To Shake Or Not To Shake

You guys seem to have missed this very important statement

[quote=Courage]...Naz is gonna hammer me so badly for my joke!...[/quote]

If it is still a little subtle, let me highlight it for you

[quote=Courage]...[b]joke![/b]...[/quote]

[quote=You]You guys seem to have missed this very important statement

[quote=Courage]...Naz is gonna hammer me so badly for my joke!...[/quote]
[/quote]

no we didnt.

Naz saw it and replied with something profound like "Why?"

[quote=Seraphim]You guys need to relax more. Drink some cola and watch the game.

Just bcoz someone shakes your hand doesn't mean he's gonna start panting like a dog and making googly eyes at you.
Seriously... i mean comeon. There are far more attractive women out there who are WWAAAYYY more obtainable than you. So why would he waste his time? Whats sooo special about you? He doesnt even know you?

Shaking hands is just a formal greeting in this country of ours and we will thrive over it. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it..."this land".

Now quit acting like a bunch of weirdos.
[/quote]

so you are saying that it's ok to shake hands with the opposite sex? no big deal?

This was added onto my last post, but since there have been replies since, I will cut it from there and into a new comment(this one):

Now let me state the obvious. We know it is wrong.

At the same time we sometimes fall foul of this in the real world. That does not mean that the rules need to change, but we accept that we are not perfect and try to avoid such thing where possible. Some will be more successful than others.

Does that mean the people should not try or give up? no.

It means that we are fallible and at times we will succumb to what others expect. It will still be a sin.

If you want to make the "no big deal" argument, remember there is always a bigger deal than whatever is at issue. i say lets ignore everything except fro genocide. Why waste time condemning single murders when there is genocide gong on elsewhere?

[quote=You]
If you want to make the "no big deal" argument, remember there is always a bigger deal than whatever is at issue. i say lets ignore everything except fro genocide. Why waste time condemning single murders when there is genocide gong on elsewhere?[/quote]

Thats no where near the same arguement. Its not even in the same ball park.

Unless mass murder starts to become a formal greeting (which i doubt... coz then no one would greet anyone for fear of being murdered) its not the same thing. We're talking about a formal greeting here. Thats all... im not asking you to stab the other guy to death.

You guys just take things to the extreme. And i dont see any logic in it.

so you think refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex is extreme?

[quote=Seraphim]Thats no where near the same arguement. Its not even in the same ball park.[/quote]

Yes it is. Just that my example makes the absurdity of yours clear.

[quote]Unless mass murder starts to become a formal greeting (which i doubt... coz then no one would greet anyone for fear of being murdered) its not the same thing. We're talking about a formal greeting here. Thats all... im not asking you to stab the other guy to death.

You guys just take things to the extreme. And I don't see any logic in it.[/quote]

The logic is in the rules (from the ahadith in this instance). follow them, break them - that is your choice. But do not mock them with insignificance.

If something is common it does not mean ti has to be followed.

ftr, I have shaken hands, but when doing so, I was clear to myself that what I am doing is wrong. It was a sin which I should have avoided.

[quote=You]You guys seem to have missed this very important statement

[quote=Courage]...Naz is gonna hammer me so badly for my joke!...[/quote]

If it is still a little subtle, let me highlight it for you

[quote=Courage]...[b]joke![/b]...[/quote][/quote]

His [b]joke[/b] was saying that we should give the scholar a 'high-five'.

I don't think he mentioned whether the fatwa was a joke or not!

[quote=Muslimbro]We are told to lower our gaze, but touching an unrelated person of the opposite sex is much worse than staring at them. [/quote]

How is staring at someone with lustful intent worse than touching someone's hand [b]without[/b] lustful intent, just because it is customary in this country?

Apples and oranges.

I really hate arguments where people start using analogies. mainly because I can not think of any.

It may be worse or not a bad. Both are looked down upon.

(offtopic, but why are Muslims in the habit of hierarchies and categorising everything? e.g. This prophet ﷺ is the bestest ever, followed by ... who is followed by... and This Imam is the bestest ever followed by this imam who in turn is followed by this Imam. same with the as-haab.)

[quote=You]why are Muslims in the habit of hierarchies and categorising everything? e.g. This prophet ﷺ is the bestest ever, followed by ... who is followed by... and This Imam is the bestest ever followed by this imam who in turn is followed by this Imam. same with the as-haab.[/quote]

Isn't that the point of life?

now.. I knew I was missing something in life... but now you have solved it for me. My life is complete. I could die a happy man.

Quick question. Keyboard letter l or f? which is better?

[quote=You]now.. I knew I was missing something in life... but now you have solved it for me. My life is complete. I could die a happy man.

Quick question. Keyboard letter l or f? which is better?[/quote]

OK Admin, there's no need to be silly about this.

Everyone knows its f

[quote=Ya'qub]How is staring at someone with lustful intent worse than touching someone's hand [b]without[/b] lustful intent, just because it is customary in this country?[/quote]
Sorry, but I don't make up the rules.

This is a really good answer, I would not be able to put it any other way.

Link ->[url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1352&CATE=88][/url]

[quote=MuslimBro][quote=Ya'qub]How is staring at someone with lustful intent worse than touching someone's hand [b]without[/b] lustful intent, just because it is customary in this country?[/quote]
Sorry, but I don't make up the rules.

This is a really good answer, I would not be able to put it any other way.

Link ->[url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1352&CATE=88][/url][/qu…]

It is a good answer, but it doesn't cover my point of a lustful gaze being [b]worse[/b] than unlustful shaking hands.

I wasn't trying to say that it is suddenly halal.

None of us are in a position to issue any fatawa.

But I was saying on a personal level we have to work out what is best for us.

[center][b]Rasulullah S.A.W. said, "It is better for a man that a steel nail be driven through the centre of his head rather than if he touches the palm of a strange woman." [/b][/center]

[quote=Seraphim]
Just bcoz someone shakes your hand doesn't mean he's gonna start panting like a dog and making googly eyes at you.
Seriously... i mean comeon. There are far more attractive women out there who are WWAAAYYY more obtainable than you. So why would he waste his time? Whats sooo special about you? He doesnt even know you?

Shaking hands is just a formal greeting in this country of ours and we will thrive over it. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it..."this land".

Now quit acting like a bunch of weirdos.
[/quote]

Excuse me, why would we want to be "obtainable" and who said anything about attractiveness. Quit going overboard yourself. This is about not wanting touching a non mahrem mans hand for Islamic reasons, not because we think any man who wants to shake our hand wants us "lustfully" or because we think we are "it". Also who knows where his hand has been.

What's so special about us, we are Muslim women who don't want to be touched by every tom, bill and harry thats what is so special about us.

Why don't you quit acting like a weirdo.

Asalaamu alaikum.

ok i think you all need to clam down, lets talk about this like mature adults.

OK we have established that shaking hands, eye contact etc with the opposite sex is a sin. It is irrelevant whether one is more sinful then the other coz at the end of the day they are both a SIN.

I dont think there is a single profession where you are not in contact with someone of the opposite sex (if there is please do correct me)

@ MuslimBro you plan on being a copper one day. What are you going to do if you have to arrest someone of the opposite sex?

@ Noor and Alisha what do you do when someone of the opposite sex comes and sits next to you the bus? Or if you get on a really packed bus/ walk on a busy street/supermarket and a man brushes past you what do you do?

You dont live in a Muslim country so you either abide by their rules otherwise go and live in a Muslim country!!

[quote=Naz]

You dont live in a Muslim country so you either abide by their rules otherwise go and live in a Muslim country!!
[/quote]

That sounds like the BNP!!

There is no British law that say you HAVE to touch mambers of the opposite sex. Just like there is no British law that says you HAVE to drink alcohol.

You can live a perfectly Islamic life here cos none of the British laws tell us we HAVE to do something haram.

If there was such laws, then we WOULD have to go elsewhere.

[quote=Naz]@ Noor and Alisha what do you do when someone of the opposite sex comes and sits next to you the bus? Or if you get on a really packed bus/ walk on a busy street/supermarket and a man brushes past you what do you do? [/quote]

that’s a total different situation. whether if you shake hands with the opposite sex that’s up to you, you have a choice in the matter. you can either decide to stick your hand out or not. sitting on the bus, walking in a busy crowd you don't have a choice or say in the matter. it's like with hajj, in the shafi'i madhab if a woman touches a man her wudhu breaks, now when doing hajj a shafi'i will adopt the hanafi view because the hanafi opinion is that in that situation your wudhu isn't broken as it is impossible to not touch a man/woman in masjid al haram.

[quote]You dont live in a Muslim country so you either abide by their rules otherwise go and live in a Muslim country!![/quote]

so shaking hands with the opposite sex is part of legislation? wow, since when?

[quote=Noor][ now when doing hajj a shafi'i will adopt the hanafi view because the hanafi opinion is that in that situation your wudhu isn't broken.
[/quote]

he/she won't 'adopt' the Hanafi position! The rules of Hajj are different for everyone.

E.G. women praying in front of men. This is not acceptable in any madhab except on Hajj/Umrah when it is unavoidable. Same with touching a member of the opposite sex (even your own spouse), breaks wudhu for Shafi'i elsewhere, but not in the Masjid al-Haram.

There are other exceptions too: You can walk in front of someone who's praying a nafl prayer without it affecting their prayer (unlike normally when you can only do this during fardh prayers, if there is no other way to walk).

oh right, didn't know that. jazakAllahu khayr.

sorry my mistake maybe i should have been more clear. When i say rules i dont mean the law i mean rules as in rules of the profession. Each profession has its own rules. Most office jobs require you to greet clients with a hand shake. Working in retail requires you to wear the company uniform, working in a hairdresser requires you to show your hair, working as an airhostess requires you to wear the prescribed makeup and uniform. Some airlines dont allow trousers or hijabs as part of the uniform and some go as far as saying you have to sign a contract that you will not marry for X no. of years!

[quote= Noor]sitting on the bus, walking in a busy crowd you don't have a choice or say in the matter.[/quote]

Yes you do have a choice and a say in the matter. There aint no law saying you have to step out onto the street or get onto the bus, its a personal choice which you make . You know what your doing is wrong but nevertheless you still do. If you didnt go out then you wouldnt be able to get an education or get the shopping in.

Same with the hand shake you have a say in the matter and a choice. When you shake hands with someone thats a personal choice you make. When i go for a job interview and a hand is offered i will shake it. I know its sin but i know if i dont shake the hand i wont get the job. To them if you dont shake hands it means you wont be able to integrate with their staff and if you cant integrate you dont get the job.

Muslims have to work twice as hard to pass an interview coz as soon as we step through the door all they see is the hijab/beard/jalibia. Lets not give them another reason to discriminate.

i don't see how someone brushing past you is your fault. you didn't tell the person to brush past you nor can you prevent it :s i haven't come across a fatwa that says you sin if you brush past a person or accidentally touch them unintentionally and anyway, you will be covered with clothing so they wouldn't be touching your flesh. with the hand shaking that is crystal clear, the fatawa are very clear on the matter. anyway, everyone is different, some rather be jobless and avoid shaking hands and some may not see it as a big deal wa Allahu alam.

[quote=Naz]@ MuslimBro you plan on being a copper one day. What are you going to do if you have to arrest someone of the opposite sex?[/quote]
Touching unrelated members of the opposite gender is only permissible in cases of where there is a need, being a doctor or police officer for example. I'm sure you heard the news last year of the woman who refused to shake hands with Sir Ian Blair.

Link ->[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6284231.stm][/url]

[quote=Noor]i don't see how someone brushing past you is your fault. you didn't tell the person to brush past you nor can you prevent it :s i haven't come across a fatwa that says you sin if you brush past a person or accidentally touch them unintentionally and anyway, you will be covered with clothing so they wouldn't be touching your flesh. with the hand shaking that is crystal clear, the fatawa are very clear on the matter. anyway, everyone is different, some rather be jobless and avoid shaking hands and some may not see it as a big deal wa Allahu alam. [/quote]

There are plenty of fatawa that say women should not go out unaccompanied by their mahram, but it would be kinda impractical to tell your new employer that your dad has to come to work with you and watch you the whole time.

Whether you choose to follow these fatawa is you own decision.

And whether or not you work in a bank, ALL the money you deal with in life has been affected by interest; the whole World economy is based on interest; you are free to not receive or spend any money at all if you wish.

Islam is not supposed to harm or hinder us, it is supposed to help us. It is not supposed to be a burden, it is supposed to set us free.

Take an example of Freddie Kanouté: a footballer who converted to Islam. His team got a new sponsorship deal with an online gambling company. This required him to wear their logo on his shirt. He refused, and played the first few games of the season with the logo covered up. He only relented, and agreed to wear the logo, when the company agreed to make a sizeable donation to a Muslim charity. Is it important that the money that pays his wages comes from a gambling company? Is it important that the money that the charity received is from a gambling company? Allah (swt) knows best about these things. But I personally think it was a brave and praiseworthy thing for him to do, and I hope he is rewarded for his good intention.

[quote=Naz]sorry my mistake maybe i should have been more clear. When i say rules i dont mean the law i mean rules as in rules of the profession. Each profession has its own rules. Most office jobs require you to greet clients with a hand shake. Working in retail requires you to wear the company uniform, working in a hairdresser requires you to show your hair, working as an airhostess requires you to wear the prescribed makeup and uniform. Some airlines dont allow trousers or hijabs as part of the uniform and some go as far as saying you have to sign a contract that you will not marry for X no. of years![/quote]
If the job requires someone to do (or not to do something) and it goes against the Shariah then it means you're not allowed to work there. What's so hard to understand?

[quote=Naz]Muslims have to work twice as hard to pass an interview coz as soon as we step through the door all they see is the hijab/beard/jalibia. Lets not give them another reason to discriminate.[/quote]
[quote=Shaykh Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf Mangera]No body said it was easy to follow the din in the twenty-first century; whether one is in a Muslim country or the West. Didn't the Prophet Sallalahu alayhi wasallam say that a time will come when a person following his religion will be like one holding on to a cinder, and did he not say this world is a prison for a believer and a Paradise for the non-believer. One must remember that through perseverance and refraining from sin [sabr ani 'l-ma'siyah] there are great rewards to be gained, despite the apparent monetary or such losses one may have to incur in this world.[/quote]

[quote=Ya'qub]There are plenty of fatawa that say women should not go out unaccompanied by their mahram, but it would be kinda impractical to tell your new employer that your dad has to come to work with you and watch you the whole time.[/quote]
I'm not aware of any fatwas that restrict women to the house.

Based on what I know, women are allowed to go out alone but they are not allowed to go against their husbands wishes. So for example, the husband says to the wife you're grounded, and she goes out alone against her husbands wishes.

And the other ruling (of being accompanied by a mahram) only applies to women who are travelling long distances (distance of three days).

[quote=MuslimBro][quote=Ya'qub]There are plenty of fatawa that say women should not go out unaccompanied by their mahram, but it would be kinda impractical to tell your new employer that your dad has to come to work with you and watch you the whole time.[/quote]
I'm not aware of any fatwas that restrict women to the house.

Based on what I know, women are allowed to go out alone but they are not allowed to go against their husbands wishes. So for example, the husband says to the wife you're grounded, and she goes out alone against her husbands wishes.

And the other ruling (of being accompanied by a mahram) only applies to women who are travelling long distances (distance of three days).[/quote]

Tell that to the Saudis

Unfortunately no Muslim country applies Shariah law completely.

[quote=Ya'qub]Islam is not supposed to harm or hinder us, it is supposed to help us. It is not supposed to be a burden, it is supposed to set us free.[/quote]

and refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex is not setting us free? it's seen as a hindrance?

The Prophet ﷺ said: “There will come a time holding on to Islam is like holding on to a hot coal” Tirmidi.