Anti-Muslim prejudice is rising across Europe. There are calls for bans on Muslim immigration, bans on the construction of mosques and a ban on women wearing the veil. France has already barred Muslim girls from wearing the hijab in school and Switzerland has banned the construction of minarets.
In Britain, the British National Party is gaining greater prominence. It calls Islam a “wicked and vicious faith” and its leader, Nick Griffin, is set to become an MP in the next general election.
What does all this mean for the millions of Muslims in Britain and Europe. Should we be scared for our future in Britain and Europe? Naheem Zaffar says YES. He argues that Europe is on the brink of repeating the mistakes of history by allowing far-right parties to gain power. Irfan Jalil says NO. He argues that the far-right can only gain power if we fail to engage politically.
Yes, They'll Kick Us Out!
When I was younger there was a fear within the immigrant community - one day we will be kicked out, told to go back home. This fear may still be the case for some people in many places.
I used to laugh at the thought that people worried about such things. In my mind pigs would fly before people would get any such notion.
The idea that people will get kicked out stemmed from decades ago, from when people came over to earn money working as cheap labour with a view of eventually returning "back home". They saved up money and sent it back, maybe even built mansions there to eventually return to. However the lifestyle they lived in the UK was generally more humble and affordable - if they were going to leave, or get kicked out eventually, there was no point building a future.
Over time however, such a view lost its strength, it became a diluted shadow of its former self and many people even forgot about its existence - they had kids, brought them up in the UK, integrated. Besides, we are in a civilised and liberal democracy, not some oppressive state. Britain is home.
The Bosnian war however did make some people sit up and think again - the Muslims there were native, so what chance did immigrant Muslims have? But again that was Eastern Europe. A world away from here. Surely nothing could go wrong here? A liberal society meant that we would be free to practice out faith, free to earn an honest living and free to live.
However, other actions in and around Europe may once again give such fears credibility. First there were the European elections where far right parties across the board got more favourable support.
Then there were almost constant attacks on women's rights where people want to liberate them by taking away their existing rights. The liberalism in France seems to have turned militant - forced liberalism where anything seeming out of the ordinary or less liberal is to be forced out or broken down.
Let’s not forget the phenomenon of the English Defence League non-violent protests that always turn violent, who say they are protesting against "extremist Muslims", but at the same time do not think Muslims can be moderate. So in their view all Muslims are extremist Muslims.
Once you have a target that you can vilify and dehumanise, anything can happen. Things may not seem too bad in the UK right now, but just look at how far Muslim/Non-Muslim relationships have gone in the past year - who would have thought Switzerland would ban minarets. Switzerland, a country so neutral it did not even stand up to Hitler! It will freely and willingly deal with drug dealers and despotic dictators, but when it came to Muslims it drew a line.
The prejudiced extremists in Switzerland first tried to campaign to ban halaal meat but backed down when they realised that the Jewish community also slaughters its meat. The echoes of prejudice and intolerance were too close to events that happened just a few decades earlier. Instead of dropping their open prejudice however, these extremists moved onto another issue to campaign on - minarets, which eventually saw them succeed.
There is a commitment from extremists to stir up trouble, to act on prejudice and spread malice. We cannot simply wish it away, just like we unfortunately cannot simply wish away extremism from within the Muslim community.
Those who do not learn from history are born to repeat it and there is an historic lesson to be learnt from Europe's history - from the Spanish inquisition to the European imperialism, through fascism and Nazism all the way to the Bosnian war. A few short years earlier who would have thought any of them would happen? Yet it is a process that has repeated itself time and again.
Can we still laugh at the idea that people will be kicked out of places like the UK for simply being Muslims?
No, They Won't Kick Us Out.
(...but we have to do our bit)
A few weeks ago the prospect of Nick Griffin becoming an MP had me feeling really down. I was re-evaluating my future in this country. I had hoped to raise a family in England, live my whole life here, grow old here and be buried here. But these modest and mundane aspirations would be seriously under threat if Nick Griffin were to sit as an elected member in the Houses of Parliament.
Yet, we've been here before. I live in Smethwick, which is a town just outside Birmingham. Peter Grifiths became MP for Smethwick in 1964. His campaign slogan had been “If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour”. A few years later another Conservative MP, Enoch Powell, gave a speech in which he said that rivers will run with “much blood” if black and Asian immigration to the UK continued. In 1972 Ugandan dictator Idi Amin expelled Asians from his country. Leicester City Council responded by taking out adverts in the Ugandan press telling Asians not to come to Leicester.
If either of these three things happened now, would we be talking about packing our bags and going “back where we came from”? The truth is that this country has seen the likes of Nick Griffin before. Our parents and grandparents who came to Britain in the 60s and 70s had to put up with far worse than the BNP. But our elders persevered. They made sacrifices, worked hard and tried to build a better future for their children.
Because of their efforts no-one now remembers Peter Grifiths, Enoch Powell became an irrelevance and Leicester City Council has now apologised for what it did. In fact, Leicester is set to become the first non-white majority city in Britain. Smethwick has countless mosques, the largest Sikh gudhwara in the country and the largest Hindu temple in Europe is only down the road.
Current anti-Muslim feeling in the UK is not pervasive. There are people who don't like Muslims, but there are many more people who aren't prejudiced and don't have an axe to grind against minorities. Yes the BNP and the English Defence League are crazy racists but we have our crazies too. Anjem Choudry is the Muslim community's own extremist clown. But just as he isn't about to lord over us as Grand Mufti of Britain, so Nick Griffin isn't going to become Supreme Archdragon of Britannia.
Besides, anti-Muslim feeling is just the current bigotry fad. It used to be Jews, then Catholics, then the Irish, then blacks and Asians and now it's our turn again, but this time as Muslims. Each time these hate-fads have reduced in intensity. Jews were kicked out, Catholics were forced underground, the Irish were abused, blacks were feared, Asians were used and, let’s face it, most people have had enough of hearing about Muslims and just want to move on.
Most people in Britain want to get along with each other as human beings. Divisions based on race, religion and nationality are old school - just desperate people holding on to the last vestiges of past certainties. In bad economic times when people lose their jobs and don't have any money, they look to blame other people for their misery. People of a different race or religion become the scapegoat of choice.
So, the likelihood of Nick Griffin becoming an MP should not send us into yet another paranoid frenzy. It is an opportunity for us to take stock and renew our efforts to make a permanent commitment to this country. No more longing for the homeland. No more sending uncontrollable sons and daughters to Pakistan to get married. No more spending hours discussing the latest twists and turns in Pakistan's or Bangladesh's topsy turvy politics. It's time to get serious about our future in this country.
All this should tell us that Nick Griffin and his BNP are merely a bump in the road. Most people in Britain are not racists and would not vote BNP. The BNP have only won seats in places where less than half of eligible voters voted. In other words, if more people were bothered to go and vote, the BNP would not win elections.
The problem isn't that the general population is becoming racist. The problem is that we're all too damn lazy. Nick Griffin is currently an MEP representing the UK in the European Parliament. He was elected from the region that includes Manchester and Oldham. Just think how many Muslims live there. I can't even keep count of the relatives I have there. But if they had voted in the European elections then Griffin would not have this electoral legitimacy.
There are people who will say that Nick Griffin becoming an MP in Westminster could be a harbinger of a new fascistic British politics. If he gets elected there will be a ban on the veil, a ban on Muslim immigration, a ban on the building of mosques. But any such anti-Muslim policies will be accompanied by limits on other minorities too. If Muslims are forced to pack their bags, Jews and blacks will be next. In our fight against an oppressive far-right government we will not be alone.
But a nationalist dictatorship is way off. Griffin, and others like him, need to get into Parliament first. And that can only happen if we carry on doing nothing. We can carry on thinking politics is boring and that all politicians are the same and that nothing ever changes. Maybe it will take a ban on the veil for us to realise that politics isn't so boring. Maybe when Prime Minister Nick Griffin or President Adolf Cromwell walk through 10 Downing Street we will realise that politicians are not all the same. Maybe when we realise that we can't teach our children the Quran we will realise that elections do change things.
The BNP can only gain real power if we carry on doing nothing. The first thing we can do is go out and vote.
What do you think?
Let us know your thoughts. Log on to http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums and join the debate.
Comments
With the new burka ban in Belgium that was passed unianimously in parliament today, it seems things are moving very rapidly downhill.
When I first wrote the piece that became "they will kick us out", it was more a creative writing piece - me trying to be spooky. But there seems to be a long spiral that community relations are going down and the end result does not look good.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I was watching on BBC IPlayer a programme called History Cold Case which brought up an effort by Queen Elizabeth to deport blacks/moors from Britain. Interestingly, it conveniently fell into a time when Britain's elites needed to raise money for the crusades that they were involved.
No doubt they were dispossessed of their livelihoods and properties with the proceeds going into the coffers of the crusade. They were probably shipped to Africa on the very same ships carrying the same knights who stole their dignity.
I don't think it is about "taking away from others", more that prejudice has a greater chance to be seen/shown at times where there is more strife, when people have worries about wealth or safety.
Due to the recession, we are bang in that same time frame now and prejudices can come out and even be exploited by politicians either as a smokescreen from real issues or to heighten their political ambitions.
(Lets not forget the threat of terrorism which Tony Blair introduced to the UK by invading Iraq...)
Treacherous waters these be.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Just an abstract discussion with no reality.
The policy is not to kick anyone out - it is to subvert Muslims and Islam. Introduction of a British Moderate Islam - encourage most Muslims to follow it using carrot and stick approaches... those who speak against it, label them extremists!
If that fails, then alternatives will be considered - if not, job done. No need to expose the gruesome reality under the facade of democracy and civility...
You're making it sound like there is a conspiracy.
(as for abstract, it mentions real situations. If the real world is abstract...)
(the carrot and stick approach has already failed because we only let ourselves decide what we want to think and do not leave it to the authorities. Any attempt to force categorisation on their terms has failed.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I'd say abstract or unrealistic as participation in majoritarian political systems like Britain cannot prevent the far right from coming to power - maybe someone can explain how if there is any reality to this and it is not purely speculative. The article lacks any specific or realistic examples with any figures.
//Over time however, such a view lost its strength, it became a diluted shadow of its former self and many people even forgot about its existence - they had kids, brought them up in the UK, integrated.//
Look at the amount of funds going back to places like Pakistan - it has not lost much strength as you appear to be asserting. Some Muslims do think we can live here permanently - however you will always find some people who will believe anything
//The problem isn't that the general population is becoming racist. The problem is that we're all too damn lazy.//
So if the situation occurred, extremely unlikely though it is, and we got up and voted, what would change? The voting would no doubt remain as disparate as it currently is - it is fantasy to imagine everybody would vote how you would like them to - people vote how they choose and that is usually similarly to how the region votes... so the results wouldn't change significantly!
//The BNP can only gain real power if we carry on doing nothing. The first thing we can do is go out and vote. //
So the "bogeyman will get you" justification to go and vote...
I'd have thought the argument had got past such weak arguments... but obviously not!
Thank you for your feedback. I agree this is rather abstract and it is speculative. But it does address a tendency among Muslim communities to fear being "sent back home". If such a tedency didn't exist I wouldn't have written the above.
Whilst it is not accepted as mainstream, it is the policy of the BNP to deport non-whites. Yes, the BNP have a very small, if not miniscule, chance of gaining significant political power but they are making headways in certain areas - eg European elections, local elections. That's why people have their backs up again about being "kicked out".
However, it is not the policy of any political party to introduce "British Moderate Islam". There are Muslim in this country who have varying opinions. There are some who are against suicide bombings, for electoral participation and against giving women rights. Then there are others who support suicide bombings, are against electoral participation and for giving women rights. Then there are others whose opinions are in between (I've made massive generalisations, yes I know). The government seeks to support those who oppose suicide bombings, promote electoral participation and campaign for women's rights.
Just because a gov policy goes against what you believe in doesn't mean that it is mortally opposed to everything that you stand for.
PS no one has exclusivity on facades to cover up gruseome realities.
I'll be sure to add in facts and figures when I submit this article to Prospect magazine.
If more people vote the that would make the result a better reflection of people's opinions. The problem I am alluding to is where mainstream turnout is low, extreme parties can gain a larger share of the vote, and they therefore gain more credibility than would otherwise be due to them if all eligible voters had voted.
Of course, just because everyine votess doens't mean that extreme parties would be kept out all the time. If a region does genuinely become more racist and oppressive then would be reflected in the vote. But, things are not like that at the moment. Most people aare not racist, but if they don't vote to reflect their opinions then the racist parties gain a greater share of the vote. [/quote]
Why would places like Manchester and Oldham have Nick Griffin as their member of the European Parliament? Many people didn't vote in that election and so the bogeyman got them.
The tendency exists as the reality is that this is not our permanent homeland and can never be so - experiences in the lifetime of the older generation of Idi Amin or older historical experiences of the Spanish Inquisition mean that when a people live under a foreign government that is not their own govenrment such an unease will exist.
Nope - BNP policy is VOLUNTARY repatriation - something that already exists in sime form or other in a number of European states (including UK from recollection!).
I would kindly disagree - there is a tiny minority who get so angry with UK foreign policy to resort to suicide bombings. Bring me any significant Muslims in the UK who support you can target civilians via suicide bombings! This is more a scare tactic than anything else.
The government is advocating a moderate Islam - the leaked report that was received by the Guardian in February 2009 referred to as CONTEST 2 which seemed to explicitly address the ideological basis of Islam and received deep concern because it essentially widened the definition of an ‘extremist'. According to the strategy, Muslims would be considered extremists if:
* They advocate a caliphate, a pan-Islamic state encompassing many countries
* They promote Shari'a law
* They believe in jihad, or armed resistance, anywhere in the world. This would include armed resistance by Palestinians against the Israeli military
* They argue that Islam bans homosexuality and that it is a sin against Allah
* They fail to condemn the killing of British soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan
However, as the Muslims reacted with outrage to the details of CONTEST 2 (many stating that it essentially criminalised ideas) the government revoked the plan and is still implementing the PVE agenda.
Therefore, the evidence against the government is more than conclusive in relation to what it wishes to do with Islam and the reformation it wishes to instigate. It is quite possible that over the coming years, we may see a slow incremental progression towards the draconian objectives of CONTEST 2.
Furthermore, a look into history offers great insights that solidify the aforementioned argument as this is not the first attempt undertaken by Britain to change Islam. In 1857 the British East India Company faced uprisings in India which mobilised the masses and threatened to end British rule in India. Jihad had been officially declared on the British by the Ulema of Hind and faced with the prospect of defeat attempts to pacify Muslim opposition led the British Empire to turn to Mirza Gulam Ahmed who was leader of a small group of people who denied jihad.
Gulam said: "Behold! I have come to you people with a directive that henceforth jihad with the sword has come to an end but jihad for the purification of your souls still remains. This injunction is not from me but rather it is the will of God."
He forbade fighting the Empire due to his favor for British rule and support, in a letter to queen Victoria he said:"...For the sake of the British government, I have published fifty thousand books, magazines and posters and distributed them in this and other Islamic countries. It is as the result of my endeavours that thousands of people have given up thoughts of Jihad which had been propounded by ill-witted mullahs and embedded in the minds of the people. I can rightly feel proud of this that no other Muslim in British India can equal me in this respect..."
This attempt led to the British inventing a new faith and creating a new prophet, such a vain attempt gained no currency with the Muslim masses, instead hardening opposition to British colonialism.
The British government has used its counter terrorist strategy as a front to malign Islam and deal with the wider threat of a politicised community who continues to stand shoulder to shoulder with its brothers and sisters across the world. The ‘Prevent' agenda was always a front to create a reformation in Islam. The majority of the strategy aimed at Muslims in the UK, is to dictate to the Muslim community, establish a new leadership, make Muslims reject Islam's political ideas, and ultimately to secularise Muslims. It is the assimilation agenda - to prevent the spread of Islamic values - what they call ‘extremism' - and promote ‘shared,' Western liberal values.
Maybe you can provide some for us.
Where did that happen in the last elections? What implications has it/can it have, if any? This appears another speculative argument with no substance.
So where could Muslims have made a difference? Any figures, research, or is this just a speculative view?
What difference has an individual with extreme views made to UK politics, as we are asked to participate in UK elections? None.
What difference has he or can one individual make on any policy or legislation even in Europe? None.
This is little more than scare tactics to get Muslims to vote - participating in a process that is irrelevant and useless to Muslims.
Alternatives like MCB engaging directly with govt can be seen to be more fruitful - and the govt's direct engagement with Muslims makes sense. However, voting where we will get at best a tiny number of candidates, controlled by their party whip systems!, into parliament where they can determine no legislation is a waste of time in my opinion - other than build egos of corrupt individuals who do more damage than good - Shahid Malik, Khalid Mahmood, Sarwar and Khan come to mind - expense fiddles and immoral affairs and vat frauds in their companies! Great way to build public image for the Muslim community!
Yes, BNP does talk about voluntary repatriation. But if they were to ever get into power, I doubt there would much voluntary about it (other than people rushing for the nearest airport because things had become so bad).
That there are people in the UK who encourage suicide bombing is bad enough. No matter how significant or insignificant they are.
The government is understandably encouraging Muslims that it sees as moderate and trying to isolate those it sees as extremists.
As for the rest of your post, I'd rather not get into a cut-and-paste match. I tried to express my own opinion in the above article. I would love to have an honest debate with you – I'm sure I can learn a lot about your point of view. But I'm gonna need to know what you think personally.
I didn't do that much research for this.
If more people vote the the results of elections will be more reflective of public opinion. As long as turnout is low, election results will be skewed to reflect only the views of people who were most motivated to vote.
I don't think there were any areas in the last election where Muslims could have made a difference. Nor do I think that Muslims should form some block vote – they should just vote, that will be enough.
Nick Griffin is not sitting in the European parliament all on his lonesome twiddling his thumbs. He gets funding which he pumps back into his party to fight more elections and he fosters anti-Muslim sentiment across Europe. I would rather vote and not have such people representing the country I live in.
It is not just Muslims who should vote – the public generally needs to increase turnout at elections.
I would rather live in a state where the public has a say in who holds political power rather than a theocracy where speaking against those in power is akin to blasphemy.
Yes, there are flaw in the system and it's not perfect. But it allows criticism and is responsive to change – much more than a dictatorship or theocracy.
Pure speculation!
In fact, the BNP is the party that should be voted for if you encourage voting as they are the only party with the policy to pull troops back from Muslim lands and stop killing Muslims - isn't that the highest imperative in Islam? Or do you feel that it's ok to let Muslims be killed so long we have a comfortable luxurious life here? Luxury vs life?
So you cannot cite any Muslims who encourage sucicide bombing - looks like another scare tactic that has no reality.
The citation from the Guardian is relevant as it shows what the government genuinely believe to be extremism - and that is Islam itself! However it can hardly play divisory politics with Muslims using terrorists/moderates by throwing most into the opposite camp so has to think things through a little more carefully.
We should carefully consider the statements of Quran which explain the nature of kufr and the plots and plans of those in political authority against Muslims.
Our forefathers were fooled by the British - we should not fall for their divide and rule tactics again.
So how can you advocate an approach which has not been researched?
Again you've not answered my questions.
More people voting will proportionately reflect the voting patterns and is of little consequence unless you can show otherwise. However none who advocate voting can do that, let alone show it is permitted. Maybe you should consider this in depth critique of voting:
http://www.votinghalalorharam.blogspot.com/
Confirming my earlier conclusion, it is a waste of time.
So BNP can make no difference in Europe or UK - not a problem even though you perceive it to be.
In fact they would be better in power for Muslim life across the Muslim world and other countries where Britain is up to its exploitative tactics which you implicitly are endorsing by attacking BNP.
Hmmmm I thought this was an Islamic site and the article targetted at Muslims to vote and the benefits thereof - there appear to be none.
This is little more than rhetoric - maybe you should read the history of the society where you live and you will see that one can speak so long it does not affect the establishment or the system - if it does, habeus corpus goes out the window straight away as do other rights - this has happened a number of times in British history...
I'm not sure you are aware of the flaws - otherwise you would be aware that it is little more than a dictatorship with the elites controlling and manipulating the masses who think they have a say in decision making. Maybe you should read Manufacturing Consent which details the mechanisms whereby this is achieved.
The Islamic system of governance is a theocracy which you appear to be criticising - I would prefer that to man made systems as that is from Allah.
But then again if Britain withdraws from the world everything will be hunky dory and Muslims can go back to living with one another in peace.
My mistake. No Muslim has ever encouraged, celebrated or carried out a suicide bombing. That was not a citation from the Guardian. That was cut and pasted from a HT article that quoted the Guardian.It does not show what the gov 'genuinely believe'. It was a policy paper published two governments ago that was later revoked. Govs chop and change policy to fit the times/their needs.
I was countering an opinion with another opinion and we managed to get an article out of it. But at least it was my opinion – I didn't have copy and paste my thoughts from HT.I'm not going to go into the minutiae of the consequences of electoral participation. However, it is a good idea to get people to discuss, debate and exchange ideas. It is good that people get to have a say rather than be told what to say. And people should be able to turf out an entire government.
I didn't realise Nick Griffin was the Mahdi in disguise. He will free us from the oppressive British. As soon as the British leave Muslim lands the Muslims will be free of theft, drunkenness, rape, corruption, murder, greed, prostitution, homosexuality and all the other evils that the British have forced upon us. Would there be such a thing as habeus corpous in the HT utopia?
Manufacturing Consent? Noam Chomsky? Exactly. Someone who can live in a democratic system and criticise it. Chomsky is even studied in British schools. I don't see him being put on trial for treason or blasphemy any time soon.
But does it exist? Or are its attributes speculative? Men are going to have to put such a system in place. It's not a ready-made one-size-fits-all hand-me-down from history. Men will interpret it and implement it. I would prefer those men (and women, right?) to have popular legitimacy.
Nope - pure speculation as they have published their policies and you are having to resort to scaremongering about what they will do when they have made clear what they will do. Political parties die if they are shown to be intentionally and knowingly violating electoral promises or fabricating policies which they do not intend to keep.
BNP don't like Islam - however the point is, is not saving even one Muslim life more important than our comfort in Britain? Are you seriously arguing pulling troops back will not save lives? What other problems exist in the Muslim world require other actions - but it is dishonest to try to justify your voting tactics by conflating them with troop withdrawal.
Irrelevant - lives will be saved - and that makes it obligatory to do. Why is this site asking people to send aid to Palestine? Will it make the world hukny dory? Or is it one rule for one matter, and another for another matter.
The source was the Guardian and the policy paper was the contemplations of the current Labour govt. And of-course govts change policy - if they cannot demonise all Muslims in one go, they will do it piecemeal, forcing some to adopt "BritishIslam" whilst demonising a minority - if the majority don't secularise Islam, they too will be demonised. It is how capitalist govts like those in Britain have operated and do operate.
Maybe you should read and research other websites - it will open up your thinking and let you engage with broader ideas other than the incestuous ones you promote here whilst sloganising you want to encourage debate which you don't really want to.
Those posting on this site sadly have such animosity to other Muslims and groups and love the British govt - opposite to what Allah orders us to do. It is a shame.
I knew you'd have no response to this serious research - cheap slogans are not a response when one should be looking at substance.
Oh so it's ok for British troops to kill, torture, humiliate Muslims as there is crime there anyway. Thank you for that clarification. Next time someone rapes your mother or your sister, be happy - it's not a problem as there is crime here anyway.
As I said, cheap rhetoric and vitriole rather than any serious reply when your views are questioned...
If you bothered reading his analysis, he answers why dissenting views are permitted - when they look dangerous, they too are silenced!
The Islamic system of governance does exist - you appear not to have researched the field. From Abu Yusuf, Shaybani, Juwaini, Abu Yala, to Mawardi, Ibn Taymiyyah, all have written extensively on it or aspects of it.
Noone its saying one-size-fits-all - it comprises one size fits all rules as well as areas requiring ijtihad.
Finally, those who interpret it should not and do not require popular legitimacy - they require expertise and skills which you appear to not understand as you appear to be so overwhelmed with the rhetoric of "popular legitimacy".
I know if I question the notion of "popular legitimacy", you couldn't even justify it - simply having adopted this normative view from dominant foreign ideologies.
Corruption, lack of education, social decadence, feudalism, tribalism, sectarianism, poverty to name but a few. These problems aren't going to disappear as soon as America and Britain disengage from the Muslim world.
Your the one who started talking about troop withdrawal as a reason for voting BNP. Not me.
Lives will be saved? Is that you speculating now?
There is no guarantee that lives will be saved if Britain withdraws from Afghanistan. The Afghans are very likely to start fighting each other. But perhaps it would be better if Muslims were killing Muslims rather than non-Muslims killing Muslims.
Just having loads of different websites with the same cut and paste articles does not constitute 'opening up your thinking' or 'broadening your ideas'.
I do think HT are sophisticated and make a reasonable critique of western politics. I've always thought that. But that sophistication doesn't always carry through to the lower ranks.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them any less Muslim. And no, Allah does not 'order' us to hate Britain. I don't think the Quran allocates a position for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the love/hate spectrum. What was that about cheap rhetoric?It's not OK for British troops to kill, torture and humiliate Muslims. Nor is it OK for Muslims to kill, torture and humiliate Muslims. Nor is it OK for Muslims who support the Khilafat to kill, torture and humiliate Muslims who don't support the Khilafat. It's not OK for anyone to kill, torture or humiliate anyone.
P.S. Will the Khialafat outlaw the use of torture?
How will dissenting views be handled in the Khilafat?Written. They have written about it. It is a theoretical model. It does not exist in practice.
Points so far:
- You advocate supporting kufr parties that will kill muslims as there is already crime there and even if they don't kill muslims, muslims will do it themselves as per what happened in afghanistan. We can't trust the published manifestos of parties that will withdraw troops but can trust manifestos of those who say they will definitely kep the troops there!
Your argument self-refutes as well as displaying an ignorance of the fact that external powers were behind the conflict in Afghanistan since the soviets invaded (and even before!).
- Problems in the muslim world won't go away with withdrawal of foreigners.
Of-course they won't - their cause is the absense of the Islamic political system and the introduction of foreign kufr ideologies. It does not justify additional problems of foreign occupation.
- Khilafah is not a real system
It has been practiced for over a millenium, it has been detailed in the Quran and Sunnah, we have ijma al-sahabah on it and thousands of scholars endorsed it and lived by it as did Muslims - it is one of the most substantive areas of Islamic jurisprudence which has only been criticised since the demise of the Ottoman Caliphate by those with agendas against political Islam and its revival, wanting instead to keep Muslims divided by following foreign kufr ideologies that have no history amongst Muslims, their jurisprudence or culture.
- Allah does not require us to hate britain or kuffar or their ideologies (I assume!) yet we can hate muslims and attack them (as you have been doing?)
Maybe you can elaborate... and maybe you can explain what Allah and his messenger and the companions and scholars mean when they say (what can to a layman appear contradictory texts!):
Muhammad is the messenger of allah. And those with him are harsh against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… 48:29
And let not the hatred of a people, who (once) stopped your going to the Sacred Mosque, incite you to transgress. 5:2
Indeed there has been an excellent example for you (muslims) in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily we are free from you.. and whatever you worship besides Allah: we rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone 60:4
Ibn Kathir explains the meaning of Quran verse 60:4
"You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kin. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with proofs from Himself, and We will admit them to gardens through which rivers flow, and they with Him. They are the party of Allah. Verily, it is the party of Allah that will be the successful" (al-Mujaadilah 22)
The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you until you follow their religion.
“Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then hating it in his heart; and that is the weakest of faith.”
Ibn Ruwaha said "O Jews, By Allah, verily you are of the most hated of Allah's creations to me, but this [hatred] will not cause me to wrong you [i.e. deal with you unjustly]."
In a famous incident after the victory at Badr, the Muslims captured some Makkans and sought to ransom them. Mus’ab was passing by the ranks of prisoners and stopped when saw his brother, Abu Azeez ibn Umayr among them. However, instead of interceding on his behalf, he instructed his brother’s captor to bind him securely and to extract a large ransom for the prisoner, because “his mother is a very rich woman” When the brother sought to remind Mus’ab of his relationship, Mus’ab replied: I only recognize brotherhood of the faith, this man is my brother, not you!
“... true believers show animosity and hatred towards disbelievers and never support them.” - ibn Taymiyya, Book of Emaan
"The real purpose in levying jizya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that, on account of fear of jizya, they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honor and might of Islam." Ahmed Farooq al-Sirhindi
Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab said, "A Muslim is not right in his religion, even if he rejects everything other than Allah, unless he feels enmity towards the disbelievers and makes this known to them" as Allah says, "You will not find people who believe.. etc." (58:22)
Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Sura Al-Mumtahana: Verse 8
Multiculturalism is not about separation, ghettoisation or balkanisation. It is, instead, a recognition of both diversity and the need for common ground, mutual respect,and cultural engagement.
That was indeed the typical British bullshit any immigrant have had thrown on their face.
What the immigrants ask is not just social benefit and money from the government, but more human interaction and being respected as fellow human-beings. Hell if I can get more of these at the expense of paying more tax, I'd even do that. The sense of belonging doesn't come from money or other materialistic factors for that matter. How about treating people equally? For example like saying hi when walking past each other on streets instead of exclaiming "you steal our jobs"; or NOT rejecting a job applicant for being Asian/Mideast/African/Slavic? The sense of respect stems from the small gestures of people, the way they greet you and wants to know you as a person. Then again I can't blame the Brits cos they don't even show much intimacy towards each other.
It is easy to say" Go back to where you came from",but do not forget that British Muslims are actually born and educated here. They are in the unenviable position of trying to combine two diffent worlds. That is no easy.
A report by the Institute for Community Cohesion found that native parents were deserting some schools after finding their children out numbered by pupils from ethnic minorities. Schools in parts of England are becoming increasingly segregated. The study focused on 13 local authorities. Many of the schools and colleges are segregated and this was generally worsening over recent years. This is RACISM because British society is the home of institutional racism.
It is not just Muslims that feel isolated, it is also other faiths. I do not want to name any, but any religious person is bound to feel at odds with the society in which he lives, as each religion has its own habits and customs. Even Protestants feel at odds with the Catholic communities in Catholic countries and vice versa. I am sure that the Protestant expats living in the South of France or Spain (both Catholic communities) feel at odds in their environment. People should try to understand the minority communities. As I said before, it is better to let everyone have their own space, instead of interfering and seeing people of different faiths and cultures as a threat
God has created diverse human beings to live in this tiny global villageas of one family. Creation by its very nature is deverse with different species, different communities, different cultures and languages. These differences represent the beauty and wonder but diversity is sometimes not fully appreciated, resulting in all sorts of clashes. The British society and Establishment must learn to respect and accommodate others, as if in a family.
The western values suggest equality and freedom for all, that means society must allow religious freedom. The Jews and Christians have Kosher meat and Church schools, yet when Muslims simply ask for the very same teatment. the Islamphobic secular right wing jump up and down, screaming that somehow western values have been attacked. Last year, during protests against the attack on Gaza, a mixed group of demonstrators clashed with police. But when the alleged culprits were arrested in dawn raids, nearly all those taken were young Muslims
Sharia courts are for Muslim community not for any body else. The Jews through out Europe have their own religious courts. Similarly state funded Muslim schools are for Muslim children. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.
Bilingual Muslim children need bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. A bilingual teacher has the ability to teach bilingually and explain complex concepts to children who have limited understanding of English. Learning in their first language 'raises their self-esteem, self-respect and strengthens their identities in western culture.
A report has found that bilingual children are far more likely to get top-grades pass in all subjects. Too many schools miss out on the opportunity to ensure bilingual pupils develop their skills in languages other then English. Children using first language other than English have a some important academic advantages as this bilingualism enables children to develop cognitively. It can also improve 'intercultural understanding'.
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Before you dismiss any ideology as Kufr, look at the similarities between it and Islam. Does Islam support a tyranny? No. Does true Islam believe in peace, justice, consultation and representation, freedom of debate (not freedom to offend) etc...... Yes! So, if a democratic society can provide just some of that in theory, then should we not at least work with that system to try and make it better?
You know, a lot of people (General Zia, Wahab, Khomeni etc.) have cropped up saying that they want to impliment Sharia, most of the time it hasn't been Sharia at all, it's just been their non-credible and narrow "interpretation". It's complete unacceptable to support apathy, or coercion (as HT do).
The Ayahs and Hadiths are clearly taken out of their real context, which is why they seem to contradict the Quran or they way of Muhammed (pbuh).
You're mentioned a quote from Al-Wahab and co, but what they say is not the gospel truth, and it may not be from Islam (therefore:bidah).
I just want to share some wise words by Yassir Fazaga, because it is dangerous to jump to conclusions and believe everything a guy with a beard tells you.
"Blind faith, to a religious figure, is neither expected nor accepted in Islam."
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
Was the guy a ghair muqallid?
There has been historical acceptance in the Ummah that not everyone has the time or ability to learn everything and thus dealings and rulings of religious matters have been left to people who have been better qualified and this to an extent has involved blind following.
It's like accepting that the doctor knows more about medicine than you do.
(I will not respond to that older hmd's post as she was banned from the site and me arguing against her would just be a low blow.)
EDIT - wait I will respond to one. The one about Jizya being about humiliation. I think it was banu Tabgil or something that during the reign of Hadhrat Umar (ra) did not want to pay the jizya. Hadhrat Umar cerated a new tax, iirc "Sadaqa Sistani" which was paid by them instead of jizya. More, not every non Muslim had to pay it in an islamic state - those that participated in the empire through eg joining the military did not have to pay it. From there it can be judged that the purpose was not to humiliate, but to make people participate.
Yes, people have historically come to conclusions over why some things are and how they should be, but that does not make their views always right.
(does this mean that i could not help myself and I went for the low blow?)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I'm not giving a fatwa Admin, I'm not the first to say what I have.
Which guy? Wahab or Fazaga? If you mean Wahab, I'm just saying that his word should not be taken at face value; if you mean Yassir Fazaga then these are just words of wisdom.
“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”
Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi
I agree with most of what you said - especially that while scripture is above our question, the way people interpret can be less than perfect. An example is the rape laws in Pakistan - they do not comply with how rape was dealt with under earlier Islamic periods, yet you will get (or got, when the laws were changed) many people condemning those that try to change them to be more humane.
The last quote by Yassir Fazagga made me question him to an extent as madhabs and taqleed are exactly that.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
if we were in you native countries building churches are you saying you would not kick us out burn down the churches try to kill use lets get one thing stright you are the represors you are the hostil ones
They will do if we keep asking for Sharia law
My English is not very good
Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a mainstream curriculum. More faith schools will be opened under sweeping reforms of the education system in England. There is a dire need for the growth of state funded Muslim schools to meet the growing needs and demands of the Muslim parents and children. Now the time has come that parents and community should take over the running of their local schools. Parent-run schools will give the diversity, the choice and the competition that the wealthy have in the private sector. Parents can perform a better job than the Local Authority because parents have a genuine vested interest. The Local Authority simply cannot be trusted.
The British Government is planning to make it easier to schools to “opt out” from the Local Authorities. Muslim children in state schools feel isolated and confused about who they are. This can cause dissatisfaction and lead them into criminality, and the lack of a true understanding of Islam can ultimately make them more susceptible to the teachings of fundamentalists like Christians during the middle ages and Jews in recent times in Palestine. Fundamentalism is nothing to do with Islam and Muslim; you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim.
There are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society. Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and demands.
None of the British Muslims convicted following the riots in Bradford and Oldham in 2001 or any of those linked to the London bombings had been to Islamic schools. An American Think Tank studied the educational back ground of 300 Jihadists; none of them were educated in Pakistani Madrasas. They were all Western educated by non-Muslim teachers. Bilingual Muslim children need bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. A Cambridge University study found that single-sex classes could make a big difference for boys. They perform better in single-sex classes. The research is promising because male students in the study saw noticeable gains in the grades. The study confirms the Islamic notion that academic achievement is better in single-sex classes.
Iftikhar Ahmad
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
The title remains very sensationalist and it takes away from real issues.
I think that recently the UK has become a lot less tolerant.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
We live in a shrunken world and millions of people are on the move; one of our biggest challenges is how we learn to live in proximity to difference – different skin colours, different beliefs and different way of life. According to a study by COMPAS, Muslims born and educated were given the impression of outsiders. The perception among Muslims is that they are unwelcome in Britain is undermining efforts to help them integrate into wider society. Most of them say that they have experienced race discrimination and religious prejudice. Muslims and Islam is promoted a fundamentalist and separatist by the western elite, which have negative impact on community and social cohesion. The number of racist incidents occurring in London Borough of Redbridge’s schools have reached their highest levels since record begin.
Anyone who has ever glanced at the newspaper section of a supermarket knows what the press do to immigrants. They libel them, abuse them, humiliate them and stoke up resentment against them. It's been that way my entire life. After studying 58,000 articles in every national newspaper in Britain – over 43 million words – researchers found the word most closely associated with 'immigrant' was, you guessed it, 'illegal'. It almost trips off the tongue. Even for those of us on the other side of the debate the two words feel intimately connected, like 'pub' and 'pint' or 'library' and 'book'. One goes with the other. For tabloids, other words closely associated with 'immigrant' were 'coming', 'stop', 'influx', 'wave', 'housing' and 'sham'.
The press knows what it's doing. It's demonising immigrants. Its aim is to make us think of them as less than human beings. They are not humans, they are immigrants. And soon they won't even be that. They'll be 'illegals'. And then you won't have to worry about them at all anymore.
Immigrants are the creators of Britain new wealth, otherwise, inner cities deprived areas could not get new lease of life. The native Brits regard such areas as ghettoes. Integration is not religious and cultural, it is economic and Muslims are well integrated into British society and at the same time they are proud of their Islamic, linguistic and cultural identities, inspite of discrimination they have been facing in all walks of life. According to UN, 80% of British Muslims feel discriminated. They are less burden on social services. Immigrants made up 8.7% of the population, but accounted for 10.2% of all collected income tax
A report by the Institute for Community Cohesion found that native parents were deserting some schools after finding their children out numbered by pupils from ethnic minorities. Schools in parts of England are becoming increasingly segregated. The study focused on 13 local authorities. Many of the schools and colleges are segregated and this was generally worsening over recent years. This is RACISM because British society is the home of institutional racism. My statement regarding Muslim schools where there is no place for non-Muslim child or a teacher is based on educational process and not on racism. Muslim children need Muslim teachers during their developmental periods. For higher studies and research, Muslim teacher is not a priority.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Muslims will never get reformed; if somebody expect their reformation, they are wrong. Islam is evil, and it destorys world. It is high time world leaders must unite to deal with Islam and Muslims. They produce children like rabits from several women, give talak and get more women, produce more and more children....these children became terrorists.
According to the Holy Quran, all children are born Muslims, it is their parents who make them Jew, Christian or others. This is one of the many reasons why now western peoples are reverting to Islam on their own free will. Through out the history, Muslims never forced non-Muslims to accept Islam. This is the main reason why Muslims lost Spain and India.
Muslim ruled India for about 1000 years. They never used force to convert Hindus. I wish they should have used force for conversion. They made a blunder for not ding so. Spain was ruled by Muslims for 800 years. Now India and Spain would be a Muslim countries. I know it is against the teaching of Islam. But for political reasons, I think that Muslim should have forced Indians to become Muslims. You know that politics is a dirty game.
The beauty of Islam is that it is a religion which appeals to common sense. There is no blind belief or dogmatism in Islam. The fundamentals of Islam are simple, straightforward and easy to understand.
If Islam is so bad, then why is it the WORLD’S FASTEST GROWING RELIGION! It is also one of the youngest religions. However no matter how hard everyone tries to give Islam a bad name, it will be twice as more populated. So let’s get straight to the point yeah?, Basically Islam is the most hated religion I don’t know why hmm maybe because it is also the most fastest growing religion and 2nd largest but no one will be able to stop this religion from growing.
Islam is the fastest growing faith in Britain. Hundreds and thousands of Brits are reverting to Islam. By the middle of this century, over half of Brits would be Muslims.
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of
its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to
possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which
can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him – the wonderful man
and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the
saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the
dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems
in a way that would bring it the much
needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad
that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to
be acceptable to the Europe of today.” [G.B. Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM,
Vol. No. 81936.]
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
I hope so! You have nothing to do in a civilised world and Islam needs to leave Europe as soon as possible. People will wake up more and more and we will see that day when they stand up and fight for their City, their Country and the rest of the western world against Islam - the biggest threat since the Nazis.
And now in 2016 we have Donald Trump.
FAR RIGHT now have even more confidence and determination…
We have to unite or muslims and minorities will be good bye.
(OBAMA with his invasion on Libya and Syria created the refugee crisis, yet muslims are seen as the terrorists)
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