"Seraphim" wrote:

I understand, perhaps such complex phrases are wasted on you. Since you're new to english. But if you insist on satisfying your own ego in constantly challenging me you may want to try raising the bar alittle... atleast so you can see above it.

Tomorrow when i am fresh, i will but for tonight i will like to leave you with the bitter taste of an unsatisifed ego.(which i referred to you as having a large one but you seem to direct that at me now)

cup of tea anyone?

Quote:

[b]Teddy insult teacher due in court[/b]

A British teacher charged in Sudan with insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs is due to appear in court later.

Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, will appear at a court in Khartoum and, if convicted, could face a prison sentence, a fine or 40 lashes.

...But Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a [b]Western plot against Islam[/b].

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7118245.stm[/url]

Quote:

[b]Gibbons has been in custody for three days since parents complained that she had allowed pupils at the private Unity High school to name the bear Mohammed.

She allowed boys and girls as young as six to name the bear Mohammed several months ago.

Officials at the Christian-run school say the bear was named after a vote by the pupils.
[/b]

[url]http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/786DE218-7868-4CCB-B34E-B85450133...

If they're going to be stupid about this and punish the teacher, surely they should punish the kids too.

This is silly for two reasons:

1./ If someone names a teddy bear with the most common name in their own country, it is likely to be used generically rather than as a symbolic referance.

2./ The teddy bear was an object of affection and they were kids, go figure.

To seraph, i am fresh and raring to go:
The man hav' th no shame in a losing a battle of words
pride has endulged thou mind and turned you it a man who speak'eth no truth and turned thee dilarious
The warrant I have of your honourable disposition, this was my perception but tis changed it has you are not worthy of this
and if people like yourself where to take over the world undoubtedly a famine would be created with thee abundance lies which you speak of
Perception of mere mortals isnt honour but blindness
vague and vulgur deception of the truth vigorously bubbling until one find the the truth and implodes it upon the people

This my friend is poetry, where yours is mere words of great respect on there own but together they are nothing

The Prophet said that Paradise is promised to someone who leaves an argument EVEN WHEN HE KNOWS HE IS IN THE RIGHT!!

something for you both to bare in mind...

"Ya'qub" wrote:

The Prophet said that Paradise is promised to someone who leaves an argument EVEN WHEN HE KNOWS HE IS IN THE RIGHT!!

something for you both to bare in mind...

the truth will always prevail inshallah

YES INSHALLAH

Quote:

[size=14]Crowds of people have marched in Sudan's capital Khartoum to call for a tougher sentence for a British teacher imprisoned for insulting religion.

[b]Some reports said protesters had called for her to be shot. Her lawyer said she was later moved for her own safety.

According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".[/b][/size]

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm[/url]

If the teacher was a Muslim, I don't think this would've happened.

I agree.

However, at the same time...isnt she guilty even under our own law of "incitement to religious hatred"?

Even if it is out of ignorance - much like the guys who were arrested for inciting religious hatred when they protested dressed as suicide bombers outside the embassy over the danish cartoon issue.

But the thing is that the guys actively did something to get arrested, but teacher didn't actively do anything, she just allowed the children to name the teddy Muhammad.

So if you look at it this way, shouldn't the police who were at the demonstration be arrested for allowing the people dressed as suicide bombers to demonstrate. Does that make sense?

They may have not thought anything of it.

Same goes for the teacher, she might have not thought anything of it.

There has been more denigration of prophet Muhammad saw by other human beings named Muhammad. How many times have i watched Crimewatch UK and seen some criminal with the name Muhammad. THATS more insulting to me. Naming a teddy bear Muhammad doesnt mean the prophet saw. Its just a name, the same way a parent names their child Muhammad.

Allahu alam.

I think this is absolutely riddiculous, this has given ammo to papers like the sun to make rubbish claims of what islam is about. If you watched "have i got news for you?" you would have realised how much of a joke they think it is and personally i dont disagree. I dont believe she had any intention what so ever of slandering islam and shes being punished.

I think that Sudan has every right to do whatever it wishes as long as it follows its own rule of law.

Since it has done this, then I don't think foreigners have any right to demand anything.

I do not think a person should go/be allowed into a country unless they are willing to obey the laws of that land.

Yes, boohoo the punishment is (probably?) harsh for a little mistake, but their law is their law.

Better to get 15 days for that mistake than getting 15 years for the mistake of having a bookmark to a website that analyses different Islamic movements, some of which are not so wholesome...

I find it both wrong and hypocritical to demand that Sudan changes its laws and practices to better apply with British commonsense.

She should have "integrated" herself with the Sudanese. Learnt their sensibilities and customs.

If we did something that upset the general public in the UK, that would be demanded of us - mistake or no

Ignorance is not always bliss.

Think about it she wasnt exactly going to look through the sudanese law about naming teddy bears. Isnt islam all about intentions? sureley her intentions werent bad just a misunderstanding.

This is not about Islam, but Sudan.

Do they have a right to their own laws and practices?

Or are we Brits all high and mighty and allowed to trample over the customs practices and laws of other countries almost willy nilly?

why can we challenge them?

We do not live there. We do not have the right to demand that they change their laws and customs to better fit in with our opinions.

They can and should do what they feel is right.

If they had a law which was being broken, then yes, we could show support for the people/legal system by requesting that they follow due procedure.

Here, what makes those who demand change any different from Mr Bush and Mr Blair, who did the same but with a little more force?

No Brits should challenge this ruling. They should first look into their own backyard.

If we demand change from the Sudanese, does that also mean that it was right when Britain demanded that the Saudi's release a couple of murdering british nurses? (and they got their way)

Why are they embarrassing to the Muslim world? Did the Muslim world implement them? no. The Sudanese legal and political system did.

Why can people challenge over guantanamo? because not only are they themselves are suffering from its hands but it also goes against American law. (and I did make that exception in my original case too.)

(Imaginary) Next week: Protest to demand that south Koreans stop eating dogs. You coming along? why not? Eating dogs is also haraam.

But we allow the south Koreans to their laws. Just like we should allow Sudan to its laws. and 15 days in a 5star hotel is not even a major sentence.

Overblown crap is what I call it. Stop jumping on bandwagons.

Where is the protest at the lack of aid being given to Bangladesh? That affects far more people than this in far greater ways, but it is just not as sexy a bandwagon. Afterwards we can't say "we are the same as other non muslim brits. We are peace loving. Really. Honest. You gotta believe me. please?"

If you listen to Lord Nazir on TV - who has taken the initiative and gone to Sudan over this - even he is not "demanding" an immediate release. He is telling them what the feeling is in the uk and showing concern hoping for a presidential pardon - working within the system rather than asking for revolution.

Erm what is this the official lets have an argument thread.. :shock:

It is a minor disagreement.

Erm Admin, what they have done IS embarrassing to the Muslim world - regardless of where they live.

Didnt 9/11 bear implications for EVERY muslim all over the world.

And cos once again we're in the spotlight we need to be speaking out against this.

And regarding Sudans laws...what law exactly has she broken?

no idea. It is for their judiciary to decide.

I didnt think she meant to insult Islam intentionally. Islam is constantly in the media, she was teaching Muslims kids in a Muslim country, what was she thinking when she let the kids name the teddy Muhammad. Every teacher is responsible for the action of her kids, if a child is injured due to no fault of the teacher the blame will lie with the teacher. Same here even though she didn’t name the teddy she has to take the blame. I think if they execute her thats taking it too far. Take the 40 lashes and do the time (maybe Allah (swt) might show her some mercy on the day of judgement). Admin does make a good point who are we to tell other countries what they can and cannot do.
If this had happened in America and the teacher was being lashed/imprisoned would Britain have got involved? No because Britain wouldn’t have two legs to stand on if it dare spoke up to America. We speak against Sudan and its law because Britain knows they (Sudan) cant do anything.

And another thing our loyalty lies with Muslims NOT the non believers.

The prophet had to put up with all sorts of terrible insults throughout his life. He was stoned in Mecca but made du'aa for Allah (swt) to forgive them. In Taif he was chased out of the town, fearing for his life. But again he made du'aa for the ignorant oppressors. A Jewish lady routinely through her rubbish on him and he never said a harsh word against her. In fact he visited her when she was sick, and she ended up embracing Islam.

I think the best thing for us to do is to make du'aa for everyone who insults the Prophet by saying horrible things about him or mocking him, and also make du'aa for everyone who insults the Prophet by doing horrible things to other people and claiming that they are acting in the name of Islam.

In the end, all punishment and reward is with Allah (swt). We are all guilty of sins. Imam al-Ghazali said (something along the lines of) a true believer sees good in everyone he looks at, while a hypocrite sees faults in everyone he looks at.

so naz r u suggesting muslims who happen to think whats happening in sudan is unjust and immoral,are in effect being disloyal to those muslims calling for this teachers death?, if so i'm disloyal.

I don't think we're supposed to be loyal to other muslims just coz they are Muslim by default. If muslims do something wrong we should not be loyal to them, its like applauding their wrong actions i/eif they commit a crime. We should make them see the wrong they have done,if we can't do that the very least we can do is i dunno verbally speak out, or make dua for them. Keeping quiet surely makes us guilty.

I don't think this case has anything to do with sharia law, or islam,if it does then to my mind its an act of extremism in faith which our prophet abhorred and warned us against.

my humble view is that its a politcal game. Of recent many countries in the west have ridiculed Islam,blasphemed it, insulted, humiliated, tortured and killed those who follow the faith. What comes to mind are the satirical cartoons concering our prophet (SaW). I think the sudanese are sadly using this poor teacher as a political football for some sense of i duno retribution, power trip,warning to the west?

"yashmaki" wrote:

I don't think we're supposed to be loyal to other muslims just coz they are Muslim by default. If muslims do something wrong we should not be loyal to them, its like applauding their wrong actions i/eif they commit a crime.

There was hadith saying " you should make 99 excuses for a brother before you find one fault" im not sure were this is from.