Silence

Who has to do more?

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Sorry I was a bit mind swept.

Muslims have to do more, be more vocal, more outspoken. Show those people that have lost loved ones that Islam never condones violence like this. 

Fred's Feet

No we shouldn't do more. We do enough of this, it's not our fault that it's fallen on deaf ears. People should try to overcome their ignorance instead of assuming 1.6 BILLION people are responsible for what a minority do. There's also no reason why we should apologise and continuously explain ourselves, again, for it to only fall on deaf ears. Those who want to hear and understand, do. But, anyway, we'll continue to "do more" despite the fact we shouldn't need to, and it will continue to go unnoticed by the vast majority of the population. 

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

Do you know how many people have been murdered in IRaq and Syria the past week?

Do you know how many of them were by French, British, American bombs and places etc?

Do you know how many residents of these people even know that we are waging war in other parts of the world?

I did not kill anyone, nor did I encourage anyone to do so. It is not my responsibility to apologise.

This website and the people on it (Muslim and Non Muslim) have been clear in standing against terrorism and educating others.

But no, I do not "have to do more".

What have you done to prevent us (yes, even me) from becoming targets of these terrorists? have you taken action to try your own government from warmongering, waging war?

Just because British soldiers are not coming home in body bags it doesn't mean that Britain is not waging war and that there are no risks to us due to it.

After saying all that, thank you for being understanding and realising that those that carry out these acts do not represent us all.

A problem with asking for Muslims to "do more" is that it ignores the education and attempts to fight such ideologies that currently do exist. These processes will not take in the mainstream media because the mainstream media is there to tell others "look, we are doing something!" instead of doing it.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

My point is not to tell the press how 'sorry' you are, because any one with a modicum of intelligence can see that it is not your responsibility to apologise nor should that brush that tars so many be waved wholesale, across Islam. 

My friend Islam is a way of life that 1.6 billion people have been born into or have reverted to. The issue for me is not appeasing the so called leaders of this world, but much more so about defending wholeheartedly a religion that has continually been tarnished by people with an alterior motive. You cannot attack people that are 'outside' of Islam as vehemently as some have for insulting Islam when people that claim to be Muslim are degrading and abusing Islam from the 'inside'.

 

Fred's Feet

To be quite frank I find your attitude lacking. I do not and never have voted for a government that will never represent me I protest, I write, I petition, I challenge. I am more than aware of the mindless and indiscriminate bombing of civilians around the world .

No one has suggested that you apologise, so I can't see where you got the idea that I did. I think that preventing any one from becoming a target is just an impossible dream. And for you to say that ' I did not kill anyone' is just the kind of attitude that resolves nothing. 

My point was that these creatures are a minority, that needs to be eradicated. This ideology is deep set and dangerous in a lot of minds. These people kill Muslims too, I have seen and heard a lot more open condemnation of insults to Islam by non-Muslins than against these animals who are giving the anti-Islam propaganda machine all the fuel it needs to berate Islam. These people are enemies of Islam.

Fred's Feet

I am not going to comment on who is to blame for the killings in Paris. There will be plenty of people saying “blame the Muslims.” Plus plenty of Muslims saying, “ISIS is not Islam, also if the west was not involved in Muslim countries killing innocent Muslims? There would not be any need to attack the west”.

Up to a point I agree the west has killed innocent people [I hate the term collateral damage] but from what I can see Muslims are quite capable of killing Muslims [I am not going into the Sunni v Shiite debate] Iran v Iraq war killed many Muslims that war was based on political ideology not religion. In that war the west did try to keep out of the conflict, happy to let both side fight, technically we leaned towards Saddam as a counter-balance to Iran. But so long as the oil kept flowing and profits were still to be made. This plus the fact that most of the killing was between Muslims and on Muslim land? Let them get on with it was the policy adopted.

This brings me to ISIS/Dash or what ever you want to call it. First of all it is nothing to do with Islamic religion [though its ideas are very similar to the Wahhabi sect of Islam. No doubt someone may contradict me.] ISIS is purely acting in the way people who are selfish strong willed have done for millennia. They follow the three P’s principle?

What are the three P’s? Politics, Power and Profit. These three things have caused most of the wars in humankind history.

In this case Politics = ISIS’s [ideology] or view of how they see Islam. In the first instance they will discuss reasonably what their views are. So as to persuade people to join them.

Next comes Power = ISIS’s use of killing, mutilation etc to instil fear and obedience in the people who just happen to be unfortunate to live in the country they wish to control.

Lastly comes Profit = ISIS’s use of Jizya tax rates on non-Muslims, or people they think are not Muslim enough? Taxation of people who are not in their gang! Or the selling of assets that they have taken control of when they conquered the country that they currently control.

They may hide behind religion, or their ideology. Or indeed say that we will take care of the countries, or the states assets better then the previous regime. But the bottom line will always be, how can I benefit by these actions now that we are in charge.

Yes the west is guilty of the same offences, but at least we are honest [as far as possible] in pursuit of the same goals. We will use the ideology of democracy, capitalism, and socialism, yes we have even resorted to religious ideology when it suited. But all in the pursuit of profits.

The main problem and one that ISIS will find, they may be able to strut around and be able to do whatever they feel, but there is always a] some one with a bigger stick and b] if they do succeed and become stable enough to form a legitimate government. 1] They will be held accountable for their actions [I am not talking about an afterlife] I am talking about other countries and governments and the people that they now control.  2] They will have to rebuild and restore a decent standard of living for the majority of people who live in the country that they now control and lastly. 3] they will have to watch their backs, if was is in their eyes alright to overthrow a legitimate government by force, then they in turn can be overthrown by force.

Returning to the Paris killings, the majority killed and wounded at the pop concert were under thirty, probably the sort of people who believed in live and let live. They are just the sort of people who took part in the support Gaza marches. So in a way it was a home goal.

 

I think you have posted the wrong link there.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I don't think you have to do anything.

What you are being asked for, though, is only a very simple formulation that should come quite naturally:

"These guys are xyz. They believe abc. They are nuts. No sensible Muslim I know would have anythjing to do with them."

 

For instance:

"These guys are Qutbist. They believe in overthrowing the powers that be in Islamic lands, because Western ideologies were no replacement for the caliphate, and replacing them with a hellish Wahhabi theocracy. (My family is actually Wahhabi but) these guys are nuts. No sensible Muslim I know would have anythjing to do with them."

 

You should be able to see how that will comfort people who don't understand the complexities of Islamic religious tribalism. You don't have to.

  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens

Joie de Vivre wrote:
I don't think you have to do anything.

What you are being asked for, though, is only a very simple formulation that should come quite naturally:

"These guys are xyz. They believe abc. They are nuts. No sensible Muslim I know would have anythjing to do with them."

 

For instance:

"These guys are Qutbist. They believe in overthrowing the powers that be in Islamic lands, because Western ideologies were no replacement for the caliphate, and replacing them with a hellish Wahhabi theocracy. (My family is actually Wahhabi but) these guys are nuts. No sensible Muslim I know would have anythjing to do with them."

 

You should be able to see how that will comfort people who don't understand the complexities of Islamic religious tribalism. You don't have to.

I find that rather patronising. Yh, of course we don't have to but still "it'd be comforting"!! Why the hell should I should I need to comfort anyone? Going back to my initial post, why should I need to make up for other people's ignorance, instead of them learning themselves? If they asked a sensible question then I'd be more than willing to answer but to I shouldn't be associated with those people automatically and then have to "comfort" people because of it. 

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

I think there is a sort of aology fatigue setting in - I have noticed a lot of Muslims this time around saying why should they apologise etc, unlike in the past where it has often been seen as the thing to do (with a smaller minority saying they shouldn't need to).

It is probably also due to a greater understanding of the contrast with the attrocities committed elsewhere at around the same time which had different responses.

Take the Russian plane bombing, in which over 200 people were murdered. The common sentiment was that that was revenge by ISIS for its campaign in Syria (though curiously, the same sources often stated that Russia wasn't hitting ISIS...)

Then there is Beirut, multiple events in Iraq, Lebanon, Istanbul. Amazon didn't change the front page is solidarity for any of those attrocities.

Then there is also the declaration of war malarky... what has France (and the UK and the US) being doing since last year?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

True, but unfortunately it is bad news that sells papers.

Did you read the comments to article?

 

I didn't read them before.

As always you get a lot of bad comments and some good comments.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

As always you get a lot of bad comments and some good comments.

Just like people, You get good people and bad people. Unfortunately the bad people appear to be the most vocal.

Or as my teacher used to say, "empty vessels make the most noise." 

 

It's not easy. I struggle with my nafs if I can't control it then how can I teach any one anything. The struggle has taught me hate is futile, ignorence is confusion. And I have met so many non Muslims and Muslims who understand the reality of the situation and some who don't. I really don't care anymore i must fight my own demons.

i want my children to grow up knowing the truth about Islam that it is a matter of imaan, the love and respect of the Prophet Muhammed (saw). The heart must be Muslim then no amount of hate can break you. Of course we live in a society and thus we are affected by it and we want to be part of it, the hermetic lifestyle is not for everyone, then I would want my children to know what they are and in that knowledge keep their dignity and sanity and live as good humans in a world where the majority are good and to ignore that minority which hates.