Is it necessary to establish a khalifa?

heh, no need to feel hounded. Even if you may have been... 😂

I want to thank you for getting all that stuff together. I for one am too lazy to do so, so it helps to know what is out there.

No, seriously I did get it from the brother. He sent it to me as an attachment.

You don't believe me do you?.... oh well.

Why wouldn't I believe you?

:?

I was just being thankful for the info!

This is the second time in less than a week that a straight forward post by me has been misconstrued with some hidden meaning.

😢

Sorry... friend?

[img]http://www.vpsingles.com/pics/thumbsup.gif[/img]

As I said before, some of the stuff HT say did contradict what Dr Tahir ul Qadri said. And not many scholars talk about the issue of khilafah in detail as you can't believe what one scholar says and dismiss all the others.

I'll look into the points raised.

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]the Prophet ﷺ educated people about islam, how to do wudhu, how to pray salah, the haram the halal and once all that was covered then only did He ﷺ establish khilafah. all HTs conferences are about khilafah and nothing but.[/quote]
Before the Prophet (pbuh) established the Islamic State, how many people knew how to do wudhu, pray, ect. and compare that to the number of people today. The brothers I know are very active Alhamdulillah, they organise many things such as circles, talks, video nights which are also non-khilafah related. I'm sure they do other work in the background which we're unaware of.[/quote]

yes they are very active, busy recruiting and brainwashing the muslim youth! very islamic indeed!

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]They are a funny bunch, they have been around for 50 years and have been claiming ever since that khilafah is near errr HELLO, reality slap! Where is khilafah? I don’t see khilafah.. they’re living in a dream world.[/quote]
NO-ONE except Allah (swt) knows when the khilafah will be re-established. We shouldn't expect immediate results, be patient and Allah (swt) will give it to us when we're ready.[/quote]

so why do they say khilafah is almost here then?

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Sirus"]if they werent a sect, why hav i not come across as a tableeghi HT, or a salafi HT, or a brelwi HT, Sunni HT, shiia HT, deobandi HT, etc?[/quote]
You may not have come across a Sunni HT member but I have, infact all of them are Sunni's. They're not some secret organisation where their beliefs differ from ours. They're Muslims like us who just realise that re-establishing the khilafah is an obligation.
The reason why you don't see a Tableeghi HT is because they believe Muslims have gone away from their deen, so inorder to re-establish the khilafah, everyone has to be practising. Which aint gonna happen coz you will always get non-practising Muslims. There was even Munafiq's at the time of the Prophet (pbuh).[/quote]

they think they are sunni :roll: they are a sect, that group has their own beliefs. E.g, wearing socks is a must and if you don’t cover your feet you're getting sinned. Every single HT believes that. Imam Abu Hanifa (rh) says you don’t have to but they don’t even consider that opinion. anyway, this sect issue requires big study, read around the khawrij inshaaAllah.

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]whoever dies without giving baya to an Amir they die a death of jahiliyah. but there is no Amir?[/quote]
Which shows the importance of re-establishing a khilafah, and appointing an Amir.[/quote]

yeah when there is a khilafah but there isn't one so this hadith isn’t applicable.

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]which they then say, its fardh to work for a fardh SO you have to give baya to HT :? because they are the only group working for khilafah :roll:[/quote]
Or ask yourself this question. Is it possible to work for khilafah alone or collectively?[/quote]

collectively, HT isn’t the only group that’s doing this. firstly, why don’t HTs establish khilafah in their own homes, communities, masjids? They want to establish khilafah in the muslim world yet they are being thrown out of masjids! If they are not capable of uniting the masjids you really think they are going to establish khilafah for the whole world?

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]the Prophet ﷺ also said, if there is no Amir, then leave all the firaq (sectarian groups) and keep silent. that pretty much throws HTs argument apart.[/quote]
Can you get me the exact hadith, and also which hadith it's from. I've heard it before and understand it to be in a different context than you do.[/quote]

it's in that book. you'll get it soon inshaaAllah.

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]and are HT a sect? Yes.[/quote]
If you look at the definition of what a sect is you'll find that they are not a sect. If you didn't know, they're a political group.[/quote]

yes we all know they are a political group, they've said that loud and clear and yes they are a sect. i'm well aware of the definition of what one is.

[quote="MuslimBro"]Sorry... friend?

[img]http://www.vpsingles.com/pics/thumbsup.gif[/img]

As I said before, some of the stuff HT say did contradict what Dr Tahir ul Qadri said. And not many scholars talk about the issue of khilafah in detail as you can't believe what one scholar says and dismiss all the others.

I'll look into the points raised.[/quote]

shaykh muhammad al-yaqoobi talks about khilafah in great detail, apparently its an excellent talk, i'll get the name of that dvd inshaaAllah.

[quote="Noor"]
yes they are very active, busy recruiting and brainwashing the muslim youth! very islamic indeed!
[/quote]

While I agree with most of what you say, I have a small issue with this bit.

o you realise that the vast majority of non-Muslims think that Muslim parents 'brainwash' their children into believing in Islam. Or how some atheists say that raising you child into a particular religion is akin to child abuse?

I know its not linked to the topic, but its worth noting that anything can seem to be 'brainwashing' when looked at from the outside.

There is nothing wrong with brainwashing. It happens all the time.

Kids need to be brainwashed. We call that education.

and HTs brainwash the muslim youth in thinking they are getting sinned and bla bla bla! i was almost brainwashed so i can talk! HTs even laugh about it amongst themselves!

you all sound pretty brainwashed to me.

[quote="You"]There is nothing wrong with brainwashing.[/quote]

as a muslim a lot is wrong with it, the Prophet ﷺ didn't go around brainwashing people in accepting islam did he (saw)? when it comes to the deen people should be very careful in what they say to others. leading people astray is not a matter to be taken lightly.

[quote="Ya'qub"]you all sound pretty brainwashed to me.[/quote]

by whom? the Quran and Sunnah?

allhamdulilah 😃

Yes because everyone has very clear minds and pure thoughts, mashAllah!

[quote="MuslimBro"]Thus the Prophet (salAllahu alaihi wasallam) made it compulsory that every Muslim should have over him an Imam, which is also represented by having a pledge of allegiance (bay’ah) on his or her neck. [b]The pledge of allegiance is not given to anyone except the Khaleefah.[/b] [/quote]

i don't quite understand this, so what HTs are saying is that we can't give bayah to anyone other than the amir? like a shaykh? interesting... the following bayah were practiced by the sahaba.

1. Bayah-tul-Islam
2. Bayah-tul-Muhabah
3. Bayah-tul-Ita
4. Bayah-tul-Jihad
5. Bayah-tul-Hijrah
6. Bayah-tul-Taqwah

even though there wasn't a khilafah, the sahaba gave bayah on other matters whereas nowadays, HTs think we can only give bayah to the islamic state :roll:

I was a target i believe to be "brainwashed" alhamdullilah allah swt guided me away with sleepless nights (i was young) i decided against attending soo many talks.

[quote="Noor"]so why do they say khilafah is almost here then?[/quote]
Do they?

[quote="Noor"]...E.g, wearing socks is a must and if you don’t cover your feet you're getting sinned. Every single HT believes that...[/quote]
Huh... weird, if they do then I have never noticed that. This I have to see.

[quote="Noor"]and HTs brainwash the muslim youth in thinking they are getting sinned and bla bla bla!...[/quote]
I think their argument is that, as it's fard khifaya, HT are the only group doing something about it.

Ms bro why are you defending them may i ask?

I wouldn't say defending.

When you don't know about something/someone, you look at different sources and ask around. I'm just asking questions.

Obviously some people here know more about HT than I do.

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"]so why do they say khilafah is almost here then?[/quote]
Do they?[/quote]

yeah they do.

[quote][quote="Noor"]...E.g, wearing socks is a must and if you don’t cover your feet you're getting sinned. Every single HT believes that...[/quote]
Huh... weird, if they do then I have never noticed that. This I have to see.[/quote]

yah. the HT sisters are very distinctive.

[quote][quote="Noor"]and HTs brainwash the muslim youth in thinking they are getting sinned and bla bla bla!...[/quote]
I think their argument is that, as it's fard khifaya, [b]HT are the only group doing something about it.[/b][/quote]

in your opinion.

[quote="MuslimBro"]I wouldn't say defending.

When you don't know about something/someone, you look at different sources and ask around. I'm just asking questions.

Obviously some people here know more about HT than I do.[/quote]
How does that make sense? surely your being hypocritical when you only provided ht sources to back up your argument?

[quote="Noor"][quote][quote="Noor"]and HTs brainwash the muslim youth in thinking they are getting sinned and bla bla bla!...[/quote]
I think their argument is that, as it's fard khifaya, [b]HT are the only group doing something about it.[/b][/quote]

in your opinion.[/quote]
No, it's just that you don't see any other group doing what they're doing. And no, I'm not talking about brainwashing.

Maybe there is ever heard of the funzo movement?

Tell me more.

We want the khilafah to come back, but we realise that this current situation and time we decided that we should help the muslims be better and then tackle the issue. We are not a sect we are a political organisation we are sunni and do not differ from sunni beliefs.

[quote="MuslimBro"][quote="Noor"][quote][quote="Noor"]and HTs brainwash the muslim youth in thinking they are getting sinned and bla bla bla!...[/quote]
I think their argument is that, as it's fard khifaya, [b]HT are the only group doing something about it.[/b][/quote]

in your opinion.[/quote]
No, it's just that you don't see any other group doing what they're doing. And no, I'm not talking about brainwashing.[/quote]

and what exactly are they doing? apart from the demos and uni talks?

the amount of work Minhaj-ul-Quran is doing and has done, HT can't even compare. the amount of books, lectures Shaykh-ul-Islam has delivered, no organisation can match, hence being given that title. the Zaytuna Institute, a lot of Deobandis do a lot of work. most madrassas are run be deobandis. the above mentioned organisations are the only organisations educated Muslims on fiqh, tasawuf, aqaid, classical islam etc. difference is, not all of them make a song and dance about it.

Well can we consider you an un-biased source noor? obviously you would want to back minhaj up, i am not calling you a liar but just question your reliability.

of course. i''ve seen both sides of the argument. i was like muslimbro at one point, trying to convince everyone HT is the correct party, what a fool was i!

I understand that but maybe and its a big maybe your in a stage where you've gone to minhaj with the same attitude and i dont know about minhaj so i wouldnt know if they were seen as "good" or not.

[quote="Irfan.Khan"]We want the khilafah to come back, but we realise that this current situation and time we decided that we should help the muslims be better and then tackle the issue. We are not a sect we are a political organisation we are sunni and do not differ from sunni beliefs.[/quote]
Pffft.... and you call yourself the funzo movement.

Couldn't you think of a better name.

Im sorry, but you would be pleased to know we attack... erm i mean meet kids on a regular basis :roll: its waaay better than ht.