Med's mentioned Kashmir many times - I believe if i'm not mistaken you said you are Kashmiri, or you have relatives there.
I am not familiar with Kashmir past or present so i'll just post the wikipedia article and yall can add and refute anything you don't agree with.
Also post news from Kashmir here - i'm interested in the region and know virtually nothing about it.
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[size=24][b]Kashmir[/b][/size]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Kashmir is a region between the northern part of South Asia and the southern part of Central Asia. The term Kashmir historically described the valley just to the south of the westernmost end of the Himalayan mountain range. Politically, however, the term 'Kashmir' describes a much larger area which includes the regions of Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh.
The main "Valley of Kashmir" is relatively low and very fertile, while magnificent breathtaking mountains, fed by streams flowing from adjoining valleys, are found on the rest of the Kashmiri landscape. It is renowned as one of the most spectacularly beautiful places in the world.
Srinagar, the ancient capital, lies alongside Dal Lake and is famous for its canals and houseboats. Srinagar (alt. 1,600 m. or 5,200 ft.) acted as a favoured summer capital for many foreign conquerors who found the heat of the north Indian plains in summer oppressive. Just outside the city are the beautiful Shalimar,Nishat and Chashmashahi gardens created by Mughal emperors.
The region is currently divided amongst three countries: Pakistan controls the northwest portion (Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir), India controls the central and southern portion Jammu and Kashmir, the Siachen Glacier is controlled by both India and Pakistan, and the People's Republic of China controls the northeastern portion (Aksai Chin and the Trans-Karakoram Tract). Though these regions are in practice administered by their respective claimants, India has never formally recognized the accession of the areas claimed by Pakistan and China. India claims that these areas, including the area ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963 (the Trans-Karakoram Tract) are a part of its territory, while Pakistan claims the region excluding Aksai Chin and Trans-Karakoram Tract. Both countries view the entire Kashmir region as disputed territory, and do not consider each other's claim to be valid. An option favoured by many Kashmiris is independence, but both India and Pakistan oppose this for various reasons. Because of this Kashmir is considered one of the world's most well-known territorial disputes, and most Western made maps use a dotted-line to indicate the territory's uncertain boundaries. United Nations general assembly unanimously voted in 1948 for a plebescite in Kashmir to settle the issue. All parties agreed to it but India later on backed out claiming that kashmiri people have taken part in elections and therefore plebesite is no more required. Kashmiri people and Pakistan challenge this claim and several wars have broken out after India's back out.
The rest of this article will, for the sake of clarity, refer to the parts of Kashmir administered by India, Pakistan and China as "Indian Kashmir", "Pakistani Kashmir", and "Chinese Kashmir" respectively. By this nomenclature, the word "Kashmir" in "Indian Kashmir" is used in a general sense to refer to what India calls "Jammu and Kashmir".
[i]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir[/i]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Kashmir_map.jpg...
Also what do you think of the violence in Kashmir - is it justified... unjustified - are aspects of it justified and others not?
Kashmir.
I had expected Med to dish out the fact.
Under the British Raj I believe it was semi autonomous.
At the end of the british colonisation the understanding of the muslims was that it was to be handed to pakistan as the partition was done amongst religious lines.
All four paths were also to be a part of pakistan.
Just before independence, he map was redrawn, giving India a route to kashmir aswell, leaving pakistan with three.
At handover time, the ruler/what he was called of kashmir signed kashmir over to India.
Here was the first war between india and pakistan. The thing was that britain was supplying the army for both sides. The british general on te pakistan side ordered his troups to the barracks, as he did not want british on british foghting. Pakistan still amnaged to have some fo Kashmir.
In 1960 India was at war against china. China was an ally of pakistan. China dfeated India, and ionvited pakistan to take Kashmir. Pakistan declined. (btw, China also has a bit of kashmir in it...)
Around 1967 had managed to virtually take over kashmir using various means. As a response, India invaded Pakistan, going for the Jugular. Lahore. (you can see the border when you are landing at lahore airport...)
Pakistan managed to repel India, and gain large swathes of land. and also managed to gain the majority iof Kashmir. but a large part of the Pakistani army was captured. It was decided to return to 1947 boders for undisputed borders, and for Kashmir hold a Plebiscite (sp?), which was backed by the UN.
The 1973 war was over bangladesh, where with the help if India Bangladesh split from pakistan. Mainland Pakistan had treated Bangadesh as a second class province.
The plebiscite has still not been carried out, andd India is of the position that various negotiations since have since invalidated the call.
There has always been a struggle between the separatists and the Indians over kashmir. This rarely involves targetting civillians, but the 700,000 strong indian army that is present in Kashmir. (Just think there are only 120,000 americans in Iraq...)
According to Indian figures over 60,000 militants were killed in Kashmir in the 90's.
I personally broadly support the freedom fighters. If 60,000 are killed, and there are plenty more, it cannot be IMO fueled from abroad, but it must be an insurgency borne and led inside the state.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
700,000 [i]in[/i] Kashmir?!
That's like 9 divisions!
So basically it sounds like the sovereign went one way - the people went another, the brits exploited both - foreign powers further exploited and a few blood baths later we have a complete nightmare on our hands.
Why doesn't the UN step in? Two nuclear powers in a tinderbox just isn't going to cut it.
Incidentally why does India was Kashmir? You said they are majority muslim, so obviously there cannot be that great cultural integration given the region, does it have a lot of natural resources or something?
India has ALOT of problems under the hood.
There are alot of places that want independence.
If one leaves, it may open the floodgates.
The sikh's want their khalestan. Ghe gujarat's may also want to be free... and there are a few others aswell.
The last government of BJP (now it is congress) was a religious extremist party. It also stoked alot of tension. It had won the leections in 97/98 on two pledges: 1. India would go nuclear. 2. Pakistan will be destroyed. (or that may have been Pakistan's desire to want Kashmir? I am sure it was the former.... all of thisis off the top of my head...)
and why do you think Pakistan and alot of analysts laughed at India when it said pakistan was infiltrating Kashmir? (I can remember hearing the line multiple times... what are their troops doing? having a picnic? ) Pakistan also has a massive deployment through kashmir (about 100,000, or in start of 2002 when there was about to be war, about 300,000).
The UN has a single resolution on this matter. A plebiscite. A free vote for all citizens of Kashmir.
And there is no oil in the region. Besides it is keeping two countries preoccupied. And both Uk and the US are getting a massive sales of arms to both sides.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Most Kashmiris don’t identity themselves as Pakistani, Kashmir want’s it’s own sovereignty and not ruled by India nor Pakistan. The country is caught in between a huge political tug of war between to old foes
There is that aswell.
However from my understanding not many people are on that side...
though I may be wrong.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Wow... I never thought India was so fractured.
And meanwhile they are having this cultural boom in Punjab and much of the rest of India.
Kinda sounds like Rennaissance Italy
India is positively HUGE.
99.9% is in the doldrums.
There is a very small part that is having nay boom whatsoever.
The rest voted Congress.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
It seems like the concept of nationalism really never caught on in much of the former British Empire.
All these various very small ethnic groups want their own countries from mespotamia to china
I would recommend reading the [b]Army of Medina in Kashmir[/b]- if you could find the book that is.
The Hind Nationalists are the 21st century equivalent of what the Nazi’s where in Germany, like any regional super power they are not prepared to give up Kashmir (independence) and especially not to Pakistan, they have oppressed the Muslim majority in Kashmir. Both sides are guilty of failing the Kashmir’s.
It was probably because people were fighting for independence... and the british leacy is not really all that good.
In mesopotamia if a tribe/village was late in paying taxes, Winston Churchill, the governor, was in favour of using chemical warfare... dropping chemical weapons on these villages.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I take it you didn't learn that in public school
I'll look for it - but it sounds like the classic war not on your own turf scenario.
Two armies fighting each other on land that really isn't either of theirs.
There is a word for this...
what was the word...
Imperialism!
Nope...
I learn't it by watching 'Bremner Bird and Fortune: Between Iraq and a hard place!'
It Rory brmner is an impressionist (probably the best), and the comedy was spot on. All three are clever, and manage to get a laugh by just stating facts...
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
The book is highly critical of the Pakistan and the Indian government, in it's failing to resolve the Kashmir dispute, and the author is a Mujahideen
lol yea I imagine the faults of the greatest Briton aren't exactly readily available for public investigation.
He isn't involved in any terrorist activities or attacking civilians though right?
I doubt it.
In kashmir the violence is almost exclusively militant on soldier adn vice versa.
Some say that the army uses civillians... but I would not fully rely on that as the reports are not exactly impartial... even though they are plentiful.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Only the Hindu Army. Verily they are the enemies of Islam, covers allot of history of the region and if you like geography provides extensive geographic information and why Kashmir is important strategically to both Pakistan and India.
I do like geography actually! What aspect of it is strategic to pakistand and india?
Looks like one big mountain range off the wikipedia picture
That's surprising considering such large garrisons... any time there are garrisons there is a general abuse of the populous.
Though it is strange that the larger the garrison - the less the abuse.
From wikipedia: The main "Valley of Kashmir" is relatively low and [b]very fertile[/b], while magnificent breathtaking mountains, fed by streams flowing from adjoining valleys, are found on the rest of the Kashmiri landscape. It is renowned as one of the most spectacularly beautiful places in the world.
Kashmir is important to both countries for it’s agricultural benefits and could potentially be a tourist hotspot, if not for the ongoing violence, Kashmir would be prospering
Its more than the fertility of the land.
The water supply for both countries runs through kashmir.
For pakistan it is also the completionof Pakistan... the k in Pakistan was suposed to be kashmir... and the vision was the muslims be united...
For india its about being seen as a strong country. If Kashmir separates, alot of other regions will also want autonomy. And then there is pride. Some indians to this day cannot accept the existence of pakistan.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
1. Prepartition Kashmir was a princely state.
2. The princely states in Indo-Pak were given a choice by the british whether to accede to India or Pakistan - the princes obviously wanted to remain autonomous but this was an option not offered.
3. Kashmir is muslim majority but the ruling elite were hindu - i think the son of the devils name who was incharge was Hari Sing but I cant recall for definite.
4. The Pakistani leadership headed by Jinnah were too complacent. Jinnah famously stated that Kashmir is a ripe fruit that will just fall into the lap of Pakistan.
5. Kashmirs Hindu ruler dillydallyed about his options. The Indian version is that he finally signed a document acceding to India and the next day India deployed in troops.
It is more realistic and inline with the facts that Indian began deploying troops in Kashmir one day and at most 2 days before the document of accession was signed. India ILLEGALLY occupied kashmir.
6. Pakistan army was under leadership of British, it was virtually non-existant. The arms stores, barracks and main army regions were left in ganges plane in india. Pakistan army was weak. And british leader of Pak army would not have his soldiers fighting the British Indian counterparts.
The Pathan tribes sent in Holy Warriors to the valley and secured areas for Pakistan.
7. There were other princely states in India including Hyderabad in the souh. Here the role was reversed - leadership were Muslims, and the population was a fairly even mix of Hindu and Muslim. India sent in army there. There was also another princely state beginning with J but for the life of me I cant remember it. and india basically did same there.
8. India invaded KASHMIR illegally. Pakistan's embryoninc leadership were incompetent and it is their lazy attitude that has resulted in Kashmir being what it is today rather than an integral part of Pakistan.
Infact pork eating, alcohol imbibing Jinnah was told by the British to stop the Pathan Tribals from entering kashmir and securing Pakistans interests there. Jinnah dutifully obeyed.
9. Kashmir they say is Paradise on Earth:
aaj woh kashmir hai mahkoom o majboor o faqeer,.
kal jissey ahle nazar kehte the jannat e sagheer.
Today that Kashmir is subdued, and desperate weak
Yesterday the People of Insight called it Mini Paradise.
10. The Hindus will perish in kashmir. inshaALLAH. May our eyes be cooled. ameen
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Med didn't you mention once that you are Kashmiri or have relatives there?
Yes. But the I come from the portion of kashmir that is free. Azad Kashmir.
We have some distant relatives who live very close to LoC but they dont let me go there, they think I might accidentally on purpose cross over.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Are you presently there or do you live somewhere else?
I live in UK bruv.
and I would also recommend the book :
Army of Madinah in Kashmir
by Esa al Hindi, top book.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
I'll definitely check it out then - this is the same book that Shazan recommended correct?
So here's the 50 million dollar question - do you think the crisis in Kashmir will ever abate?
Is there a time that Kashmiris can point back to that hindus and muslims actually got along
...in Kashmir itself, or generally across India?
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