances. If you go for an interview you wear formal clothing, if you go to a ball you wear black tie or cocktail dress or you will not get entry, if you go to a wedding you dress a bit more glam. Every situation has a uniform. If appearances didn't matter why does every society create them?

Also in Islam the outer is a reflection of the inner state, or vice versa the two are inevitably linked. So when i was not practicing and all i cared about was a career and fashion i reflected that in my clothing. I was obsessed with one off pieces, I didn't particularly like mass manufactured clothing but i had some because I was not rich to have an entire wardrobe of one of pieces. I shopped every day, i had issues. But when i started practicing i changed my attitudes on clothing. Clothing was not the thing that defined me. I have few clothes but good quality ones. The purpose of clothes is to dress me, and it's not gonna kill me if i don't follow the latest seasonal trend. Now i am happy to cover my clothing with a jilbab, I don't seek no ones approval or praises except from those who love me, and God. whereas before i needed public recognition from friends society, it was very much about being seen and being accepted. This is but one example of inner outer state there are many more.

OK, an interesting Judgment, Justice Hajjar. I think we should advise people who are working in pubs/clubs to find something else, but there is a way to do it, without giving them the "holier than thou" impression, I'm not saying that you're doing it though.

Maybe this is a wake up call for her, so maybe she will start practising more after this.
What did the tribunal rule, or when does it sit? Do you know?

The Lamp wrote:

OK, an interesting Judgment, Justice Hajjar.

There's no need for that. Hajjar has gone out of her way to be polite and explain her reasons. If you disagree, that is ok, but no need to be condescending towards her.

The Lamp wrote:

I think we should advise people who are working in pubs/clubs to find something else, but there is a way to do it, without giving them the "holier than thou" impression, I'm not saying that you're doing it though.

Maybe this is a wake up call for her, so maybe she will start practising more after this.
What did the tribunal rule, or when does it sit? Do you know?

No idea. But the woman was not arguing because of religious duties anyway, just "common decency" or something.